"Civilization IV"... Confirmed?

[notyoueither]

Actually, I think the only cheat is that the AI knows the whole map, fog or no. That is the only cheat that Soren had to give to it to make it able to give the human a game. Unfortunately, it turned into a weakness and a player can lure AI units first towards one open city then back towards another, all the while gaining time to gather forces or to pick off invasion stacks.

They do not gang bang the human simply because he or she is the odd biological unit out. They do not get any other advantages except those controlled by the player who starts the game in the form of the handicap which can go for the human or the AI depending on difficulty level.

As far as I know, there are very few games that give the AI no 'boosts'. A remarkable one was Warlords, where the AI got nothing the human did not.

I was hoping Toby would elaborate more on the cheating on technology and any other cheats he might have detected that nobody else here on Poly or elsewhere had found.

[Toby Rowe]

Hi Notyoueither/Joseph,

Funny how I think of annoyances and cheats during the game, but find it difficult to list them later online.

If you want I'll start to write down each AI cheat whilst playing, but it seems most are aware of them except new players to Civ 3 (buy Civ 2 you lads and lassies!!- It cheats at a bearable level )

Perhaps a simple list of all known cheats posted as a sticky by the board owners would be good- I can then make notes whilst playing, and add if I see a glaring ommission.

I too noticed the inability of the AI to see the FoW, hence my simple dictate to never ever give my territory map away in the earliest stages, as give it to one, gives it to all 16, and not least as you will end up with a patchwork quilt of a map for the last settled area's, if not more of the map, quite apart from revealing your nations weakly defended cities (most at that point).

(I agree about the method of cheating [Joseph] states the AI uses on this clearly)

My summary of Civ 3 would be thus:

"The programmers of Civ 3 looked at all the AI cheats in Civ 2, then removed all notifications given to the player that it was doing so. They then thought of as many AI cheats as they could that weren't so obvious and coded them in, thus producing a shortened development cycle, alas they were obvious, although some are more subtle than others, but the entire game is based upon cheating, not a decent AI"

Once I get the AI rush on a city- if I have railways I simply reload and bung another two regiments into the city- result, no rush or a different outcome, my counter to the game is to cheat as much as the AI does, the result is a far less satisfying game than it should have been. The AI in Civ 2 was far better than Civ 3, especially viewing both release years.

Us all talking about useful features introduced in Civ 2 but binned in Civ 3 should alone be enough to annoy any Civ player, and convince me Civ 3 was about making money for a company, not getting a satisfied, loyal customer base.

Toby!!

[notyoueither]

There is no list, because there are no cheats other than the map knowledge.

About that, they don't have to explore to know what is there. The blanket and FoW do not exist for them. That is the only cheat.

I would say it is those who are new to the game, or the forums at least, who don't know this.

[Toby Rowe]

Mate,

I beg to differ.

You can see the AI exploring, getting the map of your territory speeds up the process of all the nations exploration as it is instantly given by the recipitent to all others, as the AI demands.

I am always reluctant to give away the locations of any other nations I've encountered for exactly the same reason, the cash offer is tempting, the result is not.

I suggest you start a nation in the editor, give them 10 scouts. follow any warriors you meet, choose the above option or the "give all" info option and see if they follow a logical pattern of exploration YOU would take thereafter, reloading after a set number of turns- it's easy to do.

Despite what you claim, the AI seems not to know the lay of the land until the very first time YOU give your map away, yet the FoW areas unknown by all (including your portion) still seem to remain unknown by all, hence the jostling I witnessed for the last bit of unsettled land just North of my nation in my current game. (no less than 9 of 12 had a spearman and settler trying to reach the two remaining spots).

By tedious but skillful joggling I managed to block all, considering the AI instantly grants territorial access to any AI nation that requests it- except you of course. (another AI cheat).

If you think there isn't a need for that post, I suggest you actually play the game again rather than sniping at the side-lines, however, I don't think there is a huge need for it either- I'm so pissed off with this version, I'm really looking forward to Civ 4, minus cheating, except for cheats that must happen to make the AI work lest they seek to create an ESA/NASA robot in a game, in which case they will be the first.

Finally, stop your arrogant attittude towards new players, as I explained in a previous post I was probably playing the game whilst restoring houses your nappies were being changed in, once built.

I've played Civ and Civ 2 endlessly, now Civ 3. I'm annoyed with Civ 3 as I've never seen AI cheating taken to such a level before, I expected less cheating in Civ 3 as that was the logical step for the developer to look at, instead they increased cheating, increased pollution and increased corruption- basically anything to make your experience of a game a frustration, rather than a challenging pleasure.

If I didn't know better, I would have sworn it was made by a German developer, who collectively went from producing the best to the worst strategy games in the world, due to fondness of creating an AI that was hard to beat and forgetting we want fun as well, still, German strategy games have an average AI well above Civ 3, the games are generally boring though.


Toby

[notyoueither]

Toby, son, grab a grip.

You say that only new players would be unaware of the cheats. I say that I think only new players would think they are there. Now you are old enough to have seen me in nappies. Who here has the arrogance? If your profile is accurate, you have a bit of pooh on your face ATM.

I am still waiting for the list of cheats other than the map. and puzzeling over this:

really looking forward to Civ 4, minus cheating, except for cheats that must happen to make the AI work lest they seek to create an ESA/NASA robot in a game, in which case they will be the first.

So which is it? Cheats are good for the game, or not?

[Maquiladora]

Doesnt the AI know the future locations of resources too? Or did they ever fix that?

[Toby Rowe]

"Wishyouweren'there"

Dunno mate what your age is, but you seem to have a penchant for a argument with me.

I'm 42, I dislike people people making posts who have the arrogance to call a human a "newbie".

5 stars or none beside your name, it is the quality of a post that matters, UNLESS it is a new poster, in which case, asking ANYTHING about a game is fine, however stupid it may seem to you.

I dislike arrogantant posters, we are all equal at the end of of the day, and if I've played a game for 10 years or 10 hours it matters little if I think I can help. whether or not my help actually did help doesn't matter, at least I tried to help, unlike you.

Toby

Swift edit, in order to produce an ESA/NASA level of AI, all current games would make all redundant, that is why some work on games and some work at ESA and NASA.
The way gaming is going there will soon be no SP games at all, as programming an environ for MP requires little AI input, whilst SP does, along with a thinking AI.

Just had a chuckle when I noticed we both subscribed to this board at about the same time, also noticed I went from a "prince" back to a "warlord", seems this Greek board is with you on the value of "stars" and the attitude you feel you can have towards others.

I will always try to help- will you?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Toby Rowe
"Wishyouweren'there"

Dunno mate what your age is, but you seem to have a penchant for a argument with me.

I'm 42, I dislike people people making posts who have the arrogance to call a human a "newbie".

Then why did you do it?

5 stars or none beside your name, it is the quality of a post that matters, UNLESS it is a new poster, in which case, asking ANYTHING about a game is fine, however stupid it may seem to you.

I dislike arrogantant posters, we are all equal at the end of of the day, and if I've played a game for 10 years or 10 hours it matters little if I think I can help. whether or not my help actually did help doesn't matter, at least I tried to help, unlike you.

Actually, I am trying to have a discussion that may help all readers come to an understanding of how Civ3 works.

You don't seem to like it.

Swift edit, in order to produce an ENA/NASA level of AI all current games would make all redundant, that is why some work on games and some work at ESA and NASA.
The way gaming is going there will soon be no SP games at all, as programming an environ for MP requires little AI input, whilst SP does, along with a thinking AI.

Well, considering a person well suited to programing AI is the head of development for CIV, I wouldn't worry about that too soon.

Now, do you have a list of AI cheats, or no?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Doesnt the AI know the future locations of resources too? Or did they ever fix that?

That's part of the map. I doubt it was fixed since knowledge of the map was the one advantage given the AI.

Hense the 'AI settled a useless tundra tile... oops, there's oil there!'

Which turned into, 'I know there has to be something there if the AI was determined to settle a useless area. Let's take it.'

IOW, the advantages of the AI came to become advantages for the human who was patient enough to learn.

[Toby Rowe]

Hi "mate",

Replying in order:


Are you trying to say that you are the head programmer of Civ 4 or what?

If not, your post has the relevant points I replied to in the above post, if you are, it's the same.

Post:

A "Newbie" What does this word mean to you?

You have nothing to help seasoned players like me or new players, except how to make a condesending post.

If I asked you how best to react to a mass invasion you'd likely be arrogant, not helpful- some people want to help others, as it's in their nature, others are idiots and gloat. I'd advise based on experience playing the game, which was when you were in nappies based upon your attitude.

I'd now like to see the "discussion" you proport to already have.

I was right- you did want an arguement, to continue PM me and we can argue alone and spare the rest of the board- I thought your dissection of my post pathetic.

Toby

[notyoueither]

I could help you understand what is going on in Civ3, if you just listened. Better yet, head over to the Strat forum. You can get a lot of help there, but they too would be very interested in the list of cheats that you seem slow to produce.

[Toby Rowe]

Resources:

That flummoxed me as well- the Saltpeter would dry up (pardon the pun) but Saltpeter is actually from human pee (piss), and my Government used to enforce it's collection from us common people (working class) in the UK by law- by threat of death, and the collectors had the same rights as a modern policeman to enter your home in order to collect your pee if you claimed to have none)- Like a permanent 24 hour warrant, but to comply, you left it outside the door and the bloke collected it in the night.

The constant changing of a resources is actually a real headache in Civ 3- rubber is the worst culprit, you take the key city containing it, one or two turns later the enemy is granted a new supply further away.

I really hope that in Civ 4 "Stategic" resources will be exactly that- Strategic: Coal in certain squares, Iron in others, leave them there so we can plan a strategy!!

Toby

[notyoueither]

Of course you have a save or two to support the elastic rubber supply, yes? 'Cause I've never seen that. Has anyone else? Iron and oil, yes, because their disappearance/appearance numbers are fairly high. But rubber?

Still, I agree that the resource system is both a strength and a weakness. I have never been happy with how it has been implemented, and C3C just made it worse, IMO.

[Toby Rowe]

Are you serious?

Play on a huge world, 12-16 nations, once rubber appears whether by your tech level or another, If you have to fight a large nation, capure the supply and a new one will appear soon after- Now you've made me think about it, I might even play another one- I vowed my current game will be my last until Civ 4 arrives.

(I'm now just moaning and contributing nothing about a game that is going to be replaced anyway- so why am I moaning?)

Anyway, I think the massive imbalance between Cavalry verus Infantry during that long period was designed to annoy you, just like having to build factories in order to keep up with the AI, but then suffer the pollution, you needed the Tank so badly, investment and tedious pollution is the only logical course.

I once did a test on the AI tech cheating in Civ 2: I built 8 Islands and surrounded all others with mountains bar mine. I visited all of them, but never disclosed the map, when I could build Nuclear Weapons they were learning how to use Muskets at best.

But at least Civ & Civ 2 were honest in AI cheating- a pop-up box told you so whilst it engaged in it.

Civ 3 pretends it doesn't happen- that is annoying, even more so is the expansion in AI cheating Infogrammes programmed in Civ 3 once the legal battle over ownership of the title was resolved. Anyone know how they managed to win? Was it SMAC that won it?

Toby

[Toby Rowe]

Are you serious?

Play on a huge world, 12-16 nations, once rubber appears whether by your tech level or another, If you have to fight a large nation, capure the supply and a new one will appear soon after- Now you've made me think about it, I might even play another one- I vowed my current game will be my last until Civ 4 arrives.

(I'm now just moaning and contributing nothing about a game that is going to be replaced anyway- so why am I moaning?)

Anyway, I think the massive imbalance between Cavalry verus Infantry during that long period was designed to annoy you, just like having to build factories in order to keep up with the AI, but then suffer the pollution, you needed the Tank so badly, investment and tedious pollution is the only logical course.

I once did a test on the AI tech cheating in Civ 2: I built 8 Islands and surrounded all others with mountains bar mine. I visited all of them, but never disclosed the map, when I could build Nuclear Weapons they were learning how to use Muskets at best.

But at least Civ & Civ 2 were honest in AI cheating- a pop-up box told you so whilst it engaged in it.

Civ 3 pretends it doesn't happen- that is annoying, even more so is the expansion in AI cheating Infogrammes programmed in Civ 3 once the legal battle over ownership of the title was resolved. Anyone know how they managed to win? Was it SMAC that won it?

Toby

Oops, not content with moaning once I had to post it again- Sorry all, that was in error but I can't delete it either

[ThePlagueRat]

Originally posted by Toby Rowe
I really hope that in Civ 4 "Stategic" resources will be exactly that- Strategic: Coal in certain squares, Iron in others, leave them there so we can plan a strategy!!
Toby

I always hoped for many more tiles containing strategic resources, all around on every continent... More resource-tiles combined with an output per turn rate for each one, would set a strategic production limit so that in order for you to build a large legion army, you would need to collect many iron sources, so you would have to expand in direction of those in order to support more units of that type. Now it's so lame just having a few iron tiles on the map and one of them is enough for a monsterstack of 200 swordsmen.

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by notyoueither
That's part of the map. I doubt it was fixed since knowledge of the map was the one advantage given the AI.

Hense the 'AI settled a useless tundra tile... oops, there's oil there!'

Which turned into, 'I know there has to be something there if the AI was determined to settle a useless area. Let's take it.'

IOW, the advantages of the AI came to become advantages for the human who was patient enough to learn.

Its a different kind of cheat than just knowing where continents or current resources are placed.

I think its funny how these vision cheats for the AI, that were supposed to increase the longevity of the game (?), turned into a huge advantage for the human to exploit and pretty much killed any chance of playing the game normally anymore once the exploits were discovered.

Using game bugs/imbalances to beat the AI is one thing, but using its own best cheats against it to lure it in proves these kind of over the top easy fix AI cheats dont work in the long run for a decent AI.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Toby Rowe
Are you serious?

Play on a huge world, 12-16 nations, once rubber appears whether by your tech level or another, If you have to fight a large nation, capure the supply and a new one will appear soon after- Now you've made me think about it, I might even play another one- I vowed my current game will be my last until Civ 4 arrives.

(I'm now just moaning and contributing nothing about a game that is going to be replaced anyway- so why am I moaning?)

Anyway, I think the massive imbalance between Cavalry verus Infantry during that long period was designed to annoy you, just like having to build factories in order to keep up with the AI, but then suffer the pollution, you needed the Tank so badly, investment and tedious pollution is the only logical course.

I once did a test on the AI tech cheating in Civ 2: I built 8 Islands and surrounded all others with mountains bar mine. I visited all of them, but never disclosed the map, when I could build Nuclear Weapons they were learning how to use Muskets at best.

But at least Civ & Civ 2 were honest in AI cheating- a pop-up box told you so whilst it engaged in it.

Civ 3 pretends it doesn't happen- that is annoying, even more so is the expansion in AI cheating Infogrammes programmed in Civ 3 once the legal battle over ownership of the title was resolved. Anyone know how they managed to win? Was it SMAC that won it?

Toby

I'd love to see a save where the rubber does that. You have one, right? It happens so often you must have a save where you take one rubber and then another appears, and then you take that and a third appears, and so on.

Regarding the last bit, I can only guess that you think the AI trading tech is a cheat. Do I have that correct?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Maquiladora


Its a different kind of cheat than just knowing where continents or current resources are placed.

I think its funny how these vision cheats for the AI, that were supposed to increase the longevity of the game (?), turned into a huge advantage for the human to exploit and pretty much killed any chance of playing the game normally anymore once the exploits were discovered.

Using game bugs/imbalances to beat the AI is one thing, but using its own best cheats against it to lure it in proves these kind of over the top easy fix AI cheats dont work in the long run for a decent AI.

I agree that some limiters could have been placed on AI behaviour to make it less vulnerable to the human taking advantage of the AI advantage.

However, it is one cheat. Complete knowledge of the map simply had several consequences.

[snoopy369]

Toby -

The only fixed cheat is indeed that the AI has full knowledge of the map.

However, there are a few 'options' that your difficulty level gives that can be either handicaps or cheats depending on the difficulty level.

"Free Unit Support": At higher levels than warlord, the AI gets a reduction in its unit support costs (more as the levels get higher). IE if Republic gets 1 unit cost/town, 3 per city and 4 per metro or whatnot, giving your civ ... 58 free, then 2gp per unit. The AI at various levels gets more free - 68, 78, 88, etc., then pays 2gp per unit. It also at higher levels gets a bonus per city.

"Free starting units": At higher levels the AI gets free starting units of the highest offensive and defensive power (respectively) available to it, as well as workers and settlers.

"Reduced Anarchy": Higher levels of AI get limited lengths of anarchy.

"Reduced Trading Costs vs. AI": Each level of AI values its trades at a certain percentage of normal when trading with another AI. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it is intended primarily to allow AIs to keep up and not get left far behind in the tech race; also allows the lead AIs to bypass the human advantage that is AI tech leeching (trading an unowned tech to various AIs for tons of GPT) at very high levels (somewhat).

"Cost Factor": At higher levels, the AI pays less for its improvements (possibly units as well, I forget.) Regent = 100%; Chieftain and Warlord it's actually higher, while at Sid you have as low as 40% (reducing from regent 10% each level and 20% from deity to sid).

These are all easily viewed in the editor at "Difficulty Levels". It's also easy for you to get around them if you want, by modifying any given difficulty level to the appropriate amount of cheating you think is right.

In the scheme of things, Toby, it seems you don't like it because it makes the AI too hard. What level do you play at? I can say that Monarch is the recommended level for most casual players who like a challenge, as Emperor is where the AI gets drastically tougher (because of free unit support doubling, barbarians being 50% harder, and significantly more starting units). Regent is the level at which the AI is exactly as a Human, no penalties or bonuses other than map knowledge; Monarch has a slight bonus but not very high.

Plainly put, these advantages are what you'll have to live with in an AI, until someone programs an actual A.I. that has creativity. Humans gain an advantage in creativity, and by creativity I mean the ability to see creative ways to move, creative ways to build, and creative ways to use the rules that might not have been as the designers intended. I seriously doubt that the Civ3 programmers intended for humans to be able to take advantage of AIs so easily in the resource city grabbing, or in the tech trades for high GPT (thousands!) late in the game, etc. Human creativity allowed this, as it did bomber interdiction in civ2 (using bombers to prevent units from moving), and transport chaining (in several civs!). You'll notice I mention several "cheats", from some people's point of view; that's essentially what creativity does, allows a human to "cheat" from the AI's point of view - do things the AI isn't allowed to do. Thus, until an AI can be programmed to be creative as well - and trust me, that is a long way off, to the degree I'm talking - the AI will have to be hardcoded with cheats.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Of course you have a save or two to support the elastic rubber supply, yes? 'Cause I've never seen that. Has anyone else? Iron and oil, yes, because their disappearance/appearance numbers are fairly high. But rubber?

Still, I agree that the resource system is both a strength and a weakness. I have never been happy with how it has been implemented, and C3C just made it worse, IMO.

I've never seen rubber move, and that's not a surprise, because in C3C it has a disappearance rate of "0". That means it *cannot* disappear ... as far as I understand anyway ... but posted autosaves before and after a disappearance would mollify me (nothing else )

Iron and Saltpetre have disappearance rates of 800, the highest; aluminum and coal 400; oil 200; uranium 100. That's it. I am not sure what the number means relative to what, but i'm fairly sure the higher the number the more likely the disappearance (iron and saltpetre i've certainly seen move often). In one PBEM game I had 3 of 4 irons in my part of the pangea and then had the fourth disappear from an opponent and reappear next to my capital ... arty:

[Max Sinister]

I can't tell all the cheats hidden in Civ3 since I didn't program it, but I know that I had more fun with civ2 and even civ1, despite they obviously cheated with the wonders.

[ThePlagueRat]

Well, the AI-cheating is not well camoflagued. Some cheats are easy to notice. You might easily notice AI production and AI tech sharing is proportional to the difficulty level, but then you might call it other things than a cheat. (but it's only a question of definitions) It's just a quick and dirty way of making difficulty levels...

There you have one reason to only play Civ3 against human players.
AI vs. human diplomacy is IMHO the worst part of the game. I really hope they will not implement that sort of nonsense in Civ4!

[alva]

Have a look at the release date.

http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/255945.asp

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
Well, the AI-cheating is not well camoflagued. Some cheats are easy to notice. You might easily notice AI production and AI tech sharing is proportional to the difficulty level, but then you might call it other things than a cheat. (but it's only a question of definitions) It's just a quick and dirty way of making difficulty levels...

Production is handicapped according to difficulty. You can play with you having a massive advantage (Chieftan) or the AI having one (Sid). That is not a cheat, since it is totally under your control. If you want an even playing field, play the middle difficulties.

Tech trading is a cheat? Someone should have told me that I was cheating all those times I whored techs around.

[ThePlagueRat]

It was not that I meant. The AI have tech alliance at higher levels, while you can't whore around because they wont sell it for all the gold and resources in the world.

It makes a diplomatic situation where it's you vs all AI-players. Thus a harder game. This is not the case on lower levels of course, where diplomacy kinda works neatly even for player vs AI.

[Toby Rowe]

Hi All,

Thankyou Snoopy & Notyoueither for the replies.

First, Snoopy;

Rubber doesn't disappear, it only ever increases in supply!!

If you really want a save of this AI cheat (new Rubber) then I will monitor it, but I'm now into a late period in my current game, which is one game more than I promised I'd play of Civ 3, simply as notyoueithers' comments renewed my interest in checking certain aspects of the game.

I currently have 3 nations left, all of which are too small (I think) for the AI to place a new source of Rubber once I capture the original supply. Any reader of this; by careful examination of a LARGE-ish (!) nation before being attacked/attacking them should simply look at their map closely and noting the current rubber locations. I noticed that if a nation was down to about 10 cities-ish during the war (they started with me :-)) then the AI didn't give them a fresh supply.

Of course, the nation also needs at least one square of plains or jungle terrain for this cheat to occur.


AI difficulty;-

I play on Monarch level (with map editing), and have no problem with AI cheating to counter the human brain. I do however tend to get annoyed when it is very blatent and "in yer face" as most of the AI cheats in Civ 3 are. To be quite honest, I saw better AI behaviour in the 1994 "Colonization" game than I've witnessed in Civ 3.

Basically, the obvious cheats in Civ 3 are there as the programmers were too lazy/ or financially "worried" to programme a credible AI based upon current standards, let alone try to break new ground. The "silent" cheats you have listed are to be expected in any strategy game, for the very reason you mentioned (humans).

Civilisation is held up as THE benchmark of Strategy games and I quite frankly expected much more from the programmers. Removing extremely useful keystrokes that appeared in Civ 2 is an indication of that, the AI seeing your Subs just made me laugh- why even bother to programme in the unit- was it just to annoy everyone when an AI Ironclad sunk one?!!

notyoueither;

You might as well "whore" (not my choice of word) all your techs around as all 3 Civ's ensure the others are never far behind you.

This is what I would love to see a change in most of all- I actually want the difficultly levels to reflect the amount the AI can cheat in in this field.

If I choose say "impossible" level in Civ 4, then I expect the AI nations perhaps to only need to spend 1/10th gold I need to discover the same tech.

Conversely, that means I expect the AI nations to not freely give away discovered techs to each other at that level, should I actually gain a lead in the tech race.
That is called a challenge, AI Civ cheating on this key issue is now getting boring, and all 3 versions are guilty of it!

Toby

[SSBLoveU]

Oh well, the war is over. All I have to do is to wait for the ambush. Now, I have to figure what to do next, so I decided to read some post. I thought in CIV IV people could commit navel support or troop support. Or my allies could put some troops under my command. Or we could unite and plan on boundaries. It gets a little boring in peace time when the only activity you can do with your neighbors is to declare war, and then you find out the AI cheated on the location of the resources.

[Toby Rowe]

Hi SSB,

I prefer to learn how others think and feel, rather than argue, as arguements achieve zero.

I think that the programmers are pulled 3 ways in benchmark games- impacient publishers, gamers and shareholders, I hope Civ 4 appears when the game is ready, not when the above 3 groups want or need it.

Some Yank guy mentioned "forward basing" with your allies, NATO couldn't exist without this concept, and I've been in a joint UK/US base within mainland Europe, and have also unwittingly tested stuff within SHAPE many moons ago, in order us Europeans were propected against a very real threat.
Co-operation is important with allies.

Having an ally actually mean something in Civ 4 would please me all lot, forward basing by US forces in the Cold War was a clear demonstration to that nation in Europe that they had an ally whose nation was prepared to "defend to the death" not only the right of free speech, but the existance of a nation full stop.

I'd like this translated into Civ 4; Allied units should be able to stack together, My units should be able to do R&R in an Allied city and our level of respect OF any ally should be far greater than it is in Civ /2/3, simply as the word "Allied" really means nothing to the AI model.

The treaty exists only to be broken, no other Strategy game treats this treaty with such a level of disrespect.

Toby!!

[Vince278]