Early game for poor econ

CEO Aaron · November 17, 2003, 17:38

I'm trying to expand my SMAX horizons, and as such, I've been interested in some of the economically impaired factions, like Yang and FungBoy. My previously successful strategems have all revolved around heavy forestation and +2 econ to get the early energy for quality research, but I find with impaired base square energy, I'm heavily limited in the amount of energy I can collect, and thus the amount of research I can achieve?

So what are you Yang fans doing for early energy production? What kind of tech beelines do you use? Help.

Snowflake · November 17, 2003, 18:10

My understanding is you use your industrial and police strength and form lots small bases. Of course beeline to IA.

Archaic · November 18, 2003, 03:07

I agree with HongHu there. You can't really do it by quality, so do it by quantity. Leverage your policing abilities to build many small bases, ignoring efficiency limits, and build the PTS ASAP (It'll boom all your size 1 and 2 bases to size 3 instantly on completion). You'll never have as good an economy as most of the other factions, but you can switch over to FM/Wealth later on, and use GA's in some bases to both boom and create further income. While the income isn't as much as other factions, your industrial might will balance that out.

johndmuller · November 18, 2003, 03:35

Rivers: make the most out of them.

Formers: 2 per base, or more.

Solar Collectors: don't be too picky about the altitude; do more farm-solars than usual (it helps with the pop growth too).

EBanks: bite the bullet and build them (NetNodes are important too).

Extortion: do it (especially from Morgan).

Hippi · November 18, 2003, 05:24

Yang can do well with energy if he manages to trade tech with the other factions properly. Try building the merchant exchange to increase energy production.

But when yang reaches the mid game, energy comes easiely from boreholes and such

and then again. -2 economy means -1 energy per base. That's much in the early game only and in practice is just the same as running with 0 economy in mid game. no big deal :P

Lazerus · November 18, 2003, 13:39

Don't bother with energy, simple enough really. I get wealth and that knocks it up to -1 at HQ, after that you're basically on the same starting level as most. Now its time to learn how to play ICS, 50 bases atleast with 4-6 energy each is quite easy to get to quickly, i hardly bother with infrastructure until a base has easily 25min (crawlers and formers to knock up mines quick, get the WP ! ) most of the time you'll be running 80% labs in the early game, only time you might need to go a higher econ is if you've got no cash from pods and you need it for those SE changes which you need to get implmented asap, especially planned before 2115.

You should be able to keep up a tech rate of 1 per 5 turns early, dropping to 1 per 8 and then 1 per 10/11 by yourself, getting trade raises it abit and if Lal isn't around then getting govt and more trade keeps you at 1/6. If you start to stagnate then trade as much as possible (well, techs that help you anyways even if they aren't on your route, its not like your beeline is going to be that speedy so slowing down by a turn wont hurt as much) If people wont trade and start shunning you then goto war early, hit them hard and dont relent, worst thing to do is march along slowly while they speed off and get fusion choppers basically rendering your numerical advantage obsolete for along time.

Anyways, after you've got eco engineering you've got a choice, get air power and go for war or get the energy restrictions lifted and make planet scream with boreholes everywhere, 2 per base atleast, crawl condensors between them (or just work forests and get a Rtank). This is where the real quantity over quality energy thing comes into play.
You can also make a few bases specialists only if you've got lucky and theres a few nut squares in the area.

Planetary networks -> Industrial Automation -> ecological engineering (and try pick up intellectual integrity along the way, 1-1-1-police are you're best friend)
With most things taken into account you'll normally have eco engineering by 2150 (i think, cant remember if its 40 or if im being too optimistic). This tech really brings out your true power. Remember Hive is Minerals over Energy.

I'd go against a few things said here:

The merchant exchange is 99% useless for Yang, your bases are going to be small for along time, theres much better stuff to get early and you'll most likely beat some1 to the SP's they want leaving them with junk like the HGP (for Hive, since you'll be dealing with super drones) and ME.

Farms and solar collectors, why ? get the WP, you've got enough formers to get condensors and borholes just as easily.

Ebanks, with the amount of bases you're going to have? (and the fact you're only going to be getting 2 ec extra from most) you seriously need every SP that is going to give you something at every base so make it a must to get stuff like the planetary energy grid. If somebody else is building it and they wont give you the tech cos you'll build it first, then screw them, go steal or take it, theyre going to have one of their highest mineral bases making the thing and likely you'll have 10 other average mineral bases to contend with as compared to your 70+ bases totally geared towards mineral production and high industry.

Lazerus · November 18, 2003, 14:03

Also a note on swithing to FM : Ouch ! takes serious planning, you're going to have a heck of alot of bases that are totally dependant on those police units so make sure you've got net nodes in most and virtual world or something to cover.

Ogie Oglethorpe · November 20, 2003, 02:33

Yang,

Key is his support when running police and his industy bonus.

His support allows for a number of units to be sent combing the fungus for worms. Troll up some worms and bingo you have some cash.

The other helpful thing is to tech detour to biogenetics rather early (say after formers) for recycle tanks. His industry allows for quick builds and rapidly gets you back into a average energy situation.

As others inidcated next step is beeline to IA and establishing the tried and true Police/Planned/wealth combo. (Once in that you'll likely never have to switch).

Yang is best situated to get WP and have his scads of formers go the condensor/farm route. He can rather quickly achieve sizes above 5 thus allowing meaningful specialization. Not to mention PTS and pod booming as well.

CEO Aaron · November 20, 2003, 18:12

Gah. This is just not happening. Any Yang fans out there care to post some example games? Say through 2150 or so? My tech rate in all the games I'm playing is poop, so I'm not getting anywhere near IA, to say nothing of Intellectual Integrity (needed for police, without which I'm stuck in drone hell). Transcend difficulty, large map.

Flare · November 20, 2003, 20:47

~Grins~ Yes, I agree with CEO Aaron. I know that I am a mid level player at best. I would also love to see some saved games, but up to, oh, 2100 or so. I would greatly appreciate it!

Thanks,
Kevin

CEO Aaron · November 20, 2003, 21:59

Uh, Flare. 2101 is the starting year.

ErikM · November 20, 2003, 21:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazerus
With most things taken into account you'll normally have eco engineering by 2150 (i think, cant remember if its 40 or if im being too optimistic). This tech really brings out your true power. Remember Hive is Minerals over Energy.

I would love to see some saves to learn how to get EcoEng by 2150 with Yang. It is not exactly trivial to get EcoEng by 2150 with Zakharov, although it is certainly possible with a good starting position. But Yang?

Chaos Theory · November 21, 2003, 03:17

Aaron: Intellectual Integrity is astoundingly easy to get with Yang. Here's how that portion of the tech tree looks:

__________________/Ethical Calculus\
Intellectual Integrity<_______________>Social Psych
__________________\Doctrine: Loyalty<
___________________________________\Doctrine: Mobility

Yang starts with Doc: Loy so he just needs to research/trade for Eth Calc and maybe Social Psych and he can get Intellectual Integrity. Admittedly, this puts you off the IA beeline, but if you can trade for just Eth Calc you're one tech from having Intellectual Integrity.

TheRedmenace · November 21, 2003, 04:28

Going FM as Yang is like shooting yourself in the foot. Since you can't take democracy, the only good gov't choice is going to be PS unless you want to compound your economic difficulties with -20% research. FM is going to negate your police advantage, and you can't go democratic for the +2 effic. That is a population management nightmare.

Better option - Police State - Planned Economy - Wealth. That will compound your industry bonus and give you the police you need to keep your drones in line and armies to spare. Now go conquer your way to technological parity.

Since probe teams operations don't count as betrayals, you can just steal tech, "defend yourself" when faction leaders have had enough, and still come out the good guy in the end. Honestly there's no reason to do anything else. Yang will never make a good builder. That +30% industry is there so you can roll out units without a whole lot of infrastructure.

A lot of times when I play yang, it's a beeline to impact weapons, and then it's pretty much exclusively military production except for colony pods and the basics you need to get the colonies operational.

UnityScoutChopper · November 21, 2003, 05:37

Yang is a plenty good builder, with a cross between the advantages of Miriam and Domai. That is, as long as you restrict your definition of "builder" to "builder of terraforming and buildings." You just have to be careful not to build the ones out of which you get nothing due to your lousy economy and efficiency. You'd be surprised how many are left after that.

USC

Jamski · November 21, 2003, 06:03

Laz should post a saved game. He's a holy terror with the Hive. By 2150 he gets so big and with so many minerals...

Hive should conquer the world before air power comes round, if played well.

-Jam