Imperium Romanum released...

[CyberChrist]

quote: cpoulos wrote: Cyberchrist is wrong. ... In four other accounts I've read of Hannibal's campaign, not one says that any elephants survived the Alps crossing.

I am sorry to say it but it is you who are wrong - quite wrong as well. Not only did some of the elephants survive the crossing(ok perhaps it wasn't a few dozens - that was what he started out with) but Hannibal also got another 40 elephants in reinforcements from Africa later on while in Italy. So even if you choose to believe that no elephants survived the alps the fact still remains - Hannibal DID use Elephants in his campaign in Italy.

Here are some links to documents that clearly support this.

From SSNP Library
From Boise State University
From The History Net
From Illustrated History of the Roman Empire

The reason the Elephants was not mentioned in the writings you have read is probably due to the fact that Hannibal made very little use of the remaining elephants(perhaps with the exception of the battle at Trebia River) and they therefore never had much of an impact in Italy.

You refer only to the battle at Cannae, but that first took place in 216BC - Hannibal entered Italy from the Alps in 218BC. Many battles were fought (with Elephants) before then (Trebia River among others).

Here is a link also describing the battle of Trebia, but one that doesn't mention the Elephants that WERE present and even quite uesfull. Just goes to show that that some descriptions of the ancient times and battles are often incomplete and lacking, perhaps because it is deemed unimportant (doh).

From Columbia Encyclopedia

If you think logically about it then Hannibal was not very likely to have become known for crossing the Alps with his Elephants - if he hadn't in fact done so.

EDIT: Messed up some of the links

[This message has been edited by CyberChrist (edited February 06, 2001).]

[CyberChrist]

Ok, more bad news.

There is an error in the events file for the English version for Rome 146BC.

I have not been able to locate the problem so far.

EDIT: Ok I figured it out, the Greeks were totally destroyed(assimilated into Rome) before this change of event files. I guess Civ gets confused when there are references to nonexistent nations, so I removed the events for both Athens and Syracusae from the Events.txt and there were no problem. (serves me right for being brutal )

[This message has been edited by CyberChrist (edited February 06, 2001).]

[Ceteram]

DOOMDOOMDOOM!

The third events file is buggy and unplayable, just as CyberChrist pointed it out- I tried everything possible manually, to no avail.

But it worked when I first played the scen...

Ok: I read that post above while writing this, I will try CyberChrists advice.

[Chris 62]

Cyber,three out of the four sources you list say no elephants survived the Alps crossing. My main source is Polybius, who wrote at the time, and Fabius Pictor, who was present at Cannae, as well as becoming a Roman senator. Contemperary accouts are not more accurate then those written by those who were there. The breed of elephant used by the Carthaginians was the small north african, which is now extinct. This animal was between 8 and 10 feet in hieght, and could not survive at high alltitudes. This is what killed them in the alps, not the cold! Kudos on Trebia, as I had forgotten it. Read the Latin texts on this campaign and you will see that no elephants survived the first crossing.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Prometeus]

Both of you were wrong... only one of these elephants survived to Alps crossing.

[BeBro]

Ceteram and CyberChrist, I just tested the third events file (Fantastic Worlds, Romans, 250BC, Greeks destroyed around 240BC) - but it worked fine

What version do you play, FW or MGE?

I can rework the events with using ANYBODY as defender, not the civname, but I need some time for this.

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Civ2000

[CyberChrist]

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 02-06-2001 05:35 AM Cyber,three out of the four sources you list say no elephants survived the Alps crossing.

They most certainly do not! They say only a few survived, just like I have been saying. I have included the sections where they in fact does support that not ALL (most sure, but not ALL) elephants perished.

SSNP Library
He did not begin to cross until early fall, which meant that he encountered winterlike conditions in the Alpine region. His force suffered greatly from the elements and the hostility of local tribesmen. He lost most of his elephants, and by the time he reached northern Italy, his army was reduced to about 26,000 men, 6,000 of whom were Cavalry. However, the number was quickly raised to about 40,000 by the addition of Gauls.

Boise State University
He arrived in Italy with only 26,000 men and about two dozen elephants. So, while it is true that Hannibal brought his elephants across the Alps, he did so only at great loss. Most died either at the Rhone or in the Alps.

The History Net
Although his crossing of the Alps with the elephants is widely remembered, Hannibal made surprisingly little use of them. In fact, most of the 34 elephants he started with died during the mountain passage or during the severe winter that followed.

The Illustrated History of the Roman Empire
Having famously crossed the Alps with his elephants, Hannibal descended into Italy and wrought havoc against the Roman forces.
Major battles took place at Trebia and at Lake Trasimene, in both of which Hannibal remained victorious.
A lot is made of the psychological impact his elephants had on terrified Roman troops.
But by the battle of Cannae all Hannibal's elephants had died.


Polybius might very well say that no elephants were present at the Battle of Cannae - but I ALREADY pointed that out in my previous post, AND that battle took place 2 YEARS after Hannbial crossed the Alps and entered Italy!

And you yourself admit to the elephants being present at the Battle at Trebia which took place BEFORE Cannae, how can you then claim that whatever Plybius wrote about elephants at Cannea has ANY kind of bearing on whether any survived crossing the Alps?
Was HE present at the crossing or at Trebia as well? I thought not.
So that reference is totally useless for supporting any notion that no elephants survived the Alps

And before you start claiming that the elephants used at Trebia River was the reinforcements from Africa then these reinforcements only came AFTER he had won the battle at Cannae.

Please brush up on your reading-the-entire-message-skills both in regard to reference-links and posts in forums before you go on a you are so wrong finger-pointing crusade again, thank you!

EDIT: hmm, got a little worked up over this - sorry about that

[This message has been edited by CyberChrist (edited February 06, 2001).]

[CyberChrist]

oops, disregard this one

[This message has been edited by CyberChrist (edited February 06, 2001).]

[CyberChrist]

I use MPG.

I suspect all other nation references would cause the same error if that nation had been destroyed prior to applying the new events.txt file.

In case of CityCapture ANYBODY should work just fine as long as it is kept a JUSTONCE event.
You might find other nation specific events impossible to fix this way though.

[Chris 62]

Nice try kid, but I was just going easy on you. Read my response more carefully! You are in error! And stop with the links tripe. Read the Latin texts(as I had to), and except that the possiblity exists that you may be wrong. I do all the time. I don't comment on what I don't know. For the last time NO ELEPHANTS! Read real history, not popular internet nonsense.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Civfan]

A small question Bebro, the Arsenal is the cleanest source of power but it produces pollution in Rome even if you remove all the workers from the land. Was this intended to be like this?

The first punic war saw much more use of ships, maybe more ships for the Carthagians through events would solve this.

[CyberChrist]

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 02-06-2001 09:22 AM Nice try kid, but I was just going easy on you.

Who heck do you think you are?! What nerve!

quote: Read my response more carefully! You are in error!

I did, you obviously failed to read mine - or at least failed to understand it.

quote: Read the Latin texts(as I had to), and except that the possiblity exists that you may be wrong. I do all the time.

Maybe you where the one reading the latin texts wrong, just like you misread the text I refered to. Thought of that possibility?
How about delivering some extracts from these texts? Surely they exist somewhere on the net for us (obviously lesser mortals in your eyes) to behold.

quote: I don't comment on what I don't know. For the last time NO ELEPHANTS!

You should learn how to back up your claims with something more tangible than merely saying "It is so because I say so".

quote: Read real history, not popular internet nonsense.

So universities and publishers of history books and encyclopedias are talking nonsense are they?


As I don't expect the reply to this post to be anything but yet more ramblings, I wont be posting any further on this subject as it would appear that any sane and civilized communication is impossible.

[BeBro]

Civfan, it was intendet that you can have pollution, as a simulation of plagues or so. But I´m unsure why you have so much, have you sold the Sewer Channel improvement that is prebuilded in Rome? If not research for Thermes...

BTW, what version do you play, and have you also any other problems? And how is your own Rome scn going?



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Civ2000

[Chris 62]

Ever read Livy? Or Polybius? Obviously not. There is simply no way to deal with people like you, who think you know it all. Just ignore my posts, as I surely will yours, for I now know what your about.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[RobRoy]

Nice job, BeBro! Congrats.

Haven't noticed any major new issues. I'll try to send an e:mail with a few more little nits, for your consideration.

FWIW, I tried killing off the Greeks via Cheat Menu, but I couldn't recreate the problem with EVENTSR2 that has been reported. I am also using the MGE, but I understand there is a slight difference between the U.S. and European version of MGE. I'm almost at that point in my regular game, so I'll see if I can kill off the Greeks in it and whether I can replicate the error. It makes sense that the program would reject an events file that refers to a deceased civ; but perhaps, in certain versions or under certain circumstances, the name of the destroyed civ is somehow retained.

In retrospect, I'm really glad you bent over backwards to make the Macedonians and Cartheginians playable. It was certainly worth the wait.

EDIT: By the way, I thought the German text for the Tower of Babel WAS a joke - and a fairly entertaining one, at that.
[This message has been edited by RobRoy (edited February 06, 2001).]

[SixArmedMan]

How can you blatantly ignore four references which state that the elephants survived? Did you even bother to check the bibliography or any footnotes on any of these links? It'd be narrowminded to ignore any references from a website, simply because its origins stem from "the internet". In any case, you DID misread the links he provided... Isn't it possible you're wrong in this case? That you might've misread your sources as well?

[Djugashvili]

great scenario young man! i wasted 7 hours sitting on my ass last saturday playing as the romans... im wondering which path the romans historically took, ya know to gauge how im doing... did they conquer southern or norhtern italy first? did they set out to conquer the south of what is now france (niceae, massilia) or greece and albania first? what were their priorities? im not real familiar with this era so answering these questions might help me rate my performace while playing... spose it doesnt really matter as long as the romans rule the world in the end tho.. oh well id like to know dammit!

[CyberChrist]

Small correction appear to be needed in the Roman events file 3 (may be needed on the other events files as well).

The randomly generated Macedonian Hypaspists and Hetaroi at loc 85,81 seems to be placed wrong. Sardes is located at 86,82. This means the Macedonians will keep getting units just outside Sardes even when Sardes is conquered.

[SunTzu]

Hannibal brought 32 elephants across the alps all but 10 Died. He had 10 elephants that survived to fight. I just looked it up in my History book today during school.

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http://www.civfanatics.com Staff


Bah! Can't use my sig

[BeBro]

Djugashvili, at the time the scenario starts the Romans fought mainly in against the Etrucans (from the north) and several Italic tribes in middle Italy. 327BC started the war(s) against the Samnites. At its end in 290BC the Romans ruled Italy from the Arno (sp?) river (on the scn map not included, nearly at the same "height" as the northern top of Sardinia) to the Campanian territory in the South.

280BC started the war against Pyrrhos in Southern Italy, some years later all Greek cities there were in Roman hands

264BC the first Punic ar against Carthage broke out, fights were mainly on Sicily, which became the first regular Roman province at the end of the war in 241BC.

Northern Italy (the Po valley) was conquered later (if I recall correctly, Mediolanum 222BC? - perhaps we should ask Prometeus )

Greece came under Roman influence after the Roman victory against Macedonia 168BC (finally with the destruction of Corinth in 146BC), Southern France was under Roman rule since Caesar´s first campaigns (58BC)against Germans and Gauls, but some cities there had some kind of autonomy even later, e.g. Massilia, which was allied with Rome during the Punic wars, but later conquered by Caesar 49BC (?), who didn´t accept the neutrality of the city in the civil war .

For the scenario I recommend that you take middle Italy, then the North, and then the South (because in the scn the Southern cities are harder to capture)

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Civ2000

BeBro or anybody else who's played this scenario, I have a question.

How difficult is the AI? Will the AI actually launch noteworthy attacks that can capture your cities? Like in Nemo scenarios where he heavily uses the moveunit command and you can actually lose vast amounts of land. In almost every scenario you never have to worry about losing cities because the AI is so stupid. I'm just wondering if this scenario is geared like Nemo's to make the AI a worthy foe.

[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by SixArmedMan on 02-06-2001 11:29 AM How can you blatantly ignore four references which state that the elephants survived? Did you even bother to check the bibliography or any footnotes on any of these links? It'd be narrowminded to ignore any references from a website, simply because its origins stem from "the internet". In any case, you DID misread the links he provided... Isn't it possible you're wrong in this case? That you might've misread your sources as well?

If you go back further in the thread, you will see that I didn't blatenly ignore his references. This started as a point that should an Elephant be used in this scenario as a battle unit in northern Italy. I agree that it would indeed be narrow minded to ignore information from any source. I lost my temper with him and probaly should not have. What I was trying to convey was that the historians who were there state bluntly on the issue of Elephants that they were not there. It is certinly possibe that some of these creatures did survive the crossing. The real point I was trying to get accross(and none to successfully I now see) was to not accept at face value quicky history lessons over the net. I understand that men like Livy and Polybius can be long winded and boreing to the modern reader. And your right, I should have been more clear in my opinions, but it drives me to distraction that people jump to a site and say "your wrong". Did he think BeBro didn't research this point? Did he think I pulled it out of thin air? He as much as said so. Also, these Elephants did not have the impact that Indian Elephants had on Alexander's army, as the Indian was nearly twice the size of the small north african elephant. Right or wrong, this is what I think about this subject. His statement that I point out a web site for him to check really p*ssed me off, as this is the whole thing in miniature. Read Livy's history of the Second Punic War, go to a library and get it, because your not going to finish it in one sitting, was what I was trying to convey. I hope this clears the air on my intentions. I don't know it all. Not even close. He should look in the mirror and say the same thing.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Djugashvili]

well hey then Im doin pretty good! i think im in the 180s or so and i have much of central europe from the barbs, conquered greece, and am now campaigning in iberia and sitting outside Pella... funny, mediolanum is one of the first couple cities i took... what i dont like about this scenario is the fact that the AI builds so many damn cities and turkey has like NO infrastructure... this isnt really major, it just bothers me... is there a way to turn off settlers for the AI players? i mean i know theres a way, but would u do it? would it royally screw things up or what?

[Djugashvili]

(playing on proconsul btw)

[CyberChrist]

I have found another incorrect (I assume) random unit creation.

Barbarian Cimbri and Teutons are being created at location 52,54 a hill just next to Opitergium (loc 50,54).

[BeBro]

MagyarCrusader, the AI abilities depend from what civ you play. If you play as Romans, AI Macedonians are heavily supported via events, but there forces are sent in the East, to conquer Persia. In most of the games, they conquer more than a half of Persia, but sometimes the game develops completely different.

If you play as Macedonians or as Carthaginians the Romans are supported via events, and, especially at the time of the Punic wars, a Carthaginian player should loose several cities (as well one who plays Macadonians).

Also a Roman player can loose some cities (as in Ceteram´s or SunTzu first games), if he didn´t check the events out before playing, but I wouldn´t this compare with the AI onslaught in Red Front, since the historical situations are completely different and so it was not intendet that the Romans are overrun by enemy forces

Djugashvili, disabling settlers generally for the AI would perhaps make the scenario too easy, I think

CyberChrist, this is no real error. During the tests I thought the same as you, and want to move their creation points into Opitergium, but then I did not, because it seems not too unrealistic that Barb plunderers appear directly in front of a Roman city



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Civ2000

[C0ckney]

Damn I'm behind,

Its 182 BC Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, Southern Gaul (up to Narbo), most of dalmatia is mine (except that damn city on a hill) and I am preparing a campain against the Macedonians.

But I know I am behind with science, still no siege towers and the independents are a pain in Gaul.

Great scenario Stefan, should keep me busy for weeks

[BeBro]

Err, Cockney, I agree that Stefan Haertel makes great scns, but my name is Bernd...

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Civ2000

[Prometeus]

quote: Originally posted by BeBro on 02-06-2001 06:24 PM Djugashvili, at the time the scenario starts the Romans fought mainly in against the Etrucans (from the north) and several Italic tribes in middle Italy. 327BC started the war(s) against the Samnites. At its end in 290BC the Romans ruled Italy from the Arno (sp?) river (on the scn map not included, nearly at the same "height" as the northern top of Sardinia) to the Campanian territory in the South. 280BC started the war against Pyrrhos in Southern Italy, some years later all Greek cities there were in Roman hands 264BC the first Punic ar against Carthage broke out, fights were mainly on Sicily, which became the first regular Roman province at the end of the war in 241BC. Northern Italy (the Po valley) was conquered later (if I recall correctly, Mediolanum 222BC? - perhaps we should ask Prometeus ) Greece came under Roman influence after the Roman victory against Macedonia 168BC (finally with the destruction of Corinth in 146BC), Southern France was under Roman rule since Caesar´s first campaigns (58BC)against Germans and Gauls, but some cities there had some kind of autonomy even later, e.g. Massilia, which was allied with Rome during the Punic wars, but later conquered by Caesar 49BC (?), who didn´t accept the neutrality of the city in the civil war . For the scenario I recommend that you take middle Italy, then the North, and then the South (because in the scn the Southern cities are harder to capture)

I couldn't say it better, BeBro, i'm impressed... Mediolanum was conquered in 222, but Insubrians lost all of their indipendence only after their last revolt that finished in 80 BC ( and no one of them received roman citizen status until Caesar ).

[C0ckney]

quote: Originally posted by BeBro on 02-07-2001 08:59 AM Err, Cockney, I agree that Stefan Haertel makes great scns, but my name is Bernd...

oops sorry, blimy I'm not having a good day