Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 9, 2003, 23:33   #1
cutlerd
Warlord
 
Local Time: 12:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Agoura Hills, CA USA
Posts: 101
Bombardment Woes
Overall I like Conquests a lot. One thing I do not like is naval bombardment. Specifically, the new increased movement rates of bombarding naval units means they can now move in from long range, bombard, and move back out. Done right, you can never hit a frigate with cannons. This makes naval bombarders way too powerful.

What's more, Coastal Fortresses still don't work very well and...even worse...they are now very fragile and are the first thing to be destroyed during naval bombardment (even before units). This means, effectively, there is no way to mitigate naval bombardment outside of sending your own fleet.

Coastal Fortresses need to be made much tougher to destroy and need to do some real bombardment damage. Naval units should not get a free ride against prepared coastal defenses. Further, I think Coastal Defense should get a bonus for each cannon stacked with it (or artillery).

Devin
__________________
Devin
cutlerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 00:11   #2
Kuciwalker
Deity
 
Kuciwalker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
Quote:
This means, effectively, there is no way to mitigate naval bombardment outside of sending your own fleet.
So you are forced to have a strong navy. This is a bad thing?
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
Kuciwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 00:30   #3
PeaSoup
Warlord
 
Local Time: 05:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 139
now that privateer have bombardment strength of 3, I'd imagine we'll be seeing the AI use them all the time to destroy terrain improvements
PeaSoup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 00:54   #4
Wittlich
lifer
Call to Power II MultiplayerCivilization III MultiplayerTrade Wars / BlackNova TradersCivilization III PBEMPtWDG Vox ControliCivilization III Democracy GameCiv4 SP Democracy GameC3CDG EuphoricaIron CiversCivilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization IV PBEMC4WDG United Dungeon DwellersDiploGamesC4BtSDG TemplarsPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Wittlich's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Baron of Sealand residing in SF, CA
Posts: 12,344
Actually, I concider this a good sign!
__________________
____________________________
"One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
"If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
____________________________
Wittlich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 03:02   #5
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
60% water on a pangea map takes care of that issue.
vmxa1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 05:44   #6
Wittlich
lifer
Call to Power II MultiplayerCivilization III MultiplayerTrade Wars / BlackNova TradersCivilization III PBEMPtWDG Vox ControliCivilization III Democracy GameCiv4 SP Democracy GameC3CDG EuphoricaIron CiversCivilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization IV PBEMC4WDG United Dungeon DwellersDiploGamesC4BtSDG TemplarsPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Wittlich's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Baron of Sealand residing in SF, CA
Posts: 12,344
How would having 60% water coverage on a Pangea map alieviate the problem?
__________________
____________________________
"One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
"If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
____________________________
Wittlich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 05:58   #7
dexters
Apolyton Storywriters' Guild
King
 
dexters's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,141
You get continents style maps with narrow landbridges and lots of water.

But generally, faster naval movements is good. Because I hate having to wait 15 turns for my navy to get there when I can rebase my airforce and units in one turn.

Also, AI now escorts its transports with multiple ships and it loves to have a modern navy, and any decent sized AI will have a large navy and it matches if not owns completely my PTW era navies in terms of size. This was made painfully clear in my first win on a monarch pangea game on a standard map, with my top AI rival had 30 destroyers to my 8 and 3 carriers to my 2.

Thankfully, I was being the plotting Machiavellian and had picked that particular Civ to be my partner. We never went to war, and I never had to face that navy.
dexters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 06:55   #8
Wittlich
lifer
Call to Power II MultiplayerCivilization III MultiplayerTrade Wars / BlackNova TradersCivilization III PBEMPtWDG Vox ControliCivilization III Democracy GameCiv4 SP Democracy GameC3CDG EuphoricaIron CiversCivilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization IV PBEMC4WDG United Dungeon DwellersDiploGamesC4BtSDG TemplarsPolyCast Team
Deity
 
Wittlich's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Baron of Sealand residing in SF, CA
Posts: 12,344
Ok. I understand where you're coming from Dexers, but my question is that how would setting the map to 60% water coverage alieviate the problem? In my mind, the problem (weak coastal fortesses, et al) are still present, though not as noticeble - enventually it would come into play...
__________________
____________________________
"One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
"If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
____________________________
Wittlich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 12:58   #9
cutlerd
Warlord
 
Local Time: 12:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Agoura Hills, CA USA
Posts: 101
You already have to have a strong navy to project power overseas. Do you really think coastal fortresses are currently even worth building in Conquests? I invite you to try it and get back to me. If no, then by definition something needs to be done to make them worth building.

Devin
__________________
Devin
cutlerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 13:07   #10
Shogun Gunner
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildCivilization III Democracy GameCall to Power II MultiplayerCall to Power MultiplayerC3CDG Team BabylonPtWDG Vox ControliCivilization IV CreatorsC4DG Sarantium
Emperor
 
Shogun Gunner's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Potomac Falls, Virginia
Posts: 6,258
I agree that these changes are overall great, but I do agree with one thing of cutlerd's points. Bombarding ships should not get a free chance to sail in, bombard, and sail out each turn. It's obvious that you should be able to shoot back if you have cannons, coastal fortress.

As far as the coastal fortress being the first thing blown up, that makes sense. If I was a commanding the ship, that's the first thing I would shoot at.
__________________
Haven't been here for ages....
Shogun Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 14:06   #11
Sarxis
Rise of Nations MultiplayerAlpha Centauri PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMCTP2 Source Code ProjectCall to Power II MultiplayerCall to Power MultiplayerCivilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization IV CreatorsGalCiv Apolyton Empire
Emperor
 
Sarxis's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 3,361
I'd love to see that idea implemented, where if you have any cannon type artillery in a city with coastal defense, it adds to the cities anti-naval bombardment defenses.
Sarxis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 14:38   #12
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
Quote:
Originally posted by Wittlich
How would having 60% water coverage on a Pangea map alieviate the problem?
You will have very little water to deal with as the land will cover so much. You will direct access to all civs over land.
When I use those setting I do not see large navies.
No real need to make coastal fortress, if there ever was any.
vmxa1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 14:54   #13
cutlerd
Warlord
 
Local Time: 12:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Agoura Hills, CA USA
Posts: 101
Huh? Bombardment now causes permanent damage to terrain and is now very effective in reducing enemies. Therefore, even in a Pangea setting, these units will be incredibly effective against cities on the coast. And the AI will build plenty of naval units...trust me.

Devin
__________________
Devin
cutlerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 15:17   #14
dexters
Apolyton Storywriters' Guild
King
 
dexters's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,141
That's one thing I've noticed. AI builds plenty of ships and when that stack of 22 destroyers show up on your coast, better get those workers ready.
dexters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 21:53   #15
MrWhereItsAt
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameCivilization II Democracy GamePtWDG RoleplayAlpha Centauri PBEMSpanish CiversCall to Power Democracy GameCivilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontPtWDG2 Latin LoversACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansC3CDG The Lost BoysCivilization III Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton Team
Deity
 
MrWhereItsAt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:11
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: That's DR WhereItsAt...
Posts: 10,157
Quote:
Originally posted by cutlerd
Huh? Bombardment now causes permanent damage to terrain and is now very effective in reducing enemies. Therefore, even in a Pangea setting, these units will be incredibly effective against cities on the coast. And the AI will build plenty of naval units...trust me.

Devin
But you won't have as many, and nor will you need to contend with navies to get at an other civ, if you have a land connection to them somewhere.

MUCH less difficult than trying to defend your invasion fleet on its way over.

Yes they will of course be effective on the coast, but with a Pangaea map there is less coast overall for the same land settings, and at 60% water there is less water overall anyway, so the AIs navies will hardly be as effective as in a map where you ahve to sail to do anything.
__________________
Consul.

Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!
MrWhereItsAt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10, 2003, 21:58   #16
dexters
Apolyton Storywriters' Guild
King
 
dexters's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:11
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,141
Navies always had its uses, even in pangea, and even pre C3C. But after C3C, with airforces and lethan sea bombardment, you'd be stupid to have anything that moves on the sea without AA support, and the only way you can get AA support is from ships.

And like I said, the AI civs will build navies. Standard sized pangea games have relatively small maps, and if your neighbour happens to be the owner of a large fleet, all the land in the world won't save you from having your coasts leveled.
dexters is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:11.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team