This is the Dawning of a New Ancient Era

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

WOW!

I just got Conquests yesterday. I haven't had time (thanks GF) to play a game past even entirely through the ancient era, but I can still say: WOW!

MAJOR changes are afoot, at least on Monarch level.

I'd like to make a few observations/speculations. I wouldn't say any of this is definitive, just some hunches. We'll only know the strength of each civ and each trait as time goes by and we each have the chance to play the epic game a bit more. Still, here's a few things I noticed that I think indicate that this game is almost Civ4:

Seafaring The seafarers, and to a lesser extent, the expanionists, have a major upper hand in the ancient era, and I do mean major. Sending two or more Curraghs (Carracks? forget the spelling) to scout coastlines will bring you tech upon tech upon tech long before most civs ever meet each other. Playing as the Dutch a bit, I found that of 10 other civs, only the English were on my level - almost. I was consistently 2 techs ahead of most of my neighbors - and this is with a 10% research rate. I had 6 or 7 techs that the French and Germans simply didn't have. Furthermore, I knew where everyone was MUCH more quickly than I would have known by scouting across the land and potentially getting killed by barbarians. Thanks, Atari, for putting no barbarians at sea!

Agriculture For all you REXers out there, this is a major, major benefit. Combined with granaries (and most of the agricultural civs start with Pottery, right? That's how it seemed to me, but I didn't keep notes) you basically have an uber-settler/worker pump homeland, and you have it in no time. I've rarely done as impressive REXing as I did last night playing as the Dutch and Incas.

Tech Freedom at last! 50 turns to save gold, but without the frenetic tech race that vanilla Civ/PTW had - thanks completely to the push-backed communications trading, the fact that AI seafarers don't seem to build carracks (I didn't see any, that's for sure) and the reduced number of expanionists - it's very easy to crank your tech way up and not run a deficit once your core is down. This seems especially potent with agricultural civs and their easy REXing.

This means, in essence, you can both be the tech leader AND prepare for your massive warrior->sword upgrade. In my opinion, you can do both. I haven't tried the upgrade yet, mind you, and I know it's more expensive. But as both the Dutch and the Incas, I had a significant tech lead and more money in the bank than I'm used to having - and I've been using the 40-turn gold saving plan consistently now for at least 3 months.

Alphabet Research this at 50 turns. It's still ludicrously expensive. I don't mind though, as this fits in well with my preferred/accustomed-to strategy.

Philosophy No need on Monarch to crank up the tech rate on Writing to get here - but DO get here. One free tech just from getting philosophy first? If you're seafaring and have the basic techs out of the way, you will become the tech leader. This is golden, golden. The free tech is good for whatever you want - Literature or Map Making would be the most logical choices in my view, but who doesn't want a free tech? And it's easy to get.

The AI It might be easier to get ahead in the ancient era, but the AI seems vastly improved, as well, at least in terms of building priorities. There are a few changes worth noting:

- AI attitude: Almost all the AIs were polite towards me, on Monarch level. A few were cautious; none were ever annoyed. Of course, I didn't do as much building warriors/archers and stealing their workers last night, so maybe that's just coincidence.

- AI build priorities: Whoa! MAJOR changes here, for sure. Solidly REXing last night as the Incas, I saw American cities near my core that I wanted to flip. So, I built 2 or 3 temples near the Americans, thinking that would do the job. Well! I was unpleasantly surprised when a size 4 city of MINE flipped to THEM. And it was near an American city whose culture hadn't expanded! Obviously, the Americans at least now have other priorities other than just blinding sending settlers off into the midst (yes, there was plenty of land still to settle).

Another oddity I observed: the Aztecs, sending workers AHEAD of a settler to PREPARE for a city! Or perhaps, to prepare for an invasion of my core. Either way, I saw Aztec workers building roads where there was no settler! Weird... this bears further investigation. Additionally, when I moved a settler into a blank square to take advantage of those newly built roads, once I built my city, the AI workers MOVED... they didn't idiotically complete the roads they were working on, as they were now in my city radius!

Volcanos These things erupt ALL THE TIME. I will not build a city near them, ever. I don't care about the 3 shields; it's not worth the cost of a whole city. Furthermore, they're all over the place! Seems like more volcanos than there are in the real world.

Tobacco I hope Warpstorm makes this look real pretty, because otherwise, it's almost pointless. OK, I rightfully deserve scorn for that comment; but it could be way more useful, given what tobacco does in RL.

Marsh ARRRGH! I love it, though. No free terrain improvements for building a city here! Has the potential to create great natural barriers...

I AM TOTALLY IN LOVE WITH THIS GAME. And I am going to have to rethink many basic strategies.

(I am going to change the names and city names of some of the civilizations... but not their traits or cultural linking. I know this is totally unimportant)

I have a feeling that a patch will be coming soon that seriously tones down seafaring, agricultural, and volcanos. That's just a hunch. If the seafarers started with a free Curragh, they would kick serious behind. I know it's expensive but I feel it could be made even more expensive.

In brief, the ancient age now seems as much about Culture and trading as it does about preparing for war. There's no mad "race to the bottom" in terms of scrambling for tech. The player CAN actually LEAD in tech. How valuable that is or not remains to be seen.

One final note. It seems as though the player is no longer notified when another civ is working on a Wonder. Is this just something in "preferences" I forgot to turn on, or is this a new feature of the game? If so, heh heh heh, cool. Adds a nice element of surprise.

[Arrian]

I think the wonder notification is a preference, yeah.

Interesting info. Thanks.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Still haven't your copy yet, eh Arrian? heh heh heh... I've been copying MOST of my strategy from YOU, and I think you're in for some big surprises... I really can't stress it enough in a simple post.

Unfortunately, I'm applying to college, trying to get a raise, trying to get a new apartment AND planning to wipe 2 computers and reinstall everything, so I don't have time to develop a comprehensive strategy. But I am going to try giving building, rather than agression, a new shot.

After all, if the AI does indeed place greater emphasis on culture now - and it may be premature to say that it does; I haven't gone into the editor and looked at the build preferences - then good old religious and scientific might be as powerful as seafaring, agricultural and industrious.

[Arrian]

Oh I've no doubt I will have some adjusting to do. I look forward to it, though, if it really does shift things back toward the "builder" side of the spectrum.

Too early to draw any firm conclusions yet - we all need to play several games to get a feel for the changes.

Amazon now informs me that my order will be shipped "soon." Whatever that means.

-Arrian

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Arrian
Amazon now informs me that my order will be shipped "soon." Whatever that means.

-Arrian

It means "Not now."

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Arrian

Amazon now informs me that my order will be shipped "soon." Whatever that means.

-Arrian

That's why I cancelled by Amazon order last night and walked the five blocks to Gamespot.

[TechWins]

There are way too many volcanoes in the game. It's not even realistic, neither fun. I haven't been effected by them yet, but by the amount of them in the game I can only guess that will be happening soon. I like the idea of having them, because it adds more strategy to the game. However, there are just far too many in the game. Not to mention that lava gets spewed all over the map. I guess I'll just have to live through it.

Besides all of that, Yahweh, have you noticed the AI still not taking notice to the volcanoes? I mean the AI still appears to build next to volcanoes without any regard. I wish the AI were able to recognize that building next to a volcanoe may not be the best idea.

I really like the marshes, though. Just another terrain of having to deal with, and they seem to appear fairly realistically, too.

Having the technology max cost incread to 50 definitely helps out. A change that I believe most mod people made in Civ3/PtW.

Also, it is an option for Wonder Initiatin Pop-Up. Check your preferences.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

It's true. I did see a number of AI cities built near volcanos. And WAAAAY too many volcanos in general. I hope a patch will correct that. Or we here at 'Poly come to some sort of consensus re: volcanos.

[General Ludd]

I started one game with 3 volcanos next to my first city, about 3 turns into the game I get a message that one of them has become active . A couple turns later, I mysteriously win the game by conquest. Was it a bug related to my civilization being destroyed by a volcano, or was it some other bug? Eitherway, I got a pretty good score for winning on the fifth turn.

[Arrian]

Sounds like a bug alright.

-Arrian

[OPD]

Originally posted by Osweld
I started one game with 3 volcanos next to my first city, about 3 turns into the game I get a message that one of them has become active . A couple turns later, I mysteriously win the game by conquest. Was it a bug related to my civilization being destroyed by a volcano, or was it some other bug? Eitherway, I got a pretty good score for winning on the fifth turn.

it'd be even funnier if it was on SID level

[Nikolai]

Maybe there was more civs that started near volcanoes?

Advisor: Sir, we have got messages from our gods that they have decided to do us a favour for our first class worship the last hundred years.
King: Oh, yeah?
Advisor: Yes, sir. We seem to be the only civilization left on Earth.
King: Hmmm... Not bad. Anything more?
Advisor: Well, no sir.
King: Take a holyday then. Dismissed!

[Catt]

For my initial test game, I selected "middle" world features on everything (continents, medium water, temperate, 4 Billion, etc.) I hold a decent size territory and have explored a good chunk of my landmass, as well as circumnavigated the other landmass (though no inland exploration. I've only seen two volacanoes -- so I am not seeing the over-abundance that several people describe.

Catt

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Catt
For my initial test game, I selected "middle" world features on everything (continents, medium water, temperate, 4 Billion, etc.) I hold a decent size territory and have explored a good chunk of my landmass, as well as circumnavigated the other landmass (though no inland exploration. I've only seen two volacanoes -- so I am not seeing the over-abundance that several people describe.

Catt

I too have selected "middle" setting for everything, except my typical Huge map. After 4 games played enough to explore a whole continent, I've seen (if I recall correctly, which I may not):

- Dutch: 1 volcano (small continent)
- Incas: 3 volcanos (large continent, not totally explored)
- Portugese: 2 volcanos? (very large continent, not totally explored)
- Dutch: 4 volcanos (very large continent)

Note that, as the Dutch, I really saw only the coastlines. So there may have been more volcanos internally.

The important point is that I often saw 2-3 squares covered in lava. And this is well before the year 0. So I think that's pretty significant, signicant enough that I may never build a city near a volcano... although I may plant colonies for iron or whatelse I may need.

Indeed, volcanos may finally make colonies worthwhile!

[RobC]

Originally posted by Osweld
I started one game with 3 volcanos next to my first city, about 3 turns into the game I get a message that one of them has become active . A couple turns later, I mysteriously win the game by conquest. Was it a bug related to my civilization being destroyed by a volcano, or was it some other bug? Eitherway, I got a pretty good score for winning on the fifth turn.

Sounds kind of like what happened when I accidentally set the 'king' flag on settlers in one of my mods...

[conmcb25]

Well I played for about three hours last night and just got out of the Ancient Era.

I got to agree with Yahweh Sabaoth, the whole ERA felt a LOT different.

They (Firaxis, Breakaway)may have done this one right!

I remember seeing one AI city right by a volcano and I didn't seem to see too many but then, I just had one in my area and avoided it.

I did all my seetings in the middle but went with Pangea (sp?)

More later right now I really gotta work! (dam RL getting in the way of CIV! )

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I played quite a bit more this morning. About 9 to 10 inconclusive games. No one game longer than 15 minutes. Should I have given up each game? No. But I was dissappointed by having the almost-glorious games I got in the last two days be followed by standard nonsense...

...A few tips:

- Curraghs are like scouts. Use discretion when using the numeric keypad to make sure you don't accidently tap your curragh into unsafe waters. I did this 3 times this morning!

- Still build warriors. Ok, those curraghs and scouts can do a lot of work for you - especially the curraghs. But there's still barbarians in the game.

...A few things I noticed:

- Curraghs and Scouts are NOT necessarily the be-all end-all of the game I was first impressed they would be.

- Does it take LONGER to mine now? It seems to take a lot longer, or maybe I'm just completely insane.

- Shizzle my nizzle. You WILL be the first to get Philosophy, almost no matter what. Just go ahead and research it.

- Alphabet is now a widespread starting tech. But it's still very very valuable in AI estimation. I got a whole sleiugh of techs trading away Alphabet. But I would recommend trading it away for whatever you can get when you meet a civ - but there's a whole lot of other civs with alphabet in the world now.

- Damn, those agricultural civs can grow! Lordy! I gave the Celts a brief shot this morning and quit when I realized they were on an "Australia" (tiny continent). But I intend to give them their due. In the hands of the AI, the Celts seem fairly impressive - which irks me, as I found them often too impressive in PTW as well, although for a different reason - too large an army in PTW, too large in population and REXing in Conquests.

- The Dutch totally rock. The Dutch may very well be a "super civ". In the hands of the AI, I've seen a mix of tiny Netherlands and huge Netherlands.

This morning I gave up WAY too easily a number of times. I just wanted to screw around mostly, so it's no big deal. This weekend (hopefully - RL is pretty hectic for me these days) I will sit down and play out either the Dutch, Spanish, Celts or English through the Ancient Era at least.

Please, everyone, continue jotting down impressions here...

[TheArsenal]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

- The Dutch totally rock. The Dutch may very well be a "super civ". In the hands of the AI, I've seen a mix of tiny Netherlands and huge Netherlands.

It sounds like you used the same attention deficit disorder method of checking out the game I did. I played each new civ for a handful of turns, then turned my full attention to what I was most interested in: the Pac WWII conquest.

I have to agree with you that the Dutch feel pretty strong, at least in the early part of the quick games I played. I did not get as far as the Swiss Mercenary, but on paper it is obviously a good UU. The Seafaring trait over all seems to be fairly strong for large random maps. The curragh gives a much better feel of the world than with land units alone, no matter what type of map, and beating other civs to first contact is always advantageous in trade - and there was no question I definitely had a better understanding of the globe than any AI who doesn't explore by sea as vigorously (patch?). It does change the build order decision process quite a bit as well. I had to decide what ratio of land scouting to sea scouting I wanted and decide how to balance that with settler building and city buildings.

I saw no abundance of volcanoes, just a handful on a large map. Based on the proximity of cities near them however, the AI doesn’t seem to be afraid of lava filled streets. Almost every desert I saw contained at least one Oasis, often more, which turned out to be quite a few on my maps. Tobacco seemed to be in abundance as well. And, it is probably just a random map generation fluke, but iron looked to be in scarcity. As I love to play Persia, this gave me pause.

[Stuie]

These things are very cool.

I'm playing the Byzantines for my first game (180x180, 31 Civs , Monarch). I had no iron, and a rather strong Egypt to my south (with pikemen/Med Inf). What to do? What to do?

I started a pre-build while researching Chivalry, and ta-da!! Knights Templar becomes my first successful wonder build, and Crusaders start appearing every five turns. Luckily I also found a Civ way to my south (using a trusty Curragh) that was willing to trade Iron, so finally the assault on Egypt began with Crusaders supplemented by some hastily built knights. Throw in some trebuchets and I had a rollicking good time relieving Egypt of several cities.

Then I notice patch after patch on the mini-map turning German blue! They had beaten me to Zeus ages ago, and the next thing I know there are two stacks of Ancient Cavalry on my doorstep.... all with five or six hitpoints.

Luckily I used a Greek defense (as in, ally with Germany vs. Greece) to distract the Germans. I thought this would break the Greeks, and leave the Germans to deal with later. WRONG. The Greeks slaughtered the Germans and I ended up having to sue for peace at slightly unreasonable terms.

Did I mention I'm having FUN?

[DCMike]

I've just started my first game on a large map, haven't explored much at all and already discovered 3 volcanoes. Two of those have already erupted and one of those is already active again! Cool eruption graphics by the way!

[Saint Marcus]

is REXing too easy now with the Agricultural trait? Seems a tad unbalancing (both in the hands of AI and human players).

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

The AI agricultural powers I've seen often REX like mad. On the other hand, I saw the Americans REX like mad in general. I even saw the Germans - normally quite pathetic - REX quite well. It could just be that the AI is better at REXing now.

But agricultural does seem to make it very, very easy for the human to expand as well. This would seem to make the Celts and Sumerians superb civs on a large map - assuming the AI does as good a job with culture now as I presume it does.

[Stuie]

I haven't noticed the Agricultural Civs doing particularly well in my game. But the map is kind of crowded, and the Celts were stuck on a little tiny island.

[Toaster4k]

How did you manage to play with 31 civs in the same map? ican only play vs 11 other civs

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Toaster4k
How did you manage to play with 31 civs in the same map? ican only play vs 11 other civs

You need to use the editor. On the "World Size" tab, just change the number of Civs to 31.

Only thing is, you need a decent size map to do this or you will quickly run out of room. Also you need to lower the start distance on the same tab, or the game will not be able to place all the Civs and some will end up right next to each other.

I used a map size of 180x180, lowered the start distance to 18, and played the game on large continents.

[Toaster4k]

thanks, ill try it as soon as my GF finish using my PC. i dont want to try this on a p200 mmx with 64 meg of ram :/

[Stuie]

Tell her to get the hell off your computer!!! That should be C3C only.

[Toaster4k]

i dont wish to declare a war without at elast 2 mutual protection pact, cause if it prove to be a wrong decision, briding with fur for a peace treaty might be to much for my minister of finace (my wallet)

[Theseus]

Wow.

[eric2075]

My first Conquest game is at Emperor as the Sumerians. I was kind of hurrying through it and got so far behind I was starting to think I should give it up. But I got caught up and now I'm the tech leader in the middle of the midievel age.

I'm not used to being able to research on my own at this point and still keep up but somehow I think I'm doing it.

I like my first impression of Conquests because I think it's going to be easier for the builder. Maybe a little easier in general.