Is profit different from unfair tax? Part 2 - Page 3

Arrian · November 5, 2003, 16:47

So all tools will be government property. If I want a hammer, I have to fill out a form, requesting one from the government.

Brilliant, Kid. You've solved the world's problems.

-Arrian

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 16:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
So all tools will be government property. If I want a hammer, I have to fill out a form, requesting one from the government.

Brilliant, Kid. You've solved the world's problems.

-Arrian

Holy whatchado Arrian. Do you read my posts? How the hell did you get that idea?

JohnT · November 5, 2003, 16:53

Kid, somebody will have to be the one who hands out the hammers.

Or do you expect us to find out who has the hammer and then try to get in on the list of folks who needs the hammer? If so, who keeps the list. They're the one with power, authority, the ability to exploit.

In short, how do you expect the hammer to be handled, inventoried, stored, etc? How are 2,000 hammers to be allocated among 300,000 citizens? Somebody has to keep track of them, and that person is the new exploiter in Kids system.... the exploiter that the system is supposed to do without.

And I'm still trying to figure out how I can live in this world, one with a minimum of twenty stores that sell hammers in a 5 mile radius (for less than 2 hours of minimum wage), and be considered exploited by the hammer merchants. It just blows my mind.

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 16:55

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
In short, how do you expect the hammer to be handled, inventoried, stored, etc? How are 2,000 hammers to be allocated among 300,000 citizens?

Prices. If you aren't going to read my posts don't comment on them.

JohnT · November 5, 2003, 16:59

Just like they are today. Brilliant, Kid: you trying to argue yourself into a third circle before the day is out?

Arrian · November 5, 2003, 16:59

I read your post, Kid.

You said tools would be community property.

-Arrian

JohnT · November 5, 2003, 17:01

But a commodity that is owned by all cannot have prices placed upon them, can they? For the price is merely what one individual would have to give another individual for the hammer, and with the community owning it, there is nobody to set the price.

Who has the pricing authority, Kid? Somebody has to, it just doesn't "happen."

The Andy-Man · November 5, 2003, 17:06

Quote:

Charge more for the newer ones.

so, basicly, you charge a higher price for newer, more in demand tools, and less for older less in demand ones.

So, what you are saying is, we have a free market system for the use of tools?
Maybe communism isn't so bad after all

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 18:05

Quote:

Originally posted by The Andy-Man

so, basicly, you charge a higher price for newer, more in demand tools, and less for older less in demand ones.

So, what you are saying is, we have a free market system for the use of tools?
Maybe communism isn't so bad after all

If you want to believe that that is a free market system that's fine.

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 18:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I read your post, Kid.

You said tools would be community property.

-Arrian

Well, you read that part anyway.

Aye. I have better things to do.

Kuciwalker · November 5, 2003, 18:08

Quote:

Aye. I have better things to do.

THEN DO THEM.

Stop reviving this thread.

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 18:08

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
But a commodity that is owned by all cannot have prices placed upon them, can they? For the price is merely what one individual would have to give another individual for the hammer, and with the community owning it, there is nobody to set the price.

Who has the pricing authority, Kid? Somebody has to, it just doesn't "happen."

The price is set by the planners. It provides information about demand for the good or service and it allocates the good or service to where it is needed or desired the most.

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 18:09

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker

Quote:

Aye. I have better things to do.

THEN DO THEM.

Stop reviving this thread.

You don't have to keep reading you know.

rah · November 5, 2003, 18:12

So the planners will become the exploiters? And please don't sprinkle your fairy dust and have us believe that their won't be any corruption involved there.

Japher · November 5, 2003, 18:13

why do I keep opening this thread!!!!

JohnT · November 5, 2003, 18:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious

The price is set by the planners.

Also known as "controllers" or "exploiters."

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 18:15

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
So the planners will become the exploiters? And please don't sprinkle your fairy dust and have us believe that their won't be any corruption involved there.

The level of corruption depends on the legal system not the economic system.

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 18:15

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT

Also known as "controllers" or "exploiters."

I've had enough spam for right now.

JohnT · November 5, 2003, 18:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious

The level of corruption depends on the legal system not the economic system.

No, the level of corruption depends upon the character of the people holding the positions of power. Given that people who seek power tend to do so with the purpose of removing other people's power, this does not bode well for a "corruption free" society.

rah · November 5, 2003, 18:24

World's most famous planner.

The Andy-Man · November 5, 2003, 18:30

Quote:

The price is set by the planners. It provides information about demand for the good or service and it allocates the good or service to where it is needed or desired the most.

but this is what companies do already

You want a rveloution just so we can have the same system?

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 18:34

Quote:

Originally posted by The Andy-Man

but this is what companies do already

You want a rveloution just so we can have the same system?

I'm not proposing a free market system. The prices are fixed.

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 18:35

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
World's most famous planner.

Don't you mean infamous?

The Andy-Man · November 5, 2003, 18:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious

I'm not proposing a free market system. The prices are fixed.

you said that they are fixed by the planners, in response to demand.

current prices are 'fixed' by the companies i response to demand....

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 18:38

Quote:

Originally posted by The Andy-Man

you said that they are fixed by the planners, in response to demand.

current prices are 'fixed' by the companies i response to demand....

If the market is competitive the prices are not fixed. The competitive firm is a price taker not a price maker.

JohnT · November 5, 2003, 18:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious

I've had enough spam for right now.

And I've had enough of your constant dismissal of my point, which is that your "system" is set up in a way where a single individual has control over entire segments of the economy, i.e. the "Roto Tiller" planner and the hammer planner. This is a system that will lead to exploitation the likes that you have never witnessed, and, apparently, studiously ignore in your readings of the history of practical application of Communist ideology and many ancient philosophies in which control of the masses was the main goal.

For what it seems your after is a modernized fusion of Communism and Confucianism, where educated society is involved almost exclusively in the planning the lives of the uneducated masses, giving birth to a monolithic bureaucracy the likes of which have been unseen in the history of Man.

Fvck that. I have no more desire to be the Hammer Planner than I have desire to subject myself to the whims of such a "civil servant." I prefer a "chaotic" uncontrolled system where I have a choice of 20+ different places to purchase, using a portion of my labor (earnings), to get said hammer. And to keep it, without worrying about reallocating it back in the community pool of hammers.

The Andy-Man · November 5, 2003, 18:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious

If the market is competitive the prices are not fixed. The competitive firm is a price taker not a price maker.

but if your 'planners' are responding to demand issues, then they are in the same position, they are price takers aswell. I can't see how they are not.

JohnT · November 5, 2003, 18:45

If you invent something, do you automatically become the only "planner" for that item in the entire world? Or is there an "inventions planner" that allocates what can be invented, where, and by whom? Or do they just allocate your invention to the point where you get 1/6,000,000,000th (or whatever the global population of the time of invention) of the financial gain from its use?

Kidicious · November 5, 2003, 18:55

Quote:

Originally posted by The Andy-Man
but if your 'planners' are responding to demand issues, then they are in the same position, they are price takers aswell. I can't see how they are not.

I see your point. The object is to produce the goods and services that society needs. In a communist system prices could be used to help planners determine what those needs are. The prices would also determine the efficient allocation of goods already produced.

The prices would not be the only determinant though. Let's say that the videos were checked out for $10 a night and there were no shortages or surpluses at that price. That would indicate that people have a preference for videos. However, there are higher priorities than videos. Food, housing, police, fire fighting etc. have to come first. When resources become available more videos should be produced and the price should be lowered.

The Andy-Man · November 5, 2003, 19:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious

I see your point. The object is to produce the goods and services that society needs. In a communist system prices could be used to help planners determine what those needs are. The prices would also determine the efficient allocation of goods already produced.

Which is basicly what prices do already, if there are high prices there is a shortage, so more companies produce that item, increasing supply and cutting the price, the cut price indicates over supply, less companies produce etc

Quote:

The prices would not be the only determinant though. Let's say that the videos were checked out for $10 a night and there were no shortages or surpluses at that price. That would indicate that people have a preference for videos. However, there are higher priorities than videos. Food, housing, police, fire fighting etc. have to come first. When resources become available more videos should be produced and the price should be lowered.

So, when there is a high demand for something (like food), it gets put up the priority list, ie receives more input from the economy to produce more output to fill the demand. Isn't this what happens already?