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Old December 4, 2003, 20:52   #91
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Ned: Cool!

I believe the two party system to be flawed. Even compared to the British parliament, I find it rather tame, and the British parliament, minus the lib dems, is disturbing close to each other (labour and conservatives).

I assure you it gets debated far less than it does here, and OT is testiment to that .
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Old December 4, 2003, 20:54   #92
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Whaleboy, if your point is that patriotism can be abused, I have no disagreement. But if your point is that patriotism is always abused in the manner of Nazi Germany, then I strongly disagree.
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Old December 4, 2003, 20:57   #93
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As strongly as Nazi Germany? Then no. The same devices, used in the same way? Always has, is, and hopefully wont be in the future, but of that I have little hope .
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Old December 4, 2003, 20:58   #94
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Whaleboy, there is no question that I exceedingly admire the debate you have in Parliament. I often tune in and just listen in amazement.
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:00   #95
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You should see my sociology classes! Our topic is "national identity". I'm in a class with horny bisexual, liberal girls, and townies who wear England football shirts and drink Carling. LET THE TABLES FLY!! jk
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:01   #96
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Quote:
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Droque, just one more small point. We do not have "blind patriotism" here in the the US with such a vigorous two party system. Everything gets "debated," even strategy on the war on terror.
That is true. However Sept 11th gave a lot of leeway when it came to a way to deal with it, that many people wouldn't be taken seriously if they didn't want revenge. It would have been political suicide for a Dem to speak out against the WoT. Sure they can disagree with the details, but saying that the war on terror is bad would have lost credibility and votes. That shows that public opinion was so much for the war on terror, that I would consider it blind patriotism. Not in Bush, but in the belief that America has been wronged and needs revenge.

I saw Prime Ministers Question time the other day, during the Bush visit. Basically, anyone who didn't start their question praising the relationship with America was branded as taking cheap shots at the expense of the country, after Blair said "I am for strong ties, as anyone who has the best interests of the nation is" when questioned about whether he would bring up the steel tariffs and WTO ruling with Bush. This was remarked by a commentator (a member of the house of lords actually) as being unhealthy for debate. I don't doubt this could well be worse in the USA. If public opinion is one way, everyone must follow it, or lose votes, and thus the scope of debate is minimal. It's not that blind patriotism is the government pushes the people where it doesn't want to go, but that the emotional side of the people is harnessed and pushes the government in an emotional direction, which hinders rational debating on the issue. Hence the people's desire for revenge, not an impartial observers wish for justice.
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:01   #97
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Whaleboy, in the final analysis, it looks like you and I agree. Patriotism can be abused. But so long as there is a opportunity for vigorous debate, the opportunity for abuse is limited.
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:03   #98
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Indeed, unfortunately though in any parliament I can think of, an "anti-patriot" such as myself would be somewhat oxymoronic. I commend you on your recognition of the power of the debate though. It is not a sport, but a comparison of views. And its all good!
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:03   #99
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Drogue, maybe the debate that day was limited as a matter of good manners and respect for the Queen if not for Bush.
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:04   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Whaleboy, there is no question that I exceedingly admire the debate you have in Parliament. I often tune in and just listen in amazement.
Last time I saw it, the Chief Whip got scorned for abuse by the leader of the house I love the fact that you put a few hundred men (and a few women) in a room, and ask them to run a country, and even they resort to acting like little children. Conforting to know I love the debate, but surely the heckling isn't a good idea? Add the baiting done by the opposition, and the planted questions from Labour's side It could be a lot better.
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:05   #101
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Whaleboy, why do you think I like Apolyton so much?
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:05   #102
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All proof that the UK should be run from Northampton College
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:09   #103
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Ned: The cool smilies?
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:13   #104
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All proof that the UK should be run from Northampton College
No, the UK should be run from my bedroom. Without me knowing it
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:17   #105
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I could make comments about what has gone on in your bedroom, but I probably shouldn't .
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:27   #106
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No, you shouldn't.

/me glares at Whaleboy.
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:28   #107
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:30   #108
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That sucks
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:32   #109
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Defanged on demand
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Old December 4, 2003, 21:43   #110
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**** **** **** **** Opps

And no, I didn't know
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Old December 4, 2003, 23:28   #111
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Quote:
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Master Zen, I would only hope you would tone down your remarks on Israel and not make it appear that you lust for its destruction.
Nowhere near as much as I lust for you getting a spec of common sense
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Old December 4, 2003, 23:34   #112
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Hey, Master Z, we had a good discussion a few weeks ago on helping the poor in your country. If we set demagoguery aside for a few moments, we can listen to each other. That's all I ask.
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Old December 4, 2003, 23:34   #113
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... Master Zen, a reply, please?
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Old December 4, 2003, 23:37   #114
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That is true. However Sept 11th gave a lot of leeway when it came to a way to deal with it, that many people wouldn't be taken seriously if they didn't want revenge. It would have been political suicide for a Dem to speak out against the WoT. Sure they can disagree with the details, but saying that the war on terror is bad would have lost credibility and votes. That shows that public opinion was so much for the war on terror, that I would consider it blind patriotism. Not in Bush, but in the belief that America has been wronged and needs revenge.
Wait... the fact that there was overwhelming support for something means it was blind patriotism? Isn't it possible that an answer to the problem was so obvious that everyone simply came to the same conclusion? (note: I'm not saying this is true, just pointing out the flaw in your arguement ) This seems equivalent to saying that since everyone agrees 1 + 1 = 2, it is blind support.
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Old December 5, 2003, 01:03   #115
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1+1=2.

So hard for so many.
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Old December 5, 2003, 02:12   #116
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by popular demand:

Quote:
Originally posted by Zevico
Master Zen: I disagree with your contention that Palestinians hate Israelis purely because of the 'occupation'. An extremely large factor in Palestinian hatred of Jews is the fact that much of it is indoctrinated into Palestinians at a young age while they attend schools and kindergartens. This is true, unfortunately, in most (I hope not all) of the Arab world. Without this factor, the suicide bombings that are occurring today simply would not happen, because people would not be able to accept the killing of oneself, let alone of innocents.
and you ever thought WHY they are being taught that? How many decades were US schoolchildren tought that "Manifest Destiny" was a good thing, and British being taught it was their god given right to impose thei rule upon the savages?

One this is a bunch of loonies doing crazy things, the other is when an entire nation supports them, and those reasons are deeper than just being "brainwashed".

Quote:
Your statement that Israeli soldiers kill children or civilians in order to save their own casualties is one that would require much documented proof and examination.

Your other statement that demolishing houses encourages terrorism is doubtful, because anyone who is willing to kill himself in such a fashion would do so anyway, without such an excuse.
Give me a break, a terrorist doesn't blow himself up just because a house was demolished, its the plethora of ACTS of destruction going around in Gaza and the West Bank which fuels the hatred of these people to blow themselves up.

Furthermore, you ASSUME that a terrorist would kill himself regarless of the external provocations that might well drive him to do it, whereas should these provocations be non-existant he might as well not be so willing.

But doubt all you can, any fool can see how terrorism in and around Israel vastly increases whenever the Israeli army is engaged in major operations like that. If you don't choose to see that relationship, so be it.
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Old December 5, 2003, 02:16   #117
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Quote:
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Hey, Master Z, we had a good discussion a few weeks ago on helping the poor in your country. If we set demagoguery aside for a few moments, we can listen to each other. That's all I ask.
Calling people racist and anti-semitic just because their position is sympathetic to the arab cause is hardly the step towards a good discussion, and I'm not the first person in this thread you have made such boneheaded remarks to.
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Old December 5, 2003, 09:42   #118
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@PLATO

Sky: Part of the reason for that support is because of blind patriotism, not the other way round. This isn't something agaisnt Americans, it is a failing of all of mankind. It just so happens that at this time, it is Americans, Chinese and increasingly the British that are becoming more afflicted by that, which is encouraged by leaders who are becoming too totalitarian for my taste .
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Old December 5, 2003, 09:43   #119
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Old December 5, 2003, 18:25   #120
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[/quote]
and you ever thought WHY they are being taught that? How many decades were US schoolchildren tought that "Manifest Destiny" was a good thing, and British being taught it was their god given right to impose thei rule upon the savages?

One this is a bunch of loonies doing crazy things, the other is when an entire nation supports them, and those reasons are deeper than just being "brainwashed".[/quote]
Master Zen, your two examples are both out of context, because neither called upon children to look forward to killing other people (and themselves). One might argue that this is irrelevant and that the effect will be the same, yet in a child's mind-which is what matters here- killing would probably be far removed from this propagandised notion of ruling over "the savages". Therefore once the child realises what ruling over "the savages" is-that is, it may involve killing some of them if they rebel or etc--he may realise the contradiction between the two things. I would also like to remind you that the British army did not have a policy of killing all of the savages, either. (I am assuming what you say is true-I do not know of its accuracy)
As for Americans, I have no idea what Manifest Destiny. But I think that once more, the same argument I proposed in the previous paragraph applies here in an analogous manner.
AS to your last argument quoted, I think history shows differently.

[quote]Give me a break, a terrorist doesn't blow himself up just because a house was demolished, its the plethora of ACTS of destruction going around in Gaza and the West Bank which fuels the hatred of these people to blow themselves up.
(the last part of your statement I will respond to later)
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