Everything That Has A Beginning Has An End: Matrix Spoiler Thread. - Page 2

Provost Harrison · November 6, 2003, 16:39

No, but The One is used to repopulate Zion. I think the Merovingian is a program that corrupted in a similar way to Smith many an aeon ago - although not quite having the same effect.

Bereta_Eder · November 6, 2003, 16:46

true. but repopulate zion and then? what happens to him?
also based to the theory i mentioned, he choose to save himslef and his "trinity" and let zion fry. is he used to repopulate zion if he chosen that? (im asking dont know)

remember persephone said she wanted to feel what she and the frenchman felt originally when she asked neo to kiss her like if she was trinity. also the awesome powers of the mergovian and I think (im not sure about this) the frenchman telling neo that he is not the only one of his kind?

Timexwatch · November 6, 2003, 16:53

If the Mergovian is the old Neo, where's the rest of him (keep in mind I haven't seen it yet)?

Bereta_Eder · November 6, 2003, 16:55

rest of him?

Provost Harrison · November 6, 2003, 19:25

Well Neo is a human, and thus has a body. The Merovingian does not...

Remember the speech by The Architect in Releaded - the function of the one is to return to the source where the information gathered will be used to restart the matrix, and The One then selects so many people to repopulate Zion...but Revolutions actually maintained the loop yet broke the status quo - so in the end The Oracle got what she wanted...harmony.

Sandman · November 6, 2003, 19:36

The Merovingian is not a previous One. The Oracle explains quite clearly that he is a program, like her.

Sandman · November 6, 2003, 19:55

I think part of the problem was the loose narrative structure. The Matrix had an extremely tight and cohesive plot, with the vast majority of the film being told from the point of view of Trinity, Morpheus and Neo.

The plots of the sequels created too many side-characters, locations, plots, relationships and so on. They were unable to wrap them up even in two movies, a computer game, and a load of animated shorts. The need to jump between a whole horde of characters undermined the relentless pace of the film.

Bereta_Eder · November 6, 2003, 20:07

maybe the merogivian has a body? maybe after he is used as the one the machines can let him be a program in the matrix without a body? rememebr the choice the architect has goiven to all the ones is to save themselves and trinity IIRC

I dont remember the oracle explaining he is a program

i think the 3 matrix successfully superceded the weaknes of Neo (being all powerfull) by transporting the plot to the real world which tuned out to be more fantastic than the matrix! IMO But i agree than the 1 matrix was the one.

Sandman · November 6, 2003, 20:22

Quote:

I dont remember the oracle explaining he is a program

She says something along the lines of 'he is a very dangerous program, one of the oldest of us'.

Bereta_Eder · November 6, 2003, 20:27

Hmm I see.

player1 · November 7, 2003, 06:16

I think that in order to undstand the end of 3rd Matrix, it's very importatnt to remember the Architect dialoge from 2nd movie.

Provost Harrison · November 7, 2003, 08:21

Well I remember the Architect's discussion and even managed to get hold of a transcript of it and make sense out of his rather verbose script. So I had no problems understanding what was going on in the film, but I would have liked to have seen more going on within The Matrix. It did seem to lack a certain Jenny Sayqua that the first two had nonetheless.

Provost Harrison · November 7, 2003, 08:25

Here it is, in fact...

Quote:

Architect: Hello Neo

Neo: Who are you?

Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question maybe the most pertinent you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant.

Neo: Why am I here?

Architect: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent in the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden deciduously avoided it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexcerably here.

Neo: You haven’t answered my question.

Architect: Quite right. Interesting, that was quicker then the others.

Neo: Others? (What others? How many? Answer me)

Architect: The Matrix is older then you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next. In which case this is the sixth version.

Neo: Then there are only two possible explanations, either no one told me, or no one knows.

Architect: Precisely, as you are undoubtedly gathering the anomaly is systemic. Creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

Neo: Choice, the problem is choice.

Architect: The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect; it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it, Based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However I was again frustrated my failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another, and intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo: The Oracle

Architect: Please, as I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at an unconscious level. While this answered function it was obviously fundamentally flawed thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly. That if left unchecked might threaten the system itself, ergo those that refuse the program while the minority if unchecked would cause an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo: This is about Zion

Architect: You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo: Bull

Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it. The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix. Which, coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo: You won’t let it happen, you can’t. You need human beings to survive.

Architect: There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However the relevant issue is whether you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world. It is interesting reading your reactions. Your 5 predecessors were by design based on a similar predication a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way your experience is far more specific, Vis a vie love.

Neo: Trinity

Architect: Apropo, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo: No

Architect: Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end. There are two doors, the door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion, the door to your left leads back to the matrix to her and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know we you are going to do don’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth, she is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.

Neo: If I were you, I would hope that we don’t meet again.

Architect: We won’t.

laurentius · November 7, 2003, 09:28

What/Who is Sati?

Gatekeeper · November 8, 2003, 03:23

I thought the third installment was OK. That said, I think it's fine that the machines and humanity have found a tentative peace. Now the two species can get their arses to work cleaning up a ruined Earth! (I thought the brief glimpse Trinity had of a clear, blue sky with a sliver of the Moon visible was a highlight of Revolutions.)

Gatekeeper

St Leo · November 8, 2003, 17:35

This is going in my blog tonight:

Quote:

Okay, just got back from seeing Matrix Revolutions. First, some thoughts on trailers.

The Alamo - "We'll show the world what patriots are made of". Excuse me? The world? Patriots? Mexico outlaws slavery, so the [effers] in some goddessforsaken northern province betray their country -- teh slavery teh forevah -- cowardly hole up in some mission, and are promptly whooped by 3000 troops of General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna ("One of the largest armies ever assembled." according to the movie). Patriots my [rear].

Troy - Ignoring for the moment the completely implausibly-sized fleet in the zoom-out, Helen did not "betray her king". Meh. The movie's basically an excuse for Brad Pitt and Orlando Bloom to prance around half-naked, so whatever. I'm not going to see it anyways.

The Matrix by the Wachowski Brothers
Secularity: 6
Technophilia: 10
Tilt: 7
Average: 7.7

Zee runs around Zion with her rocket launcher fighting machines and generally kicking [rear]. What? What do you mean that wasn't the main part of the movie? Who cares? It was the good part of the movie.

Atrocious things:
-two Boromir-style deaths
-young Anakin wannabe
-Christian symbolism

First of all, characters should never eulogize themselves. When they are deaded, they should die. That's one of the reasons Kill Bill is such [an effing] amazing movie. When Anita Green gets a knife through her chest, she doesn't give a five-minute speech. Five-minute speeches insult the audience and sell the movie short.

I won't dignify the plucky Anakin-wannabe with a write-up. Well, not any more of one. Honestly.

WTF @ all the crosses at the end of the movie? I mean, seriously, the movie's not Christian in its worldview. The are three sides and none of them are Good or Evil. Okay, other Christian-wannabe stuff like Simmons' Hyperion, Herbert's Dune, and Miller's Canticle for Leibowitz aren't exactly black-and-white either, but the Matrix is practically RGB.

Of course, if they are going for Judaism 4.0, they don't need to keep the same kernel worldview, but why would they keep Judaism 2.0's imagery?

Bah. All the Oracle scenes are lame. I kinda like the Indian family, but the subway is lame. The lobby scene was done way better in the original Matrix. The S&M club scene -- yay for lesbians who dance while holding each other's nipples -- is self-parody, but I like self-parody.

The choral pieces are very nice, but the score generally is non-memorable. Oh, and I've taken far better pics of clouds than they could come up with.

Interestingly enough, Smith's monologue at the end was the first bit of philosophy I've noticed in the entire trilogy. It raises all the correct points and Neo does answer it correctly.

Love, Peace, Truth, etc. are constructs just as artificial as the Matrix. So what? Bingo.

Watch it if you've seen the other two. IMHO, Matrix Reloaded is the best movie in the trilogy, but this one's okay too.

sprucemoose3311 · November 8, 2003, 19:51

So neo was the antivirus

THe matrix is a mainframe that has the potential to download programs onto people (people act like computers in this case). Thus when the One program is downloaded on Neo, he retains the potentials of the program outside of the matrix. The One is only limited by his mind in both the matrix and the real world.

Now how did the One program develope? When the first one was used as a means of control over zion (as would the rest of the Ones) he felt a societal love for every person alive. The program on him was copied onto the next person chosen to be the on. This creates a continual feedback loop which the movies imply that the One program becomes more powerful each time. The machines answer with better agnets and more machines (to attack zion). The side affect of the One becoming more powerful is the general love for the people of the world narrows down until the One feels completely atttached to another... Trinity. That explains all the love junk in the last2 movies.

What the movies come down to is about two or three dozen philosophies intertwined within modern day computer concepts.

I see only a handful of questions after revolutions:

1. Everything the oracle says is important in revolutions, she tells neo he simply did not want to die, so he lived (because of the one program). Neo appears to be dead or unconscience at the end, has he finally chosen to die?

2. See Number 1, is Merv (the french guy) a previous one who has chosen to live? If so how would he have seved persephone? Either she was originally a program of Merv knows something that we dont know. If persephone was the lover of Merv (and if he was a One), then potentially anyone could have a program written on them.

Sandman · November 8, 2003, 20:54

It seems to me that the Wachowskis were trying too hard to create an 'expanded universe' and all the merchandising opportunities that entails.

The Empire Strikes Back introduced four new main characters; Yoda, Lando, Boba Fett and the Emperor.

The Matrix Reloaded introduced thirteen new main characters; the Merovingian, Persephone, the Architect, Lock, Link, Link's girlfriend, Niobe, Counsellor Hammond, the Keymaker, the Kid and that real-world Agent Smith.

Edit- and Seraph!

Fewer characters = more character. The lesson is simple. Including too many characters will lower the quality of the films, and thus reduce the interest in the expanded universe. Just let it happen 'naturally'.

Bereta_Eder · November 8, 2003, 21:05

You could say they wanted to expand the merchandise. But lots of the characters were essential to bring the 3rd matrix to conclusion IMO. For example Lock was necessairy to reach the architect, the frenchman necessairy to reach Lock etc etc
But I agree it seemed a bit "forced".

mrmitchell · November 8, 2003, 21:28

I haven't seen any of them at all. So, is the overwhelming majority opinion not to watch this one? I'm going to get around to seeing the original sometime...right after filling in that 30 foot crater in the yard.

Sandman · November 8, 2003, 21:56

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
You could say they wanted to expand the merchandise. But lots of the characters were essential to bring the 3rd matrix to conclusion IMO. For example Lock was necessairy to reach the architect, the frenchman necessairy to reach Lock etc etc
But I agree it seemed a bit "forced".

Ok, but even if we keep the plot basically the same, there are still plenty of unnecessary characters.

Link: he was kinda cool, but it was totally OTT to introduce us to his home and his girl. Should have stayed more of a sidekick.

Counsellor Hammond: Did not need to be developed at all. Could have stayed distant.

Seraph: He's not in the first film, even though the Oracle was. Let's face it, he was just in it to add an Asian face and another cool outfit. Was not needed.

Agent Smith's human form: He wasn't really needed. Rather than writing most of the hoverships out due to his treachery, they coulda had them at the battle for Zion instead.

The Kid: Unnecessary, had they just written the battle of Zion a bit differently.

Niobe: Also unneeded. The Freeway chase could have been written a bit differently, and it could have been Morpheus piloting the Hammer instead of her. Although I concede, that out of the new 'good' characters, she probably deserves to be left in the most. If she had been left in, she should have accompanied the main characters much more, in order to add a new dynamic to their relationship.

Oerdin · November 8, 2003, 22:01

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
oh great perhaps we are twins

If Smith and Neo are twins then maybe Paiktiss and Slowhand are twins.

Bereta_Eder · November 8, 2003, 22:02

Yep I agree most of those were not needed. Like all those tiresome long battles in 2 and 3 werent needed either. They could have used this time to forge a more solid plot (if they could).

Oerdin · November 8, 2003, 22:07

BTW Was I the only felt like the script was written about five minutes before it was filmed? It seemed like they riped off scenes from half of the other sci-fi movies out there-Aliens, Star Wars, Dune, heck you name it and they stile a scene from it. The Whocowskis left so many loss ends and failed to explain so much that I have to wonder if they put much thought in to this movie at all.

Q Classic · November 8, 2003, 23:28

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/...solutions.html

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/film/matrix50.html

Ned · November 9, 2003, 01:56

Too much deus ex machina for my tastes. Even as I watched the final dual with Smith, I knew it would not end with a victory by Neo. So, what was the point of the fight at all?

Ditto his ability to destroy the machines by waving his hand. Since this did not turn out to be a matrx within a matrix, how could he possibly do that?

Once he had superhuman powers outside the matrix, the movie lost its point. It was no longer man against the machine, but demigod or comic book superhero against the machine. It became ridiculous.

Zero · November 9, 2003, 02:18

matrix is whack yo.

sux0r!!!11!!!!11!!!!!!1

Sava · November 9, 2003, 11:04

I for one enjoyed the third Matrix (and the other two). I thought Revolutions was amazing and a good conclusion to the story. It also left certain hints for possibly more movies. The thing I hated about the second one was that stupid Zion part with the dancing and Morpheus acting like he was ****ing Moses or something. But the third was great.

There was such a parallel to the Christ myth. Humanity's struggle versus evil and Neo dying for their past sins (BTW, you would have had to have seen the Animatrix to really understand the nature of humanity's sins that started the war between the machines.)

Provost Harrison · November 9, 2003, 12:41

Yes, I think a lot of people are being too harsh but it is cool to be grumpy nowadays

Q Classic · November 9, 2003, 12:46

i'm hearing all sorts of bad things about this new matrix.

surely it can't be as bad as the game...