Thread Tools
Old November 16, 2003, 08:10   #1
Sandman
King
 
Sandman's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Just one more thing
Posts: 1,733
Bush's visit to Britain
Yes, there's already a thread about this, but it's pretty incoherent, so I'd thought I'd start another one.

What are your feelings about Bush's visit to Britain?

I, like most other Brits, don't want him here. This visit is nothing but a PR stunt for Bush, with no purpose other than to raise his opinion polls back home. It's going to cause chaos and cost money. He should stay at home.

Thankfully, some of the Americans' more insane requests have been turned down, including diplomatic immunity for Bush's bodyguard, closing down the London Underground, fighter aircraft over London and the right to deploy miniguns to defend the President's convoy.

To add insult to injury, it's a state visit. The last US President to get one was Woodrow Wilson after the First World War. The idea that Bush is anything like Woodrow is laughable. The complete lack of cheering crowds should give that away.
Sandman is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 08:15   #2
Whaleboy
NationStatesAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessMac
Prince
 
Whaleboy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Posts: 853
I'm going to protest on Wednesday and Thursday in Parliament sq.
__________________
"I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
"You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:
Whaleboy is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 08:18   #3
DaShi
Emperor
 
DaShi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Taste of Japan
Posts: 9,611
Keep Bush in America!
__________________
“As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
Civ V Civilization V Civ5 CivV Civilization 5 Civ 5 - Do your part!
DaShi is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 08:27   #4
The Viceroy
Prince
 
The Viceroy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Colombo
Posts: 310
I like MOST other brits are happy to see him here

Its a state visit for gods sake .. We are entertaining the head of a foreign government, just because the president of the US happens to be somebody you personally don't agree with, doesn't mean the United States should not come on a State Visit.

If your not happy, go and vote Lib Dem at the next election, and then we'll see who's in the majority ??

Truth is, those opposed to Bush's visit, and the war in general will make a lot of noise .. but the majority will be silent, and happy to greet our allies. Long may the US and UK fight for freedom along side each other, the world is a much safer place when we act together to defend our common values.
__________________
"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon
The Viceroy is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 08:44   #5
Bugs ****ing Bunny
Emperor
 
Bugs ****ing Bunny's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Howling at the moon
Posts: 4,421
If you want to protest against anyone, protest against Blair. Otherwise I really can't see the point.
__________________
The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland
Bugs ****ing Bunny is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 08:54   #6
Evil Knevil
Prince
 
Evil Knevil's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: St Andrews, Scotland.
Posts: 413
Quote:
Originally posted by The Viceroy
I like MOST other brits are happy to see him here

Its a state visit for gods sake .. We are entertaining the head of a foreign government, just because the president of the US happens to be somebody you personally don't agree with, doesn't mean the United States should not come on a State Visit.

If your not happy, go and vote Lib Dem at the next election, and then we'll see who's in the majority ??

Truth is, those opposed to Bush's visit, and the war in general will make a lot of noise .. but the majority will be silent, and happy to greet our allies. Long may the US and UK fight for freedom along side each other, the world is a much safer place when we act together to defend our common values.
They're not my values.
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur
Evil Knevil is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:05   #7
Sandman
King
 
Sandman's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Just one more thing
Posts: 1,733
The fact that he and his entourage dictate a series of ridiculous demands is good enough reason to not allow him over here. What sort of idiot demands his bodyguards have the right to kill anybody they want? Why should London's economy be damaged so that he can get some nice PR shots of him with the Queen?
Sandman is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:05   #8
The Viceroy
Prince
 
The Viceroy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Colombo
Posts: 310
Evil Knevil .. what do you propose are the common value's that you don't share ??
__________________
"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon
The Viceroy is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:09   #9
The Viceroy
Prince
 
The Viceroy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Colombo
Posts: 310
Sandman, I believe some of the American's wishes have not been given to them.

I saw Clinton when I was at Portsmouth Uni back in 1994, and his entrance was nothing short of a military campaign .. the Americans have always been security concious, its part of the US Gov culture, especially since Sep11th .. They are on a state visit, and im perfectly happy that we will not suffer economically for this.

We invited them !!
__________________
"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon
The Viceroy is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:09   #10
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
I find it interesting that no president since Woodrow Wilson has visited England. How many times since has the British monarch visited the United States?

I wonder if these demostrations are going to affect the attitude of many Americans towards England. I suspect, that many would like a complete disruption of our alliance.
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:11   #11
Bugs ****ing Bunny
Emperor
 
Bugs ****ing Bunny's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Howling at the moon
Posts: 4,421
Quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
What sort of idiot demands his bodyguards have the right to kill anybody they want?
Just about every head of state. Next time you watch the Trooping of the Colour, take a look up at the rooftops and see how many rifle barrels you can see.
__________________
The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland
Bugs ****ing Bunny is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:12   #12
The Viceroy
Prince
 
The Viceroy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Colombo
Posts: 310
Ned, they are a small and very loud minority.

The American president knows that , and most of the British people do also.

The American's will continue to be our closest allies, regardless of what a few thousand people out of 60 million think.
__________________
"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon
The Viceroy is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:19   #13
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
I can't wait to have Bush here. I want to see what happens when he sees jeering crowds of people protesting his war. I think if there's an incident, like him being hit by a tomato or an egg, that's reported back in America, it could damage his election prospects more than the pictures with the Queen could help. The US got to see Tony Blair preaching about standing shoulder to shoulder before the war, I think it could cause some small damage if they realise that that was Blair, not England speaking, and that it wasn't as unified a statement as it sounded.
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:25   #14
Sandman
King
 
Sandman's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Just one more thing
Posts: 1,733
Quote:
We invited them !!
At their suggestion. This was all their idea.

Quote:
I find it interesting that no president since Woodrow Wilson has visited England. How many times since has the British monarch visited the United States?
State visits are different from normal visits.

Quote:
Just about every head of state. Next time you watch the Trooping of the Colour, take a look up at the rooftops and see how many rifle barrels you can see.
Ok, fair enough.
Sandman is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:26   #15
oedo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Prince
 
oedo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: and the revolution
Posts: 555
Quote:
Ned, they are a small and very loud minority.

The American president knows that , and most of the British people do also.
as I remember two million (!) Brits were peacefully protesting against the Gulf war last february. what makes you believe that they all turned into Bush supporters now? how many Brits were demonstrating for the Gulf war and the alliance of the willing?
__________________
justice is might
oedo is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:27   #16
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
I can't wait to have Bush here. I want to see what happens when he sees jeering crowds of people protesting his war. I think if there's an incident, like him being hit by a tomato or an egg, that's reported back in America, it could damage his election prospects more than the pictures with the Queen could help. The US got to see Tony Blair preaching about standing shoulder to shoulder before the war, I think it could cause some small damage if they realise that that was Blair, not England speaking, and that it wasn't as unified a statement as it sounded.
No Droque. The people of the United States will rally around their president if he is attacked by a British mob. All the attack will do is create a lot of hostility towards Britain in the US. But, again, I think that is exactly what the demonstrators want.
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:30   #17
Bugs ****ing Bunny
Emperor
 
Bugs ****ing Bunny's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Howling at the moon
Posts: 4,421
Quote:
Originally posted by oedo

how many Brits were demonstrating for the Gulf war and the alliance of the willing?
Protest is the tool of the underdog. That need not necessarily equate to numerical minority, admittedly.

I certainly see few protests for "Reinstate the Ba'athists!".
__________________
The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland
Bugs ****ing Bunny is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:40   #18
The Viceroy
Prince
 
The Viceroy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Colombo
Posts: 310
2 Million ?? out of 60 million .. thats a majority in some people's eyes .. yes, I doubt there really was 2 million, and the reason for the potention 1 million (which is more like the real figure) being there was not because they hated the US, or hated Bush. Many churches had anti WAR rallies that went that day as well. A lot of people turned out to see what it was all about, and the vast majority of people who really genuinly didn't want to see a war, and hoped it may stop it, but went on to support their troops anyhow in the event of war.

The Majority of the British people will not be represented by a small minority of thugs who as Ned says, are hoping the American people will feel angry towards Britain.

Far from Mr Blair expressing his own opinion, he was most certainly speaking as the prime minister, the head of the ruling party in this country .. if you don't like that, or if you feel that is not what the country should be represented by, vote for the Lib Dems .. and as I said earlier, we will then see what the country really thinks ..
__________________
"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon
The Viceroy is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:50   #19
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
It was1 million for sure, possibly more. The largest demonsration in British history.

Out of 60 million people that's a million who felt strongly enough to protest. Not like the normal protesters, ordinary mothers with their kids, a whole spectrum of the community.

And that was before we had proof that Bush and Blair had been blatantly distorting the facts about why we were doing it.

If a majority of the country supports it now then I'm ashamed of the people of my country.

We don't want to anger America we want to show the Americans that a lot of the peoplein her greatest ally don't support what their President is doing. Just as many Americans don't support what their President is doing.

What the country really thinks is that Blair is a slimy lying git, especially about this Iraq thing. He has been good economically - Brown? Unfortunately there's no realistic alternative.
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:51   #20
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
2 million protested, but many more agreed with them. Indeed, almost all polls shows a majority for not going to war. Blair may retain leadership through domestic success and other policies, but I think hell lose a few votes because of the war.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
No Droque. The people of the United States will rally around their president if he is attacked by a British mob. All the attack will do is create a lot of hostility towards Britain in the US. But, again, I think that is exactly what the demonstrators want.
True, but it will do that. It may also show some that his foreign policy did alienate others, and would give an opportunity for some Dem to capitalise that even the nation who stood side by side with the US is anti-bush. It may not have much effect, but a simple show of opposition to Bush from the UK may mean the visit doesn't help his election chances
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:55   #21
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
I really hate it when people tell me why I'm against something without having a clue.
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:55   #22
oedo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Prince
 
oedo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: and the revolution
Posts: 555
Quote:
Originally posted by The Viceroy
2 Million ?? out of 60 million .. thats a majority in some people's eyes .. yes

probably the next thing you´re going to say is, that 58 million British supported the war, since they didn´t go on the streets on a ****ing cold winter day...
__________________
justice is might
oedo is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 09:57   #23
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
It was1 million for sure, possibly more. The largest demonsration in British history.

Out of 60 million people that's a million who felt strongly enough to protest. Not like the normal protesters, ordinary mothers with their kids, a whole spectrum of the community.

And that was before we had proof that Bush and Blair had been blatantly distorting the facts about why we were doing it.

If a majority of the country supports it now then I'm ashamed of the people of my country.

We don't want to anger America we want to show the Americans that a lot of the peoplein her greatest ally don't support what their President is doing. Just as many Americans don't support what their President is doing.

What the country really thinks is that Blair is a slimy lying git, especially about this Iraq thing. He has been good economically - Brown? Unfortunately there's no realistic alternative.
Well said
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 10:06   #24
Sandman
King
 
Sandman's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Just one more thing
Posts: 1,733
If the special relationship is so important, why have him come here at all? Why put it at risk by exposing Bush to protestors, (and potentially) assassins and terrorists?
Sandman is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 10:09   #25
Starchild
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Starchild's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Posts: 3,646
I'm thinking about heading down on Thursday but hasn't London recently been placed on high alert for terrorist actions?
__________________
Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard Dawkins
Starchild is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 10:31   #26
The Viceroy
Prince
 
The Viceroy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Colombo
Posts: 310
NO .. Just because 1 or even 2 million people come out on the streets, it does not mean that the majority of people agree with you

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm

2 million ???

I did not say that therefore the majority do agree with the war, even though I personally have not seen anything to say otherwise. (in fact, many polls before the war showed a small majority in favour !!! but I personally don't think polls are a good indicator, as too much depends on the question being asked).

All that 1 million people demonstrating shows, is that 1 million people felt strongly enough to do so .. it does not say anything for the 59 who did not.

So Id say that the fact that there was the largest demo in British history showed we had the largest amount of people who felt strongly . .still does not make a majority.

I really hate it when people tell me why I'm against something without having a clue. - dito

Opinion polls :- Its all lies, damn lies and statistics. Im reminded (one again) of the Simpsons episode where the news reporter was praying that a law would be passed that would make media opinion polls legally binding (when Homer was accused of touching a baby siters backside) ..

I see no difference here, Sky news says 45% support the war .. oh god .. it must be right, lets make it legally binding.

At the end of the day, you lot who hate the US are free to vote for who the heck you like, and the fact that you have not yet voted somebody in who agree's with you, speaks volumes. The next election is your chance, vote for an anti American party, and do your worst .. truth is, Prime Minister blair will still be here .. and any party that supports your view .. consigned to 3rd place.
__________________
"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon
The Viceroy is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 10:33   #27
Sprayber
Apolyton Storywriters' Guild
Emperor
 
Sprayber's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: In Exile
Posts: 4,140
Re: Bush's visit to Britain
Quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
Yes, there's already a thread about this, but it's pretty incoherent, so I'd thought I'd start another one.

Who voted you the judger of incoherent threads here. Your just like those damned Americans thinking they know whats best and not checking with others.
__________________
Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh
Sprayber is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 10:51   #28
Tripledoc
ACDG The Human Hive
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 12:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 55
In a historical context, leaving aside the politics for a moment, when have demonstrators who have felt passionatley for a cause ever been proven wrong?

Were the French people who stormed Bastille wrong?
Were the Communards who rebelled against Napoleon III wrong?
Were the people who were massacred at Tianmen Square wrong?
Were the Solidairty movement protests in Poland wrong back in 1982?
Were the Serbs who set fire to the Serbian Parliament and ousted Slobodan Milosovic wrong?

History has proven them right time and time again.
Tripledoc is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 11:17   #29
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
Were the Brown Shirts of Hitler wrong?
Were the peasants following Pol Pot wrong?
Were the common soldiers of the Taliban wrong?
Were the Confederates wrong?
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
Old November 16, 2003, 11:25   #30
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
Were the Iranian students wrong?
Were the Boxer rebels wrong?
Were the Luddites wrong?
Were the Puritans rebeling against Charles I wrong?
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:37.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team