Armies DO Have Combat Bonus! - Page 2

Kuciwalker · November 15, 2003, 08:01

That's scary. A bonused marine army in a transport that can attack TWICE.

Catt · November 15, 2003, 12:24

Theseus hasn't popped in yet, but I thought I'd add that the comat bonus also disproportionately helps mixed-unit armies (that is if my speculation is accurate).

First the speculation: In PTW, mixed-unit armies displayed stats that were averages from the constituent units stats, but armies employed stats of the actual unit engaged in combat. For example, a tank-cavalry-knight-knight army would attack with the tank's attack value of 16 unless it lost 1/4 of its HPs in one battle -- then the battle would contiue with the cavalry's value of 6; but the stats would show a rounded-version of the averages, so the army stats would probably be dsiplayed as 7.4.2. My speculation is that the army combat bonus is similarly applied to individual units stats within an army for combat purposes; in other words, that the army combat bonus for the above army would be 5 on the attack, and that it would attack with an attack value of 21 unless it lost 1/4th of its HPs in one battle and then would continue with an attack value of 11.

Why would this disproportionately help mixed-unit armies? In PTW, the more modern units in a mixed-unit army essentially got to share (borrow) extra HPs from its other army members from battle to battle. If my speculation is correct, a similar sharing would occur in those instances when an individual battle is going badly. The above example army would generate an 11-attack-value cavalry -- essentially, the cavalry unit shares (borrows) some of the inflated combat bonus generated by its other member's (tank's) higher attack value.

Catt

Kuciwalker · November 15, 2003, 12:36

Is anyone concerned about the fact that there are now four-move armies? Seems like a Cavalry army would be even better for pillaging now.

WarpStorm · November 15, 2003, 12:38

The best pillager is now the Conquistador army. It'll probably die right after doing it, but it can completely remove a city from the grid in only one turn.

Inverse Icarus · November 15, 2003, 13:59

assuming it's within 1 tile of the city, right? 3 moves, all as road = 9 moves, 8 tiles to pillage.

Theseus · November 15, 2003, 16:51

I am... speechless. I could almost cry, I am so happy. Seriosuly, I think I'm gonna squeeze out a few.

In fact, I'm gonna make a spreadsheet for this, just to see en masse how great this is.

Re the mixed unit Armies: Catt is quite right, the stats shown are confusing, and that units fight one by one in descending order of strength.

So, I think mixed unit Armies will disproportionately benefit the weaker units. This will be more meaningful on defense, as in attack, the strongest unit will attack first each time, with an allotment of 1/4 of total remaining hps... so unless your a dope, and attack with too few hps left, that Tank sitting at the head of 3xCavs will do all the fighting.

A typical defender mixed unit Army of mine would be, say, 2xPike+Rifle+Infantry. So, in the event that this Army got attacked, and on a given attack it got worn down through the Infantry (now 14d) and Rifle (now 10d), the Pikes would have a defense of (10+6+3+3)/6+3=6.7d, or I assume 7d, before modifiers.

And that doesn't suck.

YIPPEE!!!!

/me does his Army dance.

Theseus · November 15, 2003, 16:53

So a 4xSipahi Army with max bonus is friggin' 16 attack??!! And moves 4 tiles?? And blitzes? And pillages?

Jesus wept.

sabrewolf · November 15, 2003, 16:54

warpstorm,
i disagree. conquistadors may have 6 effective moves, but in fact they "only" have 2. in an army 3. they could move 9 tiles far, but each pillaging would cost them 3 "moves" ... so at best they can pillage 3 times.

however. think of a knight army moving through the countryside defending the 6 conquistadors (or even explorers, if needed) pillaging their way through the enemy territory

has someone made any field tests of
a) unit regeneration in an army without moving in a turn
b) unit regeneration in an army WITH moving in that turn
c) unit regeneration in an army in a city without barracks
d) unit regeneration in an army in a city with barracks
and
e) non-armied-unit, regeneration in enemy territory (what are the odds? 1:3 chance of a hit point)
f) non-armied-unit, regeneration in enemy territory with battlefield medecine

as amazon.co.uk will probably let me wait another week, i can't test this myself...

WarpStorm · November 15, 2003, 17:15

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf
warpstorm,
i disagree. conquistadors may have 6 effective moves, but in fact they "only" have 2. in an army 3. they could move 9 tiles far, but each pillaging would cost them 3 "moves" ... so at best they can pillage 3 times.

You may disagree, but I've tried it. It works. Why? What are you missing? The fact that pillages are free actions for armies now and cost no moves.

Oh, yes, Theseus, a Sipahi army is a joy to behold (if you are the Ottomans, that is).

sabrewolf · November 15, 2003, 17:21

Quote:

The fact that pillages are free actions for armies now and cost no moves.

that's what i missed...

sorry...

vmxa1 · November 15, 2003, 18:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
So a 4xSipahi Army with max bonus is friggin' 16 attack??!! And moves 4 tiles?? And blitzes? And pillages?

Jesus wept.

I just finished a game as Ottoman, and made a bunch of armies, but no Sipahi ones. The timing was wrong for me, it woudl have been something with 4 moves. I did make a few MA armies, so nasty with 4 move.

vmxa1 · November 15, 2003, 18:09

Armies in a barrack city fully heal after one turn of no move, just like normal units. Out in the open they seem to recover two hp per unit per turn with no movement. I did not log it, but that is what I recall. In any event they heal very fast.

pauli · November 16, 2003, 08:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Thoth
Very nice work Catt. I thought my armies were doing better than the displayed stats indicated, this explains it nicely.

BTW: Crusader armies work wonders against swiss pikemen.

Not much else does.

teutonic knights!

though i think those are one scenario only

based on what i've seen in this thread, i really don't think i'd have beaten that scenario without my matched pair of 14hp teutonic knight armies.

by the math here... that's 7/4/3.

i wish i'd had c3c armies for my last big game, which focused on a series of immense land battles, featuring about half a dozen (maybe more) 4xcav armies. i kicked enough ass as was!

Dominae · November 16, 2003, 10:55

Do you guys miss the fact that MGLs cannot rush all Wonders?

Dominae

Thoth · November 16, 2003, 11:15

No. I like the change. I think it helps balance building with warmongering. In previous versions of Civ 3 you could either invest 600 sheilds and a lot of turns in a wonder race or take those 600 sheilds and build a military which would often turn into a leader or two. It's now a choice betwen guns and butter rather than guns for butter.

CerberusIV · November 16, 2003, 11:34

I haven't got C3C yet but the comments about berserk armies got my attention.

OK, a 3 berserk army needs a galleon to carry it but is 9/3/2 amphibious blitz. With some bombardment support that should still take out riflemen easily.

A 2 berserk army is 8/3/2 - nearly as good and 10 HP if you put elites into it. And it will fit in a caravel. Muskets defending - no chance!

Even a single berserk in an army becomes 7/2/2 and will go in a galley.

That extra move should make a lot of difference to the move 1 units that were vulnerable to fast units. I never used to worry about seeing a berserk army on land if I had knights - now I will.

asleepathewheel · November 16, 2003, 11:35

at first I didn't like the change, after losing out on a couple of wonders I wanted desperately.

however now I like the change, I like being forced to create armies with their increased power. makes the game more enjoyable. I would generally keep a leader in reserve for a later wonder (probably sun tzu or leo or later hoover) but now its use the leader immediately in an offensive army.

I have used leaders to rush small wonders, which is a nice little bonus, as you can still build the fp (and palace? haven't tried it yet) (fp of dubious quality, temporarily, I hope)

so

for the change

WarpStorm · November 16, 2003, 12:02

I like the fact that warmongering doesn't produce wonders anymore.

Kuciwalker · November 16, 2003, 13:38

Quote:

That extra move should make a lot of difference to the move 1 units that were vulnerable to fast units. I never used to worry about seeing a berserk army on land if I had knights - now I will.

The best thing about it is the army can attack TWICE per turn from the transport.

vmxa1 · November 16, 2003, 16:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
Do you guys miss the fact that MGLs cannot rush all Wonders?

Dominae

I did at first, but not now. After getting a bunch of SGL's, I am leaning towards the whole idea of being able to rush a great wonder as too strong. Perhaps if they restricted it to the first SGL only.
The use of the SGL for a boost in research is too weak. One turn saved is not much, especially late in the game when you are getting the tech first all the time. I understand that it represents a lot of beakers, but not much saving of time.

yxhuvud · November 17, 2003, 08:12

Does the bonuses affect bombarding as well?

Might come up if you do a warlord army in the fall of rome scenario.

15(18)/4/2, against defensive units with at best 4 defense

(if it doesnt, 15(12)/4/2, which is pretty nice as well, especially considering they spawn new units when winning a battle)

Stuie · November 17, 2003, 09:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
Do you guys miss the fact that MGLs cannot rush all Wonders?

No.

I finally got a MGL in my current game (followed by several others in later turns), and I am now fielding quite a few armies of either all tanks, all infantry and one just started loading Mech Infantry. These things are completely awesome!!

Funny thing is, I'm now maxed out for armies and I have a MGL just waiting in my capital until I grab a few more cities. There are no small wonders to rush, and I'd hate to waste him on an "ordinary" build.

Arrian · November 17, 2003, 10:03

I sorta do... but I recognize it needed changing.

And the most important thing to be able to rush (palace/fp, or at least it will be once they fix the FP) is still rushable by MGLs.

It's too bad there are no naval leaders/fleets, but that's not that big a deal.

-Arrian

Shogun Gunner · November 19, 2003, 17:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian

It's too bad there are no naval leaders/fleets, but that's not that big a deal.

-Arrian

Well, under the current C3C rules, unless you got the Jesus of Galilee Great Leader, they would slide into the deep, dark ocean. No transport!

pauli · November 19, 2003, 18:00

make them airborn, with no fuel limit

Arrian · November 19, 2003, 18:09

Make 'em naval units - 0/0/4.

-Arrian

Slax · November 20, 2003, 08:42

I don't remember players complaining about MGLs rushing wonders before C3C. Did this come from the beta?

vmxa1 · November 20, 2003, 18:36

The difference is at the higher levels. In the pre C3C GL generation all had more or less the same chance to get one. You got an elite and won a battle. The level had a small impact.

Now with SGL, you are in a different boat after around Emp. You need to be first to learn a tech. This will be very hard at the highest level until you are well into the game. You may argue that the extra handicap is a good thing and maybe it is, but all I am saying is it is a change.

Mad Bomber · November 20, 2003, 20:40

Skywalker:

Marines now have a 12 attack, meaning that a full marine army is now a 24/16?/2 amphibious army.

Arrian:

The 4 Cav armies work as advertised, kicking ass with them.

Did any one else note that the Cossacks now have a blitz capability instead of the 4 defense. I think I might give them a try. And the Saphai remain the most overpowered unit in the game.

Kuciwalker · November 21, 2003, 00:23

Quote:

Marines now have a 12 attack

Nice. I've always modded my games to have more powerful Marines and Paratroopers.