See what MODERATES can do in the Mid East!

[Zevico]

Imran, I did not say that you made him up. I stated quite clearly that he was not a moderate, and neither is any other politician in the PA, because the PA's leader is practically an autocrat-anyone who critises Arafat loses A LOT of political power and clout. I would ask you exactly how much popularity Abed Rabbo has, and also I would like to tell you that he currently has no actual power at all. Moreover, the plan was approved by Arafat, implying-at least in my eyes-that it is a ploy in order to attempt to gain legitamacy by Arafat as well as a ploy to gain more land and concessions in exchange for absolutely nothing, because Arafat has and always will be a liar. I do not mean Arafat is a liar in his politics, yet in his "non political" claims---A massacre of hundreds in Jenin; the arrest of hundreds of palestinian prisoners when hundreds were released; and many others like it.

Think about this as well: Abed Rabbo has joined an organisation which still praises the killing of Israelis, which educates Palestinians to hate Israelis. This plainly implies that Rabbo approves of such acts, or at the least, tolerates them. Is that someone to make peace with?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I stated quite clearly that he was not a moderate, and neither is any other politician in the PA, because the PA's leader is practically an autocrat-anyone who critises Arafat loses A LOT of political power and clout.

So he's not a moderate? Who would be a moderate in your eyes? A Palestinian who lays down and calls for Israel to rape him? Would a moderate to you be a Palestinian who says the Israelis can continue their military occupation indefinetly?

[Ramo]

Sounds like the fairest deal I've ever heard of on this issue. Needs to address water rights though...

Yep. Water could easily make or break the deal.

[Ned]

If Arafat were smart, he'd get IJ and Hamas and the other terror orgs to endorse the plan and make it an official proposal of Palestine.

That would put the "far-right" Sharon coalition in a bind.

Regardless, it's Arafat's move.

(Note carefully the NYTimes liberal bias. It always labels conservatives as "far-right" or "hard-right," while calling liberals "moderates" or inserting laudatory terms before any leftist appellation.)

[Az]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1066799672944

[Edan]

Forty-two percent of Palestinians and 61 percent of Israeli-Arabs stated that they support the people who are attacking Americans in Iraq.

I would have expected it to be the other way around.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
If Arafat were smart, he'd get IJ and Hamas and the other terror orgs to endorse the plan and make it an official proposal of Palestine.

You are assuming Arafat has much influence over those organizations. Why is it Republicans always think of their ideological opponents as being connected together by some secret conspiracy. First it was the KGB behind every revolt against dictatorship or discrimination, now t's Arafat or Hussein behind every terrorist.

Arafat is a secularist, and as such, is an enemy of both IJ and Hamas. It's just, for the moment, their strugle against Israel takes precidence. If there's ever a Palestinian state, expect a Palestinian Civil War.

[Az]

You're forgetting the El- Aqsa martyrs' brigade, the folks that broke that Hudna thingee.

[Zevico]

Who would be a moderate in your eyes?

For me? You're looking in the wrong place. I think the PA is a dead end if anyone wants to find someone who wants peace there. The reason? I wll repeat myself-and this also serves as the rebuttal for some of what you have just said:
Abed Rabbo has joined an organisation which still praises the killing of Israelis, which educates Palestinians to hate Israelis. This plainly implies that Rabbo approves of such acts, or at the least, tolerates them. Is that someone to make peace with?

A Palestinian who lays down and calls for Israel to rape him? Would a moderate to you be a Palestinian who says the Israelis can continue their military occupation indefinetly?

NO. Imran, a moderate is defined as such by the politicians around him. Perhaps you are right, then, to say that Abed Rabbo is a moderate in that sense of the word; to imply that he wants peace with Israel, or does not stand against those who blow themselves up to kill civilians is, however, a fallacy, because he has remained in an organisation for no doubt half his life time which indoctrinated people into killing Israelis.
Who would be someone that I think Israel could make peace with? I will attempt to post on this later today, as I have to go.

[Zevico]

Now then... a leader that I would think Israel could make peace with would:
1) FIRST AND FOREMOST, stop incitement against Israel in PA institutions and the education systems. By the very fact that Rabbo is in the PA and hasnt said a WORD about such things as this, I don't think he can make peace with Israel.
2) Secondly, this leader should order the security forces to fight terror however it can. A hudna isn't good enough; simply the definition of the word itself says so. If he is incapable of fighting terror, then he had better start getting himself capable.
3) Security forces should be purged of all Hamasniks and what have you. They should all be united into one police force only. This police force could have a better armed component in order to fight against terror groups, but that's all. The security force's salaries should be raised in order to encourage them to actually keep the law.
4) Once all this is done a period of economic rebuilding and quiet of 5 maybe 6 years should be had, where the PA administers what it did before in terms of territory. Corruption should be rooted out of the PA during this time and before as well.
5) Afterwards...it would hopefully be a matter of years and negotiations, not killing and violence. Personally I wouldn't mind a Palestinian state in Gaza/West Bank/Some of Jerusalem, as long as all these conditions are met first.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Abed Rabbo has joined an organisation which still praises the killing of Israelis, which educates Palestinians to hate Israelis. This plainly implies that Rabbo approves of such acts, or at the least, tolerates them. Is that someone to make peace with?

Before slavery was abolished, you had abolishonists as Representatives or Senators in the US. This is an organization which still backed the keeping of slaves, and mandated returning of escaping slaves. Are those abolishionists really against slavery?

What a piss poor argument! So everyone against the government's plans should advocate a violent overthrow? Obviously you've never heard of changing things from the inside.

I believe you are guilty of the logical falacy of guilt by association... which is especially bad here because that is the ONLY GOVERNMENT, set up by Israel itself, btw.

[Zevico]

Before slavery was abolished, you had abolishonists as Representatives or Senators in the US. This is an organization which still backed the keeping of slaves, and mandated returning of escaping slaves. Are those abolishionists really against slavery?

What a piss poor argument! So everyone against the government's plans should advocate a violent overthrow? Obviously you've never heard of changing things from the inside.

I believe you are guilty of the logical falacy of guilt by association... which is especially bad here because that is the ONLY GOVERNMENT, set up by Israel itself, btw.

Firstly, you liken the PA with the USA in a very strange way, because the PA is not a democratic institution, thus any change in government could really only occur if Arafat steps down (unlikely) or dies (even more unlikely).

Secondly, Abed Rabbo has been in the PA and PLO for quite a while. Has he at any point spoken out against the corruption or hatred being incited in either of these organisations? Did those Senators ever speak out against slavery? I do not know, but I would think that before a democratic election a Senator would publish some document stating what he is for and against to inform the voters, and in this way a Senator could speak out against slavery. Has Abed Rabbo done anything of the sort? No. Instead, Abed Rabbo remains in a party which currently guises its attacks against Israel by calling its military component ÒThe Al Aqsa MartyrÕs BrigadeÓ.

If you are right, and Abed Rabbo was trying to change the system from the inside, then would he not attempt to create his own political party along with other moderates and not stay with Arafat and the Fatah?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


This is why the right of return will be the dealbreaker.

Reread. Right of return applies to only 30000 Pals in proposed deal.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
Cause and effect reversal, meet Michael the Great. Oh, you two seem to be well acquainted already, I'm sorry.

The fact is, the continual and planned humiliation and harassment of the entire palestinian nation by the IDF was going on decades before the first suicide bombings happened. Now they just provide a somewhat convenient excuse for said activity.

CLAIM: Terrorist attacks on Israel are a result of the Israeli occupation of the west bank and the harassment of the entire palestinain nation.

Counter claim: Terrorist attacks on Israel have began long before the Israeli occupation of the west bank. The PLO was set up in 1964 (3 years before the occupation began) and Arafat's FATAH movement/party was set up in 1965 (2 years prior to the occupation).


Full text:

Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"?

Major Arab Terrorist Attacks against Israelis Prior to the 1967 Six-Day War

Ministry of Foreign Affairs, March 2002

Palestinian and Arab spokesmen commonly claim that the recent Palestinian terrorism is the result of the Israeli 'occupation' of the West Bank and Gaza, adding that the violence will cease only when the 'occupation' is ended.

Despite this claim, it should be recalled that the many Palestinian and Arab rejectionist factions (such as the Hamas and the Hizbullah) repeatedly declare that even if Israel would fully withdraw from the territories they will continue their attacks, since they refute Israel's basic right to exist.

More importantly, however, the basic premise of the Palestinian claim - that the 'occupation' causes terrorism - is historically flawed. Arab and Palestinian terrorism against Israel existed prior to the beginning of Israeli control over the West Bank and Gaza as a result of the Six Day War of June 1967, and even prior to the establishment of the State of Israel in May 1948.

For example, Arab terrorism was rampant during wave of anti-Jewish riots in 1920-21 (which was characterized by the brutal murder in Jaffa of the prominent Jewish author Y. Brenner), during the 'Disturbances' of 1929 (which included the massacre of the Jewish community in Hebron), during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39, and in many other recorded incidents of wholesale anti-Jewish Arab violence throughout the pre-state period.

The Palestinian terrorism campaign was stepped-up on the eve of the UN Partition Resolution of November 1947, and led to the joint Arab invasion of 1948-49 which delineated the boundaries of the newly established State of Israel.

Indeed, this deplorable violence can be traced back to the beginning of the renewed Jewish settlement of the Land of Israel over a century ago.

After the War of Independence, Arab terrorism expanded in scope. In 1952, when 'fedayeen' terrorist border incursions reached their height, there were about 3,000 incidents of cross-border violence, extending from the malicious destruction of property to the brutal murder of civilians. In the years 1951-1955, 503 Israelis were killed by Arab terrorists infiltrating from Jordan, 358 were killed in attacks from Egypt, and 61 were killed in attacks originating from Syria and Lebanon. This anti-Israeli violence encompassed both frontier settlements and population centers, and was perpetrated, for the most part, against innocent civilians, most of them new immigrants.

In conclusion, the oft-repeated Arab claim that the Israeli 'occupation' is somehow to blame for the Palestinian terrorism is nothing more than an empty retort, repudiated by the facts, and disproved by a century of historical reality.

The following is a partial list of documented acts of Arab terrorism, all occurring prior to the beginning of the Israeli administration of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967:

Major Arab Terrorist Attacks against Israelis Prior to the 1967 Six-Day War

Jan 1, 1952 - Seven armed terrorists attacked and killed a nineteen year-old girl in her home, in the neighborhood of Beit Yisrael, in Jerusalem.

Apr 14, 1953 - Terrorists tried for the first time to infiltrate Israel by sea, but were unsuccessful. One of the boats was intercepted and the other boat escaped.

June 7, 1953 - A youngster was killed and three others were wounded, in shooting attacks on residential areas in southern Jerusalem.

June 9, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a farming community near Lod, and killed one of the residents. The terrorists threw hand grenades and sprayed gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group of terrorists attacked a house in the town of Hadera. This occurred a day after Israel and Jordan signed an agreement, with UN mediation, in which Jordan undertook to prevent terrorists from crossing into Israel from Jordanian territory.

June 10, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrating from Jordan destroyed a house in the farming village of Mishmar Ayalon.

June 11, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a young couple in their home in Kfar Hess, and shot them to death.

Sept 2, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and reached the neighborhood of Katamon, in the heart of Jerusalem. They threw hand grenades in all directions. Miraculously, no one was hurt.

Mar 17, 1954 - Terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel Aviv, and opened fire at short range when the bus reached the area of Maale Akrabim in the northern Negev. In the initial ambush, the terrorists killed the driver and wounded most of the passengers. The terrorists then boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one. Eleven passengers were murdered. Survivors recounted how the murderers spat on the bodies and abused them. The terrorists could clearly be traced back to the Jordanian border, some 20 km from the site of the terrorist attack.

Jan 2, 1955 - Terrorists killed two hikers in the Judean Desert.

Mar 24, 1955 - Terrorists threw hand grenades and opened fire on a crowd at a wedding in the farming community of Patish, in the Negev. A young woman was killed, and eighteen people were wounded in the attack.

Apr 7, 1956 - A resident of Ashkelon was killed in her home, when terrorists threw three hand grenades into her house.
Two members of Kibbutz Givat Chaim were killed, when terrorists opened fire on their car, on the road from Plugot Junction to Mishmar Hanegev.
There were further hand grenade and shooting attacks on homes and cars, in areas such as Nitzanim and Ketziot. One person was killed and three others wounded.

Apr 11, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a synagogue full of children and teenagers, in the farming community of Shafrir. Three children and a youth worker were killed on the spot, and five were wounded, including three seriously.

Apr 29, 1956 - Egyptians killed Roi Rotenberg, 21 years of age, from Nahal Oz.

Sept 12, 1956 - Terrorists killed three Druze guards at Ein Ofarim, in the Arava region.

Sept 23, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire from a Jordanian position, and killed four archaeologists, and wounded sixteen others, near Kibbutz Ramat Rachel.

Sept 24, 1956 - Terrorists killed a girl in the fields of the farming community of Aminadav, near Jerusalem.

Oct 4, 1956 - Five Israeli workers were killed in Sdom.

Oct 9, 1956 - Two workers were killed in an orchard of the youth village, Neve Hadassah, in the Sharon region.

Nov 8, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a train, attacked cars and blew up wells, in the North and Center of Israel. Six Israelis were wounded.

Feb 18, 1957 - Two civilians were killed by terrorist landmines, next to Nir Yitzhak, on the southern border of the Gaza Strip.

Mar 8, 1957 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Beit Govrin was killed by terrorists in a field near the Kibbutz.

Apr 16, 1957 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and killed two guards at Kibbutz Mesilot.

May 20, 1957 - A terrorist opened fire on a truck in the Arava region, killing a worker.

May 29, 1957 - A tractor driver was killed and two others wounded, when the vehicle struck a landmine, next to Kibbutz Kisufim.

June 23, 1957 - Israelis were wounded by landmines, close to the Gaza Strip.

Aug 23, 1957 - Two guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company were killed near Kibbutz Beit Govrin.

Dec 21, 1957 - A member of Kibbutz Gadot was killed in the Kibbutz fields.

Feb 11, 1958 - Terrorists killed a resident of Moshav Yanov who was on his way to Kfar Yona, in the Sharon area.

Apr 5, 1958 - Terrorists lying in ambush shot and killed two people near Tel Lachish.

Apr 22, 1958 - Jordanian soldiers shot and killed two fishermen near Aqaba.

May 26, 1958 - Four Israeli police officers were killed in a Jordanian attack on Mt. Scopus, in Jerusalem.

Nov 17, 1958 - Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air attache in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian Convent on the Mt. of the Beatitudes.

Dec 3, 1958- A shepherd was killed at Kibbutz Gonen. In the artillery attack that followed, 31 civilians were wounded.

Jan 23, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Lehavot Habashan was killed.

Feb 1, 1959 - Three civilians were killed by a terrorist landmine near Moshav Zavdiel.

Apr 15, 1959 - A guard was killed at Kibbutz Ramat Rahel.

Apr 27, 1959 - Two hikers were shot at close range and killed near Massada.

Sept 6, 1959 - Bedouin terrorists killed a paratroop reconnaissance officer near Nitzana.

Sept 8, 1959 - Bedouins opened fire on an army bivouac in the Negev, killing an IDF officer, Captain Yair Peled.

Oct 3, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Heftziba was killed near Kibbutz Yad Hana.

Apr 26, 1960 - Terrorists killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.

Apr 12, 1962 - Terrorists fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.

Sept 30, 1962 - Two terrorists attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.

Jan 1, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier. This was the first attack carried out by the PLO's Fatah faction.

May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.

June 1, 1965 - Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftach.

July 5, 1965 - A Fatah cell planted explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.

Aug 26, 1965 - A waterline was sabotaged at Kibbutz Manara, in the Upper Galilee.

Sept 29, 1965 - A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.

Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were miraculously unhurt.

Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in Moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit Shean Valley.

May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks led into Syria.

July 13, 1966 - Two soldiers and a civilian were killed near Almagor, when their truck struck a terrorist landmine.

July 14, 1966 - Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.

July 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.

Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.


[picture] JUNE 9, 1953
Policemen inspecting a house blown up by a grenade at Moshav Tirat Yehuda.

[picture] MARCH 17, 1954
Ambushed Egged bus from Eilat to Beer Sheva.


[picture] MARCH 17, 1954
Five of the bodies inside Egged bus ambushed by terrorists at Ma'ale Akrabim.
The body of an Egged bus driver, mudered at Ma'ale Akrabim.

[picture] APRIL 11, 1956
Prayer book and skull caps lay in pool of dried blood of school synagogue at Shafrir after attack by fedayeen.


[picture] MAY 29, 1957
Tractor and wagon were blown up by an Egyptian mine near Kissufim.

[picture] MAY 29, 1957
The ruins of the house blown up by fedayeen on the Seiff Estate at Tel Mond.

[picture] NOVEMBER 7, 1965
David Zalmanovitz and his wife Miriam standing in front of their house at Moshav Givat Yeshayahu damaged by Fatah terrorists from Jordan.

[Sirotnikov]

Imran, Abed Rabo is one of Arafat's closest mates. He appeares to have some role in each and every government since 1993. It's the same people, just different ministry arrangements

Arafat is no pragmatist and neither is Abed Rabo.

---

Siro now ponders that this is probably one of the last posts he will make on the ME subject.