"Civilization IV"... Confirmed?

[DrGerry]

Thanks

[DrGerry]

I've just seen the ppt.... I'm too scared now

Modern interface/help conventions
Continuous, immersive 3D world (what-you-see-is-what-you-get)
Drop unfun legacy (pollution, rioting, maintenance, corruption/waste)
New killer features (religion, civics)
RPG elements (unit upgrades/experience)
Coding from scratch (multiplayer, mod-friendly)
Can still take over the world!

"Simplify, simplify, simplify"

What the hell, it's all about marketing. What I seen is "thanks for your wishes, but we go to make what the marketing department say"

I'm "severely afraid" about civ4. I don't give a damn about 3D. It likes good?, OK, but I want a better game

[Nikolai]

For me that list confirms my hope that this might be a really good game that moves on and not just stands still, disappointing both new and old players.

[Heresson]

don't give a damn about 3D. It likes good?, OK, but I want a better game

I don't want 3D.
It'd be harder to make scns.

[Nikolai]

We don't even know for sure how a 3D cIV will be...

[Vesuvius]

14:59 "We are in development on Civ IV", Firaxis has informed us this afternoon, confirming recent reports hinting at the existence of the new sequel in the hit strategy-sim series.
Earlier this week, a listing for the game appeared on Atari.com. Just as quickly, the listing was removed, but not before it had been noticed by eagle-eyed reporters.

No doubt like us you're probably not sitting in front of your monitor screen with a huge look of shock plastered across your faces. A new Civilization game? Really? Does the sun rise in the morning?

Still, it's nice to get the official word straight from the horse's mouth as it were. Although Firaxis was unable to speak further about Civ IV at this time, it did say it would "start talking more about the game after the first of the year."

Keep your eyes peeled for the first wave of Civ IV goodness, at the start of 2005.


http://www.computerandvideogames.com...news_story.php(que)id=110983

[DrGerry]

I don't say I dislike 3D. Surely is good. Very good.

What I dislike is "Simplify, simplify, simplify", or those that marketing-like expressions, whe we are making hundreds of lists with thousands of ideas for a better game, what I say, THE BEST strategic game ever. That is what I dislike.

I'm afraid Civ4 will be the death of the Civilization saga....

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Gerar Dean
I'm afraid Civ4 will be the death of the Civilization saga....

Bold statement considering we know next to nothing for sure about the game. Some 3D sounds okay to me as long as it doesn't jack up the system requirements too much.

[Jon Shafer]

Gerar Dean:

Do you think the superior solution is to try and impliment every idea on every list?

I see simplification in some areas (pollution, rioting, etc.) allowing expansion into new and more interesting things like civics, religion and who knows what else.

The only thing I've seen listed which suggests "simplify!" is that single line mentioning the removal of pollution, rioting and corruption. Do you consider the addition of civics and religion to be simplification? MP and powerful modding ability from the starting-gate to be an attempt to dumb down the game.

It seems to me that what they're trying to do is eliminate the things that they don't find fun an expand in every area they can while keeping the core game the same and fun to play. Maybe that's just my impression though.

[ThePlagueRat]

Originally posted by Gerar Dean

I'm afraid Civ4 will be the death of the Civilization saga....

Ok, that's what I've been thinking too.
What it really depends on here is are three things:

1) Who is in charge of development?
2) Do they use programmers or monkeys?
2) Are they listening to the civ-community at all?

If the answers are 1) those who were in charge of civ2 and 2) good old SMAC-programmers 3) yes, listening very carefully... then we have nothing to fear!

Otherwise we should not anticipate a working game at all, and I wont buy it. Their record says they used more than a year after civ3 release to make it work right and it took two expansion packs and numerous patches before it was a complete game... They bled us dry those capitalist swines. So we should not expect anything better this time.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
Ok, that's what I've been thinking too.
What it really depends on here is are three things:

1) Who is in charge of development?
2) Do they use programmers or monkeys?
2) Are they listening to the civ-community at all?

If the answers are 1) those who were in charge of civ2 and 2) good old SMAC-programmers 3) yes, listening very carefully... then we have nothing to fear!

Otherwise we should not anticipate a working game at all, and I wont buy it. Their record says they used more than a year after civ3 release to make it work right and it took two expansion packs and numerous patches before it was a complete game... They bled us dry those capitalist swines. So we should not expect anything better this time.

The reason Civ 3 had so many problems being "completed" was not because Firaxis is full of money-grubbing capitalists. Civ 3 was based off of SMAC code, which was based off of Civ 2 code, which was based off of... so in other words, they were already working with an old code base that was derived from something else. Early prototypes were very similar to SMAC and even now there are still code remnants which bear SMAC origins. So the development was plagued with that from the beginning. It's hard to make new additions to a game that was designed for space colonization and combat. It's like being a movie director and handed a script with the boss saying "you MUST use this script, now make a great movie!" and trying to make that great movie. Good luck.

Secondly, a year into development your wonderful "Civ 2 developers" and "SMAC programmers" left the company high and dry. Firaxis had to hire a completely new team in order to salvage the project in order to even make sure it could be released at all, let alone if it would work. I don't know how much you know about the software development process, but having almost 100% turnover in your dev team is a catastrophic blow to a project. Most of the time this sort of thing will result in a project being scrapped. Instead Firaxis pulled through and released the game, a little more battered than was planned and not quite as complete or polished. Those people you admire so much for Civ 2 and SMAC are basically the reason Civ 3 ended up like it did - think long and hard about that before criticizing Firaxis any further.

To do 2 years of work to add MP and further round out the game for free would not be an option (working 2 years for free isn't going to keep the lights on) so they turned to expansion packs so they could pay the bills.

Civ 4 will not be ailing from any of those problems - it will be programmed from scratch and not based on any other old code. There will be nobody important (presumably ) leaving the team in mid-development. There was already working MP back in, what, February, and plans of allowing (and by now I'm sure quite a bit of real development into) powerful and sweeping modding. Thus real programmers in the mod community can make all those crazy wacky changes that people around here would want without Firaxis having to compromise the core gameplay.

In other words, I would wait and see what Firaxis has in store this round before proclaiming it a dud, especially with over a year left in development and no REAL news on the project announced. Those snippets from Soren came 1.5+ years out from release - often times that's the entire DEVELOPMENT LIFESPAN for games! A lot can change, and I'm sure there's plenty going on behind the scenes that nobody here can imagine.

[ThePlagueRat]

Hi Trip. Long time no see... I wrote an article about you when you got elected president in C3DG first time. It's kinda fun... I send you in PM, you won't be disappointed, I promise!

Originally posted by Trip
so in other words, they were already working with an old code base that was derived from something else. Early prototypes were very similar to SMAC and even now there are still code remnants which bear SMAC origins.

The reason I mentioned Civ2 and SMAC is that they were errorfree games and some of the greatest games ever, and that something got lost in Civ3 and it could not measure up with its predecessors, so then I focus on the result, not the process of development. But the process is also interesting. (which you are probably right about) Ok, code reuse is normal work for programmers, reuse of code can be a good thing for those who work with code, if they are able to read the code and if its written in a way that is highly modular or object oriented it's easier to do that. If you try to do it out of somebody elses spaghetticode without their assistance it may soon end up in a mess. There is a trick there too called wrapper classes, a kind of modularization. I know about programming because it's something I do, but how do you know so much details about the SMAC code, I thought it was classified material? Are you working for them?

Originally posted by Trip
I don't know how much you know about the software development process, but having almost 100% turnover in your dev team is a catastrophic blow to a project.

I know, it's very critical when that happens. It's a worst case scenario in project planning. I've been working on a software project as programmer on the university. And the organisation was horrible, and suddenly I found myself with unreadable code and the authors not available. Then you have to reverse-engineer it. It no fun at all, so I must critisize my "Civ2 and SMAC heros" for that as well. They are not godlike to me at all, but I'd prefer they were put back to work because they are responsible for some of the greatest games ever so they know how to do the job right.


The only godlike developer I know of is Johan at Paradox who were lead programmer of Europa Universalis and the successor games, a perfectionist, he is so dedicated he works on patches during friday night so it will be ready for us saturday morning and he posts weekly screenshots on the game he is working on at the moment. Hearts of Iron 2 btw. In which we now can see that he has been listening pretty much to the suggestions from that community. Now that is a dude I really respect! No extra costs for us either. One game... you go buy it and you get what you paid for and even more. We can all hope that will be the case with civ4, but I have my doubts!

Originally posted by Trip
Thus real programmers in the mod community can make all those crazy wacky changes that people around here would want without Firaxis having to compromise the core gameplay.

I agree on that. If the developer makes the game highly moddable, it would be no problem. As I say, it all depends on whos gonna do the job. You seem to have some inside information, so can you tell us anything about that?

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
Hi Trip. Long time no see... I wrote an article about you when you got elected president in C3DG first time. It's kinda fun... I send you in PM, you won't be disappointed, I promise!

Always good to see some friendly and familiar faces around. I'm on to bigger and better things than the C3DG Presidency these days though, for better and for worse.

The reason I mentioned Civ2 and SMAC is that they were errorfree games and some of the greatest games ever, and that something got lost in Civ3 and it could not measure up with its predecessors, so then I focus on the result, not the process of development. But the process is also interesting. (which you are probably right about) Ok, code reuse is normal work for programmers, reuse of code can be a good thing for those who work with code, if they are able to read the code and if its written in a way that is highly modular or object oriented it's easier to do that. If you try to do it out of somebody elses spaghetticode without their assistance it may soon end up in a mess. There is a trick there too called wrapper classes, a kind of modularization. I know about programming because it's something I do, but how do you know so much details about the SMAC code, I thought it was classified material? Are you working for them?

I agree that the finished products for Civ 2 and SMAC were quite a bit more polished than Civ 3, but I think I've explained pretty well why that ended up being so. Yes, code reuse is quite common, but you're opening up a new can of worms when you're drawing on stuff that's 8 years old, written by multiple generations of programmers including the final group which clearly knew they were going to be leaving the company as they were working on the game. How hard do you think people work when they know they're going to quit tomorrow or next week?

As far as my relation to Firaxis, well, I'll leave that as a topic for another day.

I know, it's very critical when that happens. It's a worst case scenario in project planning. I've been working on a software project as programmer on the university. And the organisation was horrible, and suddenly I found myself with unreadable code and the authors not available. Then you have to reverse-engineer it. It no fun at all, so I must critisize my "Civ2 and SMAC heros" for that as well. They are not godlike to me at all, but I'd prefer they were put back to work because they are responsible for some of the greatest games ever so they know how to do the job right.

Well, when they left they started a new company under Brian Reynolds called Big Huge Games. Their first project was Rise of Nations (essentially Civ in a RTS environment), so if you haven't played that game you might want to check it out. Even so, I have faith in the new generation of Firaxians working on Civ 4. But everyone has their opinions.

The only godlike developer I know of is Johan at Paradox who were lead programmer of Europa Universalis and the successor games, a perfectionist, he is so dedicated he works on patches during friday night so it will be ready for us saturday morning and he posts weekly screenshots on the game he is working on at the moment. Hearts of Iron 2 btw. In which we now can see that he has been listening pretty much to the suggestions from that community. Now that is a dude I really respect! No extra costs for us either. One game... you go buy it and you get what you paid for and even more. We can all hope that will be the case with civ4, but I have my doubts!

Yes, I am quite familiar with Johan and his work ethic, I worked with him and some other guys for quite a while on HOI 1. It was a good game, the AI wasn't tough enough to put up a good fight against me though. My favorite MP gaming moments were while playing it though.

As far as Firaxis and how they stack up with Johan/Paradox, I'm not sure how much Soren or Jesse would appreciate me saying this out here, but I'll go ahead and do so anyways because their efforts and the efforts of others at Firaxis deserve to be recognized more than a list in a manual. I would say that the contribution of those who are currently working on Civ 4 is equal to if not greater (if that's possible, no offense Johan ) than what Paradox does. I won't go into details, but work late into the evenings and on the weekends is something that team is quite familiar with. They live to make games and they live to make the best games they can. Which is another reason why I have so much faith in their ability to produce a masterpiece. Their dedication goes far beyond 9 to 5 and what they get in the mail once a month.

There is quite a contrast between Paradox and Firaxis though. Paradox is very much a smaller niche company, whereas Firaxis caters more to the mainstream, whether the Civ fans here like that or not - that's just the way it is. So expecting things like an econ engine ala Paradox's Victoria is a bit farfetched, but whose to say that Civ 4 won't be a fun game anyways? All of the past Civ games didn't include such things as this and yet they still attract more and more fans to this site and across the world.

Firaxis is definitely not ignoring the already-existing community though, as their committment to modding clearly proves. The vast majority of casual Civ gamers will never go to a site like this, and most never even download a single patch. All mod work generally stays in the relatively small online communities. Civ 3 sold over 3 million copies, and yet between Apolyton and CFC, the largest 2 Civ sites, there are probably only about 20,000 Civ 3 members, maybe 4,000 of which are constantly active. That's only 0.13% ever even have access to the stuf that goes on here! Mods will not reach an audience much larger than that, even if they're very professional and popular. That's just the nature of the gaming business when you're mainstream.

I agree on that. If the developer makes the game highly moddable, it would be no problem. As I say, it all depends on whos gonna do the job. You seem to have some inside information, so can you tell us anything about that?

What I will say is this: plans have been announced to allow the integrated use of the Python programming language as well as XML to allow powerful and flexible modding capabilities, with exposed functions allowing modder customization of map generation, combat, triggers/events, AI and more. Anyone who is attentive will notice that this is exactly what Soren said during GDC. So sorry, but no new info.

Long ways until Civ 4 is released, but well worth it. My 2 cents.

[ThePlagueRat]

Originally posted by Trip
As far as my relation to Firaxis, well, I'll leave that as a topic for another day.

Wow, ok I'll see you around... You just have to tell one day!
I have not been around here for several months so there is a lot of new stuff to digest. And you've been working with Johan on HOI you say, now that's really awesome! Makes you almost like a pope, or at least an archbishop... you must tell me what you did. Are you betatesting the HOI2 then?


btw: If you really know the new firaxians and you have faith in them making civ4 I think maybe we should trust you on that one. Even though I will forever be sceptical to things I do not know.

[Jon Shafer]

Haha, I'm not really as important as I fear I'm making it sound.

I did a lot of stuff with the HOI AI mainly, though I did some other work as well. If you see some of the AI files a lot of them will say "By Trip" or somesuch near the top. No, I'm not a HOI2 beta, I'm afraid that I've been too busy to do anything with that project, though it appears to be shaping up nicely.

Feel free to be skeptical, I would too if it were me telling me all this... that is, if I weren't me, of course. All I hope is that people give it a fair chance before calling it trash or expecting a dud. There are a lot of people working very hard on it, not for money or for fame but just to make a great game which people enjoy playing. I'm sure they'd be very happy too if people would let their finished work speak for them when d-day comes.

[DrGerry]

OK. Of course, I will give Civ4 one opportunity (or two ).

I thnik C3C, even when add some goods to the game, is not better than PtW (IMHO). So, when I saw the ppt, and it makes me live my advertising times again, I feel a little scared.

I like 3D, of course. But I like Civ as an strategy game more than 3D. I understand, the graphics are what sell for now, but if the 3D is the only good to add to Civ3, well, I don't see the reason to buy Civ4.

And if Civ4 becames a less strategy game than Civ3. If it becames a "simpler" game, well, maybe I continue playing old games

[ThePlagueRat]

Ok, if they add 3D it won't enhance the game system in any particular way, a 3D battleview only would be a nice litte enhancement, even an enhancement over CTP. But if it's complex 3D fancy pancy stuff with lighting, lots of objects being rendered, shades, and loads of kiddo stuff flashing around it could mean a problem and cause "buggy" gameplay and crappy design. On the other hand 3D effects can be used the same way as in certain RTS games, where panning, rotating, scaling and such simple 3D routines are supported. If it's just a simple 3D map it's no problem...

[MrFun]

I do NOT like the idea of implementing 3D aspects into Civilization IV.

[The Templar]

Change is good. I've been tired of Civ 2 since 1998. I am currently tired of Civ 3 (I've been playing Victoria). So yes, give me something new.

Glad to see Soren is on the case. The Sid is dead, long live the Soren!

Oh, and someone tell Soren that the whole workers system is unfun legacy, please.

[Lambiorix_be]

Originally posted by The Templar
Change is good. I've been tired of Civ 2 since 1998. I am currently tired of Civ 3 (I've been playing Victoria). So yes, give me something new.

I'm starting to have the same feeling. Still playing civ3 but longing for something new....

I also agree that the current worker system is not 'optimal'... (I will not restart the debate since it has been discussed already many times )

[DrGerry]

I'm a little tired too. But what's the meaning of "something new"?

Something new can be Wolfenstein or Hearts of Iron . Or maybe Civ4 like the Atari version of Rise of Nations.

I want something new, but still civ. 3D? OK. Better graphics? OK. But Civ RTS NO!.

[Jon Shafer]

Soren has announced at CFC that CIV will still be turn-based and tile-based, so you don't have to worry about it becoming an RTS game.

[ThePlagueRat]

Originally posted by Trip
Soren has announced at CFC that CIV will still be turn-based and tile-based, so you don't have to worry about it becoming an RTS game.

I would have assumed that, but it's good to hear anyway...
An RTS would have entirely broken with the civ-concept.

Oh, and now it's time for you to tell about your connections with Paradox and with Firaxis. What you do for them? I have been waiting some days now...

[Jon Shafer]

Haha, sorry, maybe in a few months.

[ThePlagueRat]

Why, is it such a big secret?

[Jon Shafer]

No need to get upset...

I was just a Conquests and a HOI beta, so I was for quite a bit of time working alongside them. I also saw first-hand how hard each of the groups work to make the best games they can, and hold tremendous respect for both of them.

[ThePlagueRat]

Heh, you were just looking at my avatar and you thought I was upset.
That's understandable. Ok, I'm not upset... just very curious. How do you become a beta then?

You see, I applied to HOI2 but there were so many applicants so they had to pick just a few new ones and use most of the old betas, and I was not so lucky I guess. What did you do to make it in ?

[FrostyBoy]

He got REALLY REALLY annoying, so they were forced to allow him in the beta team.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
I would have assumed that, but it's good to hear anyway...
An RTS would have entirely broken with the civ-concept.

Actually, Civ1 was originally supposed to be an RTS game IIRC that idea was abandoned because the AI couldn't keep up (not that it was much better in TBS )

(Yes, I'm glad CIV will be TBS as well)

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
Heh, you were just looking at my avatar and you thought I was upset.
That's understandable. Ok, I'm not upset... just very curious. How do you become a beta then?

You see, I applied to HOI2 but there were so many applicants so they had to pick just a few new ones and use most of the old betas, and I was not so lucky I guess. What did you do to make it in ?

Mostly because of my mod work. I created an AI mod called "Tripped Out" back when Bolt was around (man that was a long time ago!). Back before CORE and Stoney Road and all those mods, there was the Bolted Mod and Tripped Out. Because I worked so hard on that and did a good job I was invited on to the beta program. I got too busy so I didn't apply for HOI2.

Originally posted by Sn00py
He got REALLY REALLY annoying, so they were forced to allow him in the beta team.

What can I say, I'm a spoiled brat.