Conquests AI changes - Page 2

Thoth · November 9, 2003, 12:39

More trading oddities: The AI no longer devalues "Wonder only" optional techs after the wonder has been built. Last night I swapped Free Artistry in exchange for a lux and GTP........several turns after I'd finished Shakespeare's Theatre.

Saint Marcus · November 9, 2003, 12:54

hmm, that doesn't seem right. Usually, I only got 10gc for that tech, after I build the wonder. I hope it's just a fluke...

Thoth · November 9, 2003, 13:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
hmm, that doesn't seem right. Usually, I only got 10gc for that tech, after I build the wonder. I hope it's just a fluke...

Agreed, 10g is what I would have gotten for the tech in PTW. In the attached save, call up the Mayans and renegotiate the luxury deal. He'll pay dyes, ivory all his cash on hand plus gpt for wines, spices and Free Artistry. Smoking Jaguar will not accept the deal without Free Artistry.

dexters · November 9, 2003, 19:37

I have noticed this as well.

The diplomat · November 9, 2003, 21:41

Is the AI more aggressive? I just played an epic game as the Celts at Monarch level, and lost in under 7 mn! I only had 2 cities, when my German neighbor rushes me with a bunch of archers and wipes me out! That has never happened to me before.

dexters · November 9, 2003, 21:53

AI agressive level is now adjustable. But my concern really is under high agressive settings, it will be a constant war game. This is something players can already do pre C3C. Just never make peace with anyone.

I'm assuming you played in standard settings, which is what I prefer to play. As far as I can tell ,agressiveness is unchanged. The traditionally agressive civs will cotinue to be instigators of wars.

But genrally, the AI is smarter when it comes to alliances. I had the celts call me up right before its last city was taken asking for a military alliance. Was it trying to save its skin? Going out in style? If the AI can make such a request to a human player, I can imagine the same goes behind the scenes between AI civs. It should therefore be important for players to keep an eye out and strike a deal with Civs to make sure they don't join in through a military alliance.

I've also noticed other shrewd shenanigans. The AI, since it received no reputation penalty, has a habit of singing military alliances with another civ, and then making peace the next turn. This essentially means the AI just dragged another Civ into a war while it withdraws from it, keeping pressure on the same enemy, while, I assume, it retreats back to regroup and attack another time.

Cookie Monster · November 10, 2003, 09:12

One thing I've noticed now is the ai is willing to make gpt exchanges for your world map!

mimi · November 10, 2003, 09:19

Quote:

Originally posted by The diplomat
Is the AI more aggressive? I just played an epic game as the Celts at Monarch level, and lost in under 7 mn! I only had 2 cities, when my German neighbor rushes me with a bunch of archers and wipes me out! That has never happened to me before.

I left it at the normal agression level and tried 3 times as mayans - 3 times in a row the incas attacked before I had 4 cities built... the 2nd try they attacked just after I had built my first settler!

I figure the mayans suck so I don't play them anymore.

Brundlefly · November 10, 2003, 13:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Thoth
The Barbarian AI seems to have gotten broken somewhere along the line. I've noticed that they tend to just sit on their encampments (even after an uprising). I've only done a couple of starts so far, but I noticed the same behaviour in both.

Is this a scenario or the Epic game you are talking about? If it is Epic game then what is your barbarian setting?

dexters · November 10, 2003, 21:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Cookie Monster
One thing I've noticed now is the ai is willing to make gpt exchanges for your world map!

Haven't seen this myself, but the diplo AI HAS definately been tweaked. It's harder to make trades since the AI isn't always willing to tell you what it wants for something, even if it is willing to pay you something. You have to make an offer and a price.

DrSpike · November 11, 2003, 06:54

Some of the tweaks here look promising. The game better arrive today, or else.

alva · November 11, 2003, 08:07

Wow, spikey getting excited about Civ3, what's next??!!!

DrSpike · November 11, 2003, 08:20

Hehe Alva, in 1.07 and the earlier patches I was one of the most active Civ3 posters. Now the game looks like it might be sufficiently improved for me to return.

[throws down gauntlet]

Last one to beat Sid smells bad!

Cookie Monster · November 11, 2003, 09:14

Quote:

Originally posted by dexters

Haven't seen this myself, but the diplo AI HAS definately been tweaked. It's harder to make trades since the AI isn't always willing to tell you what it wants for something, even if it is willing to pay you something. You have to make an offer and a price.

I had successfull gpt offerings from civs located on other continents. Yes I've noticed that the old trick of asking what they would pay for an item doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to ask them what they would want for something and then go from there.

Arrian · November 11, 2003, 10:24

[disclaimer: sample size of 1, YMMV]

I got Conquests last night, and fired up my first game as the Maya. My usual settings: Standard, Monarch, Continents. The only tweak was restless barbs instead of my usual roaming.

I noticed the barbs were much more timid, and was thankful. But I'm not sure it's a good thing.

I noticed that the AI civs were REALLY stingy if they were the only ones who knew a particular tech. I tried to trade for Ceremonial Burial when only the Spanish had it, and my best two techs couldn't do it (I think alpha + masonry).

I built a curragh very early. This was very useful. I did not, however, see any AI curraghs. Hrm.

Though I had a good start spot and had the good fortune of starting very close to a civ that had ivory it could trade me (Zeus, Statue of), I ended up blasting out to a lead that surprised me.

The Agr trait is quite nice. directly south of my start spot was a small-medium sized desert. No problemo. I've got 3 size 12's down there.

My ancient age was spent REXing, building some libraries & markets, and building 2 wonders: Zeus and Maussolos (sp?). I pretty much beelined for Republic (max research to philo, take CoL as free tech, research republic at 50-turn pace) and switched to it at my earliest opportunity. I had a lot of workers, and that cost me for a while, but then I added most to cities.

It was in the medieval age that I left 'em in the dust. Sun Tzu, Leos, Sistine, Bach, Smith, Copernicus, Magellan, and currently building Newton (which I will get, easily). Without a Leader of any kind, with mediocre Palace/FP placement.

After crushing one neighbor (India) with a mixture of Ancient Cav and Medieval Infantry (capturing the Great Library in the process), I hit another (Russia)with the same mix (but more), plus some knights. They went down reasonably fast too, and this gained me the Knights Templar wonder. Now I'm ripping Spain to shreds with Cavalry, Ancient Cavalry, Crusaders & musketmen. I have a solid tech lead to boot.

The GL gave me 4 techs, IIRC: Monarchy, Monotheism, Theology, Chivalry. Not bad.

I made contact with the "other continent" immediately after researching Navigation. My three attempts at suicide runs (1 curragh, 2 galley) had failed. I was well ahead of those civs as well. The Iroquois are the power over there, with the Pyramids.

Something I noted that I think is telltale: when I hit F8 and look at the domination conditions, I'm first with ~25% land, ~40% population. My nearest rival is at ~20% land, ~20% population. It's the second of those numbers which interests me.

Something's a bit off. I played well, but not great. I did make some mistakes. My start spot itself was nice, but the surrounding land was so-so. My luck has been so-so as well. No catastrophes, but no leaders either. And yet I'm winning by so much... yeah, I feel like something's off.

-Arrian

p.s. Ancient Cav do not upgrade, it seems. Interesting. For some reason I assumed they would.

alva · November 11, 2003, 10:48

Hmm, say could this have to do with the new difficulty levels?
Perhaps now Monarch is closer to the old regent? Somewhere in between old regent and monarch?

Fosse · November 11, 2003, 10:54

Arrian,
How many workers did you have to fold into your cities? Enough to account for such a huge population compared to the AI?
I ask because the new Republic may have forced you to add more than you normally would have, and becaue I don't think the AI does this.

Arrian · November 11, 2003, 10:57

To my knowledge the actual bonuses and stuff haven't changed. But maybe the new contact/map trading rules, coupled with other tweaks, have combined to create that effect.

I did notice with on the startup screen, my level of choice is now on the left half:

Chieftain-Warlord-Regent-Monarch-Emperor-Demigod-Deity-Sid

Ack. I'll get the hang of C3C on Monarch, and then I think I will finally have to switch to Emperor (as all the people that have been telling me to do so jump up to Demigod

).

-Arrian

Arrian · November 11, 2003, 11:00

Fosse,

A bunch. I think I had almost 30 native workers when I switched to republic. I have about 5 left.

My terrain is fully developed... so I had no other purpose for them anyway.

-Arrian

Arrian · November 11, 2003, 11:03

Oh, and I think it's safe to say that the Agricultural civs are best suited to handle the unit support rules under republic, because of their extra growth + 1/2 cost aqueducts.

There is a big jump in the free unit support from town to city (1 -> 3, IIRC).

-Arrian

Fosse · November 11, 2003, 11:19

Was the map small enough that the 30 workers could have made the huger than normal difference in population?

That, coupled with Agricultural and the likliehood that you're probably ALWAYS bigger than the AI might help explain the huge disparity in pop sizes.

*looks forwad to having Conquests*

The diplomat · November 11, 2003, 12:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Thoth
The Barbarian AI seems to have gotten broken somewhere along the line. I've noticed that they tend to just sit on their encampments (even after an uprising). I've only done a couple of starts so far, but I noticed the same behaviour in both.

I think the Barbs are made to be smarter now. They use to just storm against a city eventhough it was hopeless. Now, they will wait and pick off isolated units, workers, settlers and pillage, if they can't attack a city.

Arrian · November 11, 2003, 12:24

Yeah, but I walked a warrior/settler team right past 2 barb warriors and they did not attack. My warrior was a regular, on flat ground. Monarch level. They had a reasonable shot at hurting me badly, and didn't take it. Then my Javelin Thrower had a chat with them.

-Arrian

Cookie Monster · November 11, 2003, 12:30

Arrian:

My first game of conquests (Sumerians, monarch, standard map, continents, restless barbs) starting out amazingly well. I'm still not that great at monarch but was surprised to see how quickly I became number one in land, 2 in pop, and at one time at least 2 techs ahead of the ai. My eventual downfall in this game was despite my size I had no iron or no saltpeter.

Let me tell you it's not a pretty site to see a vast empire disintegrate because of a lack of resources and no one who was willing to trade.

Anyway to make a long story short, I had one of the best games ever until my empire fell due only to a lack of key resources. Cool!

Started a second game last night and although I'm off to a great start I'm way behind on the tech race. this seems more like it. Not sure what's going on here as my land size is about the same as my last game, although I will admit the quality of the land is not as stellar as the first game.

Arrian · November 11, 2003, 12:42

I had to go a looooooooong way for iron and horses in my first game. Iron in particular. Thank goodness for the Ag/Ind combo. REXplosion!

Oh, and the Statue of Zeus kicks ass. Getting a 3/2/2 unit with a bonus hp every 5 turns kicks serious ass. Even if they don't upgrade. Even if I was dumb, forgot about the hp bonus, and assumed the 4hp guys I was getting were vets instead of the regulars they were, and ended up with a slew of them before completing Sun Tzu and getting 5hp versions. Heh.

Imagine building an army of those guys. With the elite* that produced the leader (6hp) plus 2 vets (5hp each), you would get 16hp of 3/2/3.

That Wonder is probably underpriced.

-Arrian

The diplomat · November 11, 2003, 12:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Yeah, but I walked a warrior/settler team right past 2 barb warriors and they did not attack. My warrior was a regular, on flat ground. Monarch level. They had a reasonable shot at hurting me badly, and didn't take it. Then my Javelin Thrower had a chat with them.

-Arrian

I know in a few of my games, the barbs did chase after and kill my un-escorted settlers that I thought I could slip by.

Cookie Monster · November 11, 2003, 13:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I had to go a looooooooong way for iron and horses in my first game. Iron in particular. Thank goodness for the Ag/Ind combo. REXplosion!

Oh, and the Statue of Zeus kicks ass. Getting a 3/2/2 unit with a bonus hp every 5 turns kicks serious ass. Even if they don't upgrade. Even if I was dumb, forgot about the hp bonus, and assumed the 4hp guys I was getting were vets instead of the regulars they were, and ended up with a slew of them before completing Sun Tzu and getting 5hp versions. Heh.

Imagine building an army of those guys. With the elite* that produced the leader (6hp) plus 2 vets (5hp each), you would get 16hp of 3/2/3.

That Wonder is probably underpriced.

-Arrian

Imagine being on the receiving end of Zeus!

That's what happened to me in my game. My Mauselium (free crusaders)couldn't stem the ai rush of horsies and Zeus units. It's all good though, had a blast with that game.

Arrian · November 11, 2003, 13:16

That's the Knights Templar, not the Mausolleum (which just gives 3 happy faces in one city... I built it, but it's really nothing special).

The Crusader unit is nice, but not the monster that the Ancient Cav is. 5/3/1 represents a +25% attack and +50% defense from the primary slowmover attack unit of its era.

The Ancient Cav gets +50% attack, +100% defense, +1hp from the primary fastmover attack unit of its era.

-Arrian

Stuie · November 11, 2003, 14:19

Another AI change I've noticed.... when attacking with a superior strength unit, the AI seems much more willing to risk an attack with a damaged attacker. I have seen Cavalry and even Longbowmen that are already down to one hitpoint attacking full strength units with a defense of 1 or 2. They used to run and hide if they had any damage.

Cookie Monster · November 11, 2003, 14:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
That's the Knights Templar, not the Mausolleum (which just gives 3 happy faces in one city... I built it, but it's really nothing special).

-Arrian

Ooops, my mistake. Yes the Knights of Templar.