RPG's need an overhaul - Page 2

DarkCloud · November 30, 2003, 13:30

Quote:

well I just had some ideas running around my head like defense values and such. These would go up as you gain experience. I would like to see dexterity play more of a part.

Let's put it this way. Why should a level 20 fighter with a dexterity of 8 avoid damage better than a level 1 fighter with a dexterity of 8?

I agree with that, that is a real failing of Dungeons and Dragons. When you get to the high levels it really gets quite tedious bashing around enemies, etc.

I suppose someone could sort of revise the system, making there be 'area-damage' (like in Battletech) or perhaps not increasing the hitpoints but giving the player points to put into Dexterity or Strength or "Tough Hide" etc. so that they can increase their innurity to pain and ability to take more punishment, etc.

Example- instead of 5 HP and 15 Hit Die to Hit going to 50 HP and 15 Hit Die to Hit, you would have...
10 HP because you maxed out "tough hide", then because of your strenght, you are well muscled so that gives you another 5 HP since there is more of you... giving you 15 HP- then you can increase your dexterity through 'training' thereby requiring 18 Hit Die to hit...

How about that

Urban Ranger · December 2, 2003, 01:53

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkCloud
I suppose someone could sort of revise the system, making there be 'area-damage' (like in Battletech) or perhaps not increasing the hitpoints but giving the player points to put into Dexterity or Strength or "Tough Hide" etc. so that they can increase their innurity to pain and ability to take more punishment, etc.

Example- instead of 5 HP and 15 Hit Die to Hit going to 50 HP and 15 Hit Die to Hit, you would have...
10 HP because you maxed out "tough hide", then because of your strenght, you are well muscled so that gives you another 5 HP since there is more of you... giving you 15 HP- then you can increase your dexterity through 'training' thereby requiring 18 Hit Die to hit...

How about that

I am not sure, you confused me B-)

In many systems, characters do get tough when they increase in experience, but only slowly. They avoid being killed mainly by being more skillful, say, becoming very good in using a shield or parrying with a weapon. That means firefights are much more deathly than melee combats, though having high skills in ranged weapons do help.

self biased · December 2, 2003, 06:52

the white wolf storytelling system is one of the best, and most versatile around.

last week we warped it to do a harry potter gampaign. i'm surprised that there isn't a harry potter roleplaying system... i think i key marketing group is being neglected.

Urban Ranger · December 2, 2003, 23:29

There's nothing special about the Harry Porter world though, nothing like the Middle Earth or similar settings. It's quite generic and drab, in fact, and can be fitted into any of the existing systems.

Discworld, on the other hand, is much more interesting.

self biased · December 3, 2003, 03:09

true enough... but the white wolf system can be applied really to anything you can come up with.

Sore Loser · December 3, 2003, 08:40

Another problem with combat is that it rarely matters how many enemies attack you at once, your defence rating is unchanged. There should be more strength in numbers. Some kind of exhaustion level could be introduced as well, making inferior enemies in large number even more of a challenge.

Urban Ranger · December 4, 2003, 00:14

In the Hero System, your characters get tired from exerting themselves, and they can certainly be worn down by large number of weaker foes.

LDiCesare · December 5, 2003, 15:49

A system like DC Heroes (superheros RPG) allowed several people to group together to increase their strength. Instead of rolling 16 attack rolls at skill 1, you could roll 8 at 2, 4 at 3, 2 at 4 or a single attack with a level of 5. This allowed to fight lots of generic grunts with very few dice rolls.
Other systems, like Rolemaster, or even more so Runequest, put emphasis on parrying. If you can't parry, it's very likely you'll be hit, and you can only parry against one opponent at a time (or get penalties to your parry skill if you parry more than once).

lord of the mark · December 8, 2003, 16:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandman

Tournaments and battlefields are special occasions. But it's silly to be able to wander the countryside wearing full plate armour. I suppose, however, that heros could be considered strong enough to wear it constantly.

well real silly to wander around wearing full plate ON FOOT. And somewhat problematic even on a battlefield, ON FOOT, for any length of time. (any SCA people here?) IIUC Full plate armor was designed to be worn by MOUNTED fighters. In BG (only RPG Ive played) there are no horses - are there in other RPG's?

General Ludd · December 8, 2003, 18:37

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark

well real silly to wander around wearing full plate ON FOOT. And somewhat problematic even on a battlefield, ON FOOT, for any length of time. (any SCA people here?) IIUC Full plate armor was designed to be worn by MOUNTED fighters. In BG (only RPG Ive played) there are no horses - are there in other RPG's?

There a mounts in pen and paper D&D (and much more then just horses.... the ostriches are my favorite

). I don't think I've ever seen a computer RPG that had mounted combat beyond simply adding a horse to the characters graphic.

Jon Miller · December 8, 2003, 22:11

does anyone here know anything about ADnD 2.5?

Jon Miller

DarkCloud · December 9, 2003, 00:12

Urban Ranger My basic suggestion was that the player could put points into dexterity or tough hide or something of that sort instead of hit points...

every player would have from 0-20 hit points based upon rolls...

and they could allocate their hitpoints into "area" locations such as Torso, Head, Arms, and Legs... If one area suffers x percent of damage, then it is disabled and cannot be used, etc.

Therefore, as they gain in levels they could increase the 'toughness' of their body realtive all over and increase the amount of hit dice that have to be rolled (up to 5... or some other small number) and therefore the battles would not be long slugfests- instead, if the enemy was strong enough- his power would negate said heroe's tough hide while still allowing the hero to somewhat have an easy time killing peasants that are unarmed... and unshileded and yet have the same hide rating.

It would be more like real life and more interesting than White Wolf/Mage's near two-shot kill interface...

Jamski · December 9, 2003, 04:17

Quote:

does anyone here know anything about ADnD 2.5?

You really mean "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2.5" ? Just checking, 'cos I'm not sure I ever saw a 2.5

or perhaps it was just an improved version of 2.0... (like 3.5 is basically the same as 3.0, just tweaked)

If you MEAN 2.5 then I assume its pretty much like 2.0, so yes I do.

What did you want to know? *leafs through sourcebooks*

-Jam

Urban Ranger · December 11, 2003, 05:48

I think he meant AD&D 3.5

Jon Miller · December 11, 2003, 07:14

no I mean ADnD 2.5

which is what I have sort of heard Baldur's Gate 2 is based on

Jon Miller

Crabz · December 11, 2003, 08:13

I don't mean to be blunt, but the whole point of DnD was to give an immense field a tight package.

AC, for example, is a collection of EVERYTHING that would reduce damage, dodge modifiers, magical modifiers, dex modifiers, depending on the game, holy, luck, size... armor in particular. Anything that would keep you from being STRUCK.

The idea behind hit points is just that, how well you take a hit - be it rolling with a blunt weapon, or opposing a blade. Fighters, for example, in DnD have a d10 hit dice, they are frontline characters. They see more tools of death than anyone else, and therefor LEARN to deal with it over time.

In addition, levels are not linear, they increase in difficulty an exponential fasion (even if difficulty is just time spent bashing goblins) so if you are whining about levels meaning less, they DO, just not in the manner you want them to. Every 1000 exp means less and less as the game progresses, at least in NWN, my rpg of choice currently.

If you want a more strategic game go play Warhammer 40k or Necromunda, the latter of which is renowned for it's realistic damage style - one gunshot often downing and permanently injuring a member of your gang.

To people who know ADnD 3.0 etc but never knew about Thac0 and such, AC evolved from thac0 which meant "To Hit Armor Class 0". As your character evolved, your THAC0 dropped, and armor class (in the positive) was added to your d20 roll and needed to remain above your thac0 to hit. I personally like the NEW system, with AC and attack bonuses. It makes the game more PERSONALIZABLE.

I prefer PnP rpgs simply because of the human element. Bending of the rules, conversation with the DM agreeing to special circumstances, and critical misses, losing your beloved equipment due to losing your arm in a hole in the wall, and losing your other arm in an attempt to retrieve the first arm (If anyone reads that comic... I can't quite recall it lol, but I wish i had my Slashmaster +12?)

Ok, I guess I'm done. EVERY system is different, and you need to keep looking until you find the one that suits you. Again, with DnD, you are allowed to ammend it to suit your needs, so long as the DM agrees prior to the game start, and the other players do aswell. If you want to play a kung-fu-esque monk who doesn't just get strong, but prones characters with throws, and submisses them with grapples, TELL YOUR DM THE FEATS. You are allowed to make your character a reality. Just make sure it's not uber - the numbers need limits, you can't suplex a dragon, for instance.

Someone was talking about powergamers, and I have to agree. I have to say though, I find I am more likely to play a 16 wisdom fighter in PnP than I am in a CRPG... in a PnP I never know the limit of my recieved equipment. It is spontaneous and limitless. Programs only go so far, and only reach certain boundaries, and I, as a perfectionist, strive to reach those boundaries. I look into the far reaches of the games toolset to find what equipment I'll equip, eg: in the NWN campaign I set 19 dex for a final dex of 44 and an AC of 48, Monk, being untouchable.

Alright, I suppose I'm done. In case anyone just skipped to the bottom of this post, I feel that PnP games will ALWAYS be superior to CRPGs, because you will only ever personalize your game in RL.

Actually, I got that Thac0 part wrong. I remember now why they changed it

Armor class started at 10, and instead of GROWING, it dropped so a negative number, which was added to your attack roll and needed to remain above YOUR thac0 for you to hit your target. This is an edit, I was proofreading and ran into this problem, I didn't want to bother making another post.

GeneralTacticus · December 11, 2003, 08:33

Quote:

(If anyone reads that comic... I can't quite recall it lol, but I wish i had my Slashmaster +12?)

Is that Knights of the Dinner Table that you're referring to? If so, I believe the sword you mentioned is the Hackmaster +12.

Crabz · December 11, 2003, 23:55

Damn you're right

I never owned a copy, but my friend had them LOL, yes, it's all coming back to me now.

This is bringing back the itch to play some pnp, if anyone knows a decent DM in the Greater Vancouver Area, plz speak now!

Jon Miller · December 12, 2003, 03:17

me and freinds will probably start playing in DC in Januarry

probably aren't looking for more people though

Jon Millwe

Urban Ranger · December 12, 2003, 05:35

AD&D is still not as good as many other systems, some of them have been around for 20+ years.

Jon Miller · December 12, 2003, 05:38

I know a little bit about the older systems

but age does not mean good

and ADnD has been arround a while also (I beleive DnD first was over 20 years ago)

Jon Miller

Jamski · December 12, 2003, 06:01

At least 20 years.

Re: AD&D 2.5. As Jon said, this is the system used for BG2, but its a made-up system based on 2, but with some stuff from 3 (like sorcerors and barbarians as classes)

-Jam

MrBaggins · December 12, 2003, 07:30

*smiles, reminicing about Rolemaster, and its absurdly detailed systems and myriad expansion books*

lord of the mark · December 12, 2003, 10:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamski
At least 20 years.

Longet - my first exposure to DnD was at a party in high school - that was

over 25 years ago. And I dont think it was brand new then.

I think it goes all the way back to the 1960's.

Interestingly, the first guys who played around with it were wargamers. Apparently someone tried designing a Napoleonic scenario for his friends (I think board, not miniatures) set in a town with factions and character interactions and all instead of conventional warfare, and they thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. The fantasy elements and the detailed rules system got added later.

So RPG's are ulimately descendants of historical wargames

Jon Miller · December 12, 2003, 10:51

I knew that

I hvae played some of the earlier ones

Jon Miller

LDiCesare · December 12, 2003, 16:25

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
*smiles, reminicing about Rolemaster, and its absurdly detailed systems and myriad expansion books*

Oh yes but I loved that game! Rolemaster Companion II: How to add a skill to slice bread. The last generation of RM is much better but they still found only one thing to do in expansions: Add skills. Sometimes, add spells too. The combat system is really good. The spell system was quite good, but a bit restrictive though for a CRPG it would be great.

MrBaggins · December 12, 2003, 17:18

Quote:

Originally posted by LDiCesare

Oh yes but I loved that game! Rolemaster Companion II: How to add a skill to slice bread.

I think you mean ICE 1165 : Toast Lore

As I recall there were so many magic using classes, and plenty of spell tables to go around.

I remember the crit tables better though. Viscious... nasty AND imaginative deaths. *laughing*

I powergamed a mythic europe (think Ars Magica) campaign with a group of buddies... ritual magic and the whole crusade bit (done with War Lore)... and it was really quite fun, if a little involving.

I spent a lot of money on that, between Rolemaster, MERP, and Spacemaster. I guess like 80 books worth. Sitting in a loft in my parents house...

/me chuckles

The Mad Monk · December 12, 2003, 18:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
AD&D is still not as good as many other systems, some of them have been around for 20+ years.

Yeah, but we don't care.

Crabz · December 12, 2003, 19:04

After world war I(?) wargames were huge, my grampa said they had tank strategy warfare board games and stuff. It seems pretty cool.

Has anyone here ever played the turn-based combat games with models? warhammer 40k, necro, epic, man'o'war? I know there are more than just citadel, but I can't think of them >.<

Jamski · December 12, 2003, 19:58

Yeah I spent a fortune on those figures. Then they revised the rules, half the old figures were disallowed, and the new ones cost sooooooo much. Games Workshop are dirty little money grabbers.

-Jam