C3C Armies

alexman · November 7, 2003, 19:47

They get +1 movement, auto-pillage, extra visibility, and faster healing.

But I'm confused about their bonus to attack/defense strength. I've heard lots of different stories. Does anyone know for sure what is the deal?

Jaybe · November 7, 2003, 20:09

From a post here or at CFC I cannot locate at the moment, IIRC from Chieftess:
add 1/6 of A/D strengths,
with military academy, add 1/4 (not 1/6).

Examples were given to the effect that with military academy, the strengths of a 4-unit army are DOUBLED!

PeaSoup · November 7, 2003, 20:24

ya, I was suprised to see the +1 movement.

I can now make a stack of native 1 movement defensive army to keep up with my fast attackers in the ancient and middle ages. works WONDERS..

alexman · November 7, 2003, 20:39

OK, so an Army with three Immortals (or Med. Infantry), even without the Mil. Academy becomes a 6-3-2 unit with 12 HP?

That's really hard to believe! Can it be true? A 12 HP unit with Cavalry Stats in Ancient or early Medieval Age? How can this not be unbalancing?

CiverDan · November 7, 2003, 20:59

well..i just made a quickie scenario with a 3 immortal army and stats are 4/2/2. Maybe its 1/6 of A/D stats as a whole. (i.e. a 3 Cavalry army is 7/3/4. In other words u need 6 attack to get a bonus w/o the mil. acadamy.

WarpStorm · November 7, 2003, 21:14

It is a 4/2/2 (I just tried it) with 9 hits (unless you use vets).

It isn't unbalancing if every team can do this or something like this.

Tassadar500 · November 7, 2003, 21:18

It would only be unbalancing if it was like a UU or a unit that a civ with a certain trait could use; like a scout.

alexman · November 7, 2003, 21:21

Well, it would be unbalancing because military leaders are so random. What if you don't get any leaders before your enemy gets two of them and rolls over you?

But as long as there's no crazy bonus to the attack/defense factors, I'm happy.

Catt · November 7, 2003, 21:50

The attack / defense bonuis was mentioned in Chieftess' SP strategy guide that came on the Bonus CD and also at Sulla's website (and I repeated the bonus in a thread here before I had the game).

The civilopedia mentions nothing of the bonus (though also doesn't mention the +1 move, the free pillage, etc.) and I haven't bothered to test it in the editor. The civilopedia also mentions nothing of an attck bonus for amphibious units but there seems to be some commentary suggesting that there may be something there.

Back to armies -- since both Chieftess' and Sulla's observations were made and recorded during the beta stage, I am assuming that any bonus was removed prior to the release version. I haven't tested anything.

Catt

The Slayer · November 7, 2003, 21:54

The units in the army now can be upgraded??

WarpStorm · November 7, 2003, 22:14

Now, the bonus CT mentions could be a hidden bonus (like the amphibious bonus).

In any case, armies are really worth building and working into your strategies now.

alexman · November 7, 2003, 22:17

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
In any case, armies are really worth building and working into your strategies now.

No kidding!!!! What else will you do with your leaders after you've established a second core?

Still, it would be nice to know your odds before attacking fortified musketmen with your old Archer Army!

Arrian · November 7, 2003, 22:23

Seriously. They've taken away my G.Wonder rushing via leaders, so all I've got left is a Palace move and armies (ok, ok, small wonders/improvements).

The extra move is HUGE. Does a slowmover army, say that 3x Immortal 4/2/2 get blitz too?

-Arrian

Tassadar500 · November 7, 2003, 22:32

Well you can rush wonders with scientific leades, right?

Catt · November 7, 2003, 22:33

D'oh! I always forget to go back to the readme. The readme does clarify that armies have blitz (civilopedia not yet updated since blitz was introduced some time ago), that they have +1 movement, and that they heal faster -- though no mention of free pillaging or any bonuses. My own personal speculation is that late in the development period the "bonuses" were removed and replaced with free pillaging.

Catt

WarpStorm · November 7, 2003, 22:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
The extra move is HUGE. Does a slowmover army, say that 3x Immortal 4/2/2 get blitz too?

Yes, they do.

vmxa1 · November 7, 2003, 23:51

I failed to notice the move part, but I had an army of horsemen and they all made elite. It was 15 HP. The move would be useful, but the faster heal seems to be a real danger. Getting it down to 1 HP and having it fully heal two turns later is going to make it a real power mover. The army was in a city with a barracks, so that may be a factor, but before it would have been forever before I could have used them again.

Dominae · November 8, 2003, 00:01

Early MGLs are far less unbalancing than they used to be in Play the World. Gettting a Great Leader to rush the Pyramids is far great a swing in power than creating a powerful Immortal Army.

I think this makes my opinion clear on early SGLs...

Dominae

Tassadar500 · November 8, 2003, 00:02

Dominae how often would you say SGL's appear? I am asking you because you were a beta-tester.

Dominae · November 8, 2003, 00:05

Approximately 3-5% chance with the first discovery of any tech.

This does not mean much, I know. Let's just say it happens seldom enough early on that it's not unbalancing in general. In those games that it does happen for the human player, it is very unbalancing. Researching The Wheel first and getting a SGL for it usually means game in any MP game, I would imagine in most SP games too.

Dominae

Tassadar500 · November 8, 2003, 00:14

You have to think though. Randomness IS Civ 3.

dexters · November 8, 2003, 02:11

Just out of vanity, I'd like to see culture specific army graphics, at least in the ancient and middle ages.

Playing Japanese and having a European looking unit walking around my map is really jarring

Maybe for the next XP?

Civ 3: Random Additions for your $30

vmxa1 · November 8, 2003, 03:37

I don't know how often, but I just a turn where three wonders popped up at once. I suspect that some SGL were involved. One was from the last place civ (ancient age).

PeaSoup · November 8, 2003, 05:00

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
I don't know how often, but I just a turn where three wonders popped up at once. I suspect that some SGL were involved. One was from the last place civ (ancient age).

how can a last place civ manage to get a SGL? Since the civ is in last place, it is unlikely to be the first to discover any techs.

Though I like it if the AI uses SGL to rush wonders, will keep me on my toes.

WarpStorm · November 8, 2003, 12:38

Quote:

Originally posted by PeaSoup
how can a last place civ manage to get a SGL? Since the civ is in last place, it is unlikely to be the first to discover any techs.

They could have been researching an optional tech that nobody else bothered with. I know this is possible, as I've done it.

Plotinus · November 8, 2003, 12:52

Presumably the armies heal fully in two turns only when resting in a barracks. I always thought it a big flaw that armies took forever to heal - after all, if I had three separate units sitting in the barracks, they would all heal within two turns, so how come they don't when they're all in the same army? That's one reason why making an army often wasn't worth it. This change addresses that rather unfair imbalance.

Sarxis · November 8, 2003, 13:06

The new armies are nice. Potent, but not overly so.

dexters · November 8, 2003, 17:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
Approximately 3-5% chance with the first discovery of any tech.

This does not mean much, I know. Let's just say it happens seldom enough early on that it's not unbalancing in general. In those games that it does happen for the human player, it is very unbalancing. Researching The Wheel first and getting a SGL for it usually means game in any MP game, I would imagine in most SP games too.

Dominae

do you think it's better if these guys show up a little more frequently?

WarpStorm · November 8, 2003, 17:33

Quote:

Originally posted by dexters
do you think it's better if these guys show up a little more frequently?

No! I think they happen a little too frequently already. If they happened more often, there'd be no wonders left to rush. In additon, on the upper levels of play, it's the AI that'll be using them to rush stuff, not you.

zorbop · November 8, 2003, 19:17

wait- so if i get an elite modern armour army and the pentagon i can have a 4 move unit with 30 attack strength and 20 HP.

btw, does anyone know if AI army use is improved? I swear i have seen AI armies with a swordsman, jaguar warrior and horsemen in ptw.