FIRAXIS: A list of EASY fixes for the next C3C patch - Page 12

WarpStorm · November 21, 2003, 23:54

LOL, dexters.

Greek Stud · November 22, 2003, 03:02

Wow! I'm more confused than a Turk inside Hagia Sophia?

You all really know a lot about the configuration of the game. The bug I noticed was in the Fall of Rome scenario, I was playing as the Persians, or whatever they were called at that time, and I chose not to change to Imperialism. But you don't get to have a revolution after that, when I wanted to... I don't know why that happened but it kinda sucked.

Ãåéá Alex! ÌéëÜôå ôá åëëçíéêÜ; ÅÜí ü÷é, êáôüðéí åíôÜîåé. ÅÜí, êáôüðéí åßóôå äñïóåñïß.

Doc Tsiolkovski · November 22, 2003, 08:18

Statement:

I *love* the Ivory/ ToZ thing. Please do not change that, BA.

Just seems mainly those people who always want to be able to build all wonders are complaining here.

See it that way: With the new scarce resources, this simply gives you one more chance if you end with no Iron or Horses, and considering the underlying terrain, it isn't very likely to have both Iron and Ivory now.

Wonders requiring resources was always in DyP (for example, all the 'Churches' require Incense), and it is working nicely there.

A totally different topic: I already posted about that here, but it looks like the point was lost:

The localized .biq files may be inconsistant with the US/ English version, the need to be carefully checked.
At least the German one is messed up, s.v. Feudalism, and have a look at this:
http://www.civ2-forum.gamigo.de/atta...&postid=231301
Since I've never seen anything like this mentioned elsewhere, I suppose it's also caused by the German .biq

Dominae · November 22, 2003, 10:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
Just seems mainly those people who always want to be able to build all wonders are complaining here.

That's sort of right. I rarely am able to build all the Wonders, but I want the option to build all of them. "No, no, sorry, Leonardo's Workshop is reserved for the civs on the other continent" is not something I (and many others) would like to see.

Quote:

See it that way: With the new scarce resources, this simply gives you one more chance if you end with no Iron or Horses, and considering the underlying terrain, it isn't very likely to have both Iron and Ivory now.

Strategic resources are still fairly distributed. Just load up a few maps in the editor and you'll see for yourself. The chances of not having Iron or Horses and being close to Ivory are very slim.

Quote:

Wonders requiring resources was always in DyP (for example, all the 'Churches' require Incense), and it is working nicely there.

There's so much to do in the DyP mod that I'm sure you never miss stuff because you have no access to a particular resource! Players miss the SoZ in the standard game when they do no have Ivory.

Dominae

alexman · November 22, 2003, 11:06

Doc Tsiolkovski, I added the Feudalism bug for the german version back when you first mentioned it. It's the first item under "Other bugs".

As for the ToZ and Ivory debate, I don't think the right solution is to completely remove the resource requirement, because the AI already has most of its cities building Wonders in the late Ancient age as it is. If all the AI can build the ToZ, then it will be one less city for them to build settlers and units. (In fact, with the current strange desire of the AI to build the Oracle as its first Wonder, I was thinking it might be better to make even the Oracle require incense or something, so not all the AI waste their time building it, but that's another story and doesn't really belong here).

There are arguments for both changing the ToZ and leaving it as it is. The ivory requirement adds flavor, and helps the AI, but it also has the potential for very unbalanced maps in MP, and removes a cool Wonder from the build decisions most players have to make.

For now, I'm leaving something about the ToZ/Ivory in the first post, because even if it's not a universally acknowledged problem, it's definitely a commonly stated problem.

donZappo · November 22, 2003, 11:58

Alexman, I see in the strategy forums that you're going to be away from Civ for the next week? Does that mean you won't be around to contribute and add to this thread? That would be a shame since it seems like this thread might be useful to Breakaway/Firaxis and the next patch can't be too far off. Also, why are the AI so intent upon building wonders during the ancient era? Would this be something that could even remotely be addressed in a patch. or is that something that the AU community has to deal with itself? Maybe the "flavors" added to the game could deal with this somehow.

-donZappo

alexman · November 22, 2003, 12:20

Yes, I'll be away for a week (I'm out the door as we speak), but I might be able to get online for a few minutes every other day to update this thread.

As for AI Wonder building, it's not that the AI builds Wonders that hurts, it's that it builds every available Wonder at once. This is usually not a problem, especially when there is no more room to expand. It's only somewhat of a problem in the ancient Age in C3C with the addition of all these new Wonders. I doubt this would be addressed in a patch, because Firaxis/BA knew of the problem even during beta testing (as mentioned in Sulla's site).

joncnunn · November 22, 2003, 12:39

You don't want to have a Revolution in Fall of Rome.

All human players start in Tribal Council.

In that scenerio, T.C. has the Democracy level corruption and unlimited support for military units.

The only other govt in that scenerio is Imperalism, which in that scnerio is Despotism level of corruption!

Quote:

Originally posted by Greek Stud
Wow! I'm more confused than a Turk inside Hagia Sophia?

You all really know a lot about the configuration of the game. The bug I noticed was in the Fall of Rome scenario, I was playing as the Persians, or whatever they were called at that time, and I chose not to change to Imperialism. But you don't get to have a revolution after that, when I wanted to... I don't know why that happened but it kinda sucked.

Ãåéá Alex! ÌéëÜôå ôá åëëçíéêÜ; ÅÜí ü÷é, êáôüðéí åíôÜîåé. ÅÜí, êáôüðéí åßóôå äñïóåñïß.

joncnunn · November 22, 2003, 12:47

Guess this might not be easy to fix; but why the heck hasn't ANY of the AIs declared war on Rome yet? It's now past turn 50, most of the barb tribes have finished the barb unique section of the tree, those that don't have at least Pillaging. (I sold Maurding and Pillaging at major discounts hoping for them to use it.) I in fact entered the "Rome Fights Back" era and finished the Scrouge of God wonder while my forces are marching to take on the Bryz., and have now decided to turn reseach down to 20% to support upgrades of units. The Persians still don't have Fortification.

thetoxicyears · November 22, 2003, 14:04

I'm not sure if this is a bug or if I'm doing something wrong. When I click Load Game from the main menu no .biq files show up in folders I know their in. Anybody else have this problem?

Backpack · November 22, 2003, 15:36

Alexman, - Please start including a version number in your first post that you update after each edit. - This thread has been so productive and gone on for so long that I feel I need to review the top post before posting, but I am sometimes unsure if there has been a change since the last time I reviewed it. - Also I want to make sure that people working on the patch don't miss an update or change to our sugestion list, this is for thier benefit

Easy Fix:

Update both the C3C and the PTW editor help with the correct information regarding resource distribution ratios.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=69502
Not everyone reads the boards.

Debatable - Might be easy fix:

Make the 4% of tiles used for resources modable in the editor. (See same thread above for description) - Note for gameplay, map generation, as I understand it, this number is only used after strategic and lux resources are placed. It limits only bonus resources. A moddable percentage would be beneficial to those making resource intensive mods (copper, timber etc) using up most of the available slots and those like me who prefer a 'bountiful' eden like world.

Thanks again

Kevin

vmxa1 · November 22, 2003, 16:03

Quote:

Originally posted by thetoxicyears
I'm not sure if this is a bug or if I'm doing something wrong. When I click Load Game from the main menu no .biq files show up in folders I know their in. Anybody else have this problem?

Load game is for saved games, from the save folder. Biq will be in the civ-content for maps you created or down loaded.

Kuratko · November 25, 2003, 05:23

I have noticed another bug, sorry if this has been already reported elsewehere:

If you mod the game so that a worker action requires a resource (e.g., so that Clear Wetlands requires Saltpeter) and you do not have the resource, the Clear Wetlands button is disabled (correct) but the Automated Clear Wetlands is still available and can be used even if you do not have the resource (bug).

Gyromancer · November 25, 2003, 09:39

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1

If one was to list all the things that have been mentioned as things the AI needs to do, it would be very long.
My point is that the AI has some of the problems we have, it can not do all the things it would need to do at the same time.
Everything can't be a priority. Now you get down to giving some serious thought as to what needs to be be done next and that is often not easy for even the human, let alone the AI.

I don't think it would be too much to add logic to the AI so it would build ONE harbor with high priority if it has contact with civs that it can't trade with, and then build other harbors as it needs food. I can''t imagne a good human player not building at least one harbor when there are luxes to be traded for....

vmxa1 · November 25, 2003, 14:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Gyromancer

I don't think it would be too much to add logic to the AI so it would build ONE harbor with high priority if it has contact with civs that it can't trade with, and then build other harbors as it needs food. I can''t imagne a good human player not building at least one harbor when there are luxes to be traded for....

It probably can, my point is not that idea A or B or a few others could not be implemented. It is that how many could be and should be added? I don't know that answer. I would suspect that if the AI was made smarter, it would not be a good thing for game sales.

This is because unlike some of the players here that can beat the game at all levels, most of the casual players can barely beat it at Chief. As a publisher I would not want to make the game harder and lose those people, just to make it tougher for the serious players. I have their money already. So where is that line, I don't know.

alexman · November 25, 2003, 14:27

Quote:

Originally posted by kwpulliam1973
Alexman, - Please start including a version number in your first post that you update after each edit. -

I'm not sure an arbitrary version number will be better than the 'last edited' date at the bottom of the post, which gets edited automatically. Also, I try to add new items at the bottom of each section so that they can be easily found.

Kuratko: are you sure resource required worker actions don't work? I don't remember being able to railroad tiles when I don't have iron or coal, and I use shortcuts.

Dimorier Maximus · November 25, 2003, 16:40

I think that Feudalism should not require maintenance. It has absolutely no practical benefits over Republic if you want to increase in technology, and it has no real benefits over Monarchy if you want to fight. I think they should make all versions like the German version and take away the cost for buildings under Feudalism...otherwise it has absolutely no strategic purpose in the game and is a complete waste.

Backpack · November 25, 2003, 17:00

Cool - I never noticed the last edited date before !

Another suggestion - Have victory conditions 'grey out' instead of disappear from the Victory status page. - Playing a non-domination game at the moment, and I find that I already rely on those percentages for an accurate assessment of where I am in the game. Now without them, I feel uninformed.

Thanks

Kevin

asleepathewheel · November 25, 2003, 19:42

Quote:

Originally posted by kwpulliam1973
Cool - I never noticed the last edited date before !

Another suggestion - Have victory conditions 'grey out' instead of disappear from the Victory status page. - Playing a non-domination game at the moment, and I find that I already rely on those percentages for an accurate assessment of where I am in the game. Now without them, I feel uninformed.

Thanks

Kevin

That's a great idea, good for comparing your civ to the nearest opponent.

joncnunn · November 25, 2003, 20:24

In partial answer to mine own question:

Looks like the AI is programed never to accept alliances against a player unless at least one of you is already at war with them.

And wars have now started, athough some of them are misguided but typical AI behavior. (They are ganging up on probably the weakest AI barb tribe.)

Quote:

Originally posted by joncnunn
Guess this might not be easy to fix; but why the heck hasn't ANY of the AIs declared war on Rome yet? It's now past turn 50, most of the barb tribes have finished the barb unique section of the tree, those that don't have at least Pillaging. (I sold Maurding and Pillaging at major discounts hoping for them to use it.) I in fact entered the "Rome Fights Back" era and finished the Scrouge of God wonder while my forces are marching to take on the Bryz., and have now decided to turn reseach down to 20% to support upgrades of units. The Persians still don't have Fortification.

joncnunn · November 25, 2003, 20:25

That bug was in Classic Civ III 1.29f as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kuratko
I have noticed another bug, sorry if this has been already reported elsewehere:

If you mod the game so that a worker action requires a resource (e.g., so that Clear Wetlands requires Saltpeter) and you do not have the resource, the Clear Wetlands button is disabled (correct) but the Automated Clear Wetlands is still available and can be used even if you do not have the resource (bug).

joncnunn · November 25, 2003, 20:28

I'm thinking that when multi-city elimation is enabled, I'd like to see how many cities each civ has lost and not just one civ.

alexman · November 26, 2003, 14:29

joncnunn, I'm not familiar with multi-city elimination mode, but if you can format your suggestion into an easy solution (in the pattern of the first post), I would be happy to add it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dimorier Maximus
I think that Feudalism should not require maintenance.

The problem is that the AI then never switches out of Feudalism. That's why they changed it to what it is now.

WarpStorm · November 26, 2003, 17:34

It was too good of a government, it wasn't just the AI that didn't want to switch. I usually didn't in the beta either. It worked awesome with a dense build strategy (actually, it still does).

The_Aussie_Lurker · November 26, 2003, 18:30

Not really a bug but, from what I've been reading around the place, I'm getting a sense that the improvements which build treasure units, or Wonders that build a certain unit every X turns, can become a 'little tedious' for some players! My suggestion then, would be for Firaxis to implement some way for players to 'switch on/switch off' these improvements and wonders depending on the players current needs! Anyway, just a thoiught!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

statusperfect · November 26, 2003, 21:43

Anal graphic nitpicker report #3

Is the Secret Police HQ supposed to look like a medieval asian building?? This HAS to be a mixup of some way...

If there are no graphics for this small wonder is suggest using the european manor one.

HeadHoncho · November 26, 2003, 23:40

You have my compliments. This is an incredible list! I hope they take the suggestions to heart.

Dominae · November 27, 2003, 00:09

Yes, the no maintenance Feudalism very potent. Powerful enough that you would change your entire game strategy to exploit it to its fullest. That's not necessarily a bad thing (see SMAC's governments). I think the goal with Feudalism was to create an alternative to Monarchy/Republic in the Medieval era, not fundamentally change how the game is played.

The current version of Feudalism perhaps falls a bit short in terms of power, but IMO that's preferable to the monster it could have been.

Dominae

DrSpike · November 27, 2003, 06:43

Quote:

Originally posted by statusperfect
Anal graphic nitpicker report #3

Is the Secret Police HQ supposed to look like a medieval asian building?? This HAS to be a mixup of some way...

That's just a ruse. It's real form is, well, a secret.

statusperfect · November 27, 2003, 06:55

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike
That's just a ruse. It's real form is, well, a secret.

You are kidding me. It looks like a ninja Santa Claus mansion.