AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

[nbarclay]

Swapping the two wonders might be the smallest change from the stock rules. For those of us who never research Genetics under normal circumstances, the basic effect would be to make Genetics free (i.e. you research it but get what you would have researched instead for free so it balances out) plus getting one other tech. That's not too bad in terms of balance.

My biggest reservation, in connection with our other plans, is that putting ToE there would take away the biggest obstacle to building Cure for Cancer - the need to research an extra, otherwise useless tech. Thus, if we boost the power of Cure for Cancer like we had planned, the effects of being first to Genetics would be pretty big. So if we move ToE to Genetics, I think it would be good to keep the default effects for Cure for Cancer. Since ToE provides plenty of reason to research the tech, a +1 happiness boost empire-wide would be plenty to justify the shield cost of building Cure for Cancer too.

Also, consider that Cure for Cancer would have half the benefit of Bach's, but would be one of two wonders tied to an optional tech rather than the only one tied to an optional tech. From that perspective (and with the other wonder being something clearly worthwhile), the balance seems like it would fit well.

[alexman]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Thus, unless AI tanks cause more of a problem as a result of the change, the player who goes for Hoover is no less powerful, and has no less of an advantage, than he would under the default rules.

When you have two choices (the upper and lower tech branches in this case), you can balance them by either strengthening the weaker one or weakening the stronger one.

Obviously, when you compare the untouched choice (Hoover) before and after, they will be the same. But to get the whole picture, you have to also compare the other choice (Tanks) before and after.

[alexman]

I know it's related to the ToE/Longevity swap, but let's leave the Cure for Cancer discussion for the Cure for Cancer thread.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
How about swapping ToE with Longevity then?
Or maybe just swapping the effects of the two wonders?

Those are just two other ways of saying the same thing: removal of the Theory of Evolution from the Industrial era. I would be all for this change if it had been included in the stock rules, but it simply does not belong in a conservative mod.


Dominae

[lockstep]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I think removing ToE and replacing it with Longevity is the best option too, especially since so many people seem to like having Longevity in the industrial era.

I like having Longevity available at Sanitation, because San. is a) in the industrial era b) an optional tech that is not required for Hoover and/or tanks.

Originally posted by Dominae
... removal of the Theory of Evolution from the Industrial era. I would be all for this change if it had been included in the stock rules, but it simply does not belong in a conservative mod.

I have to agree with Dominae insofar as swapping/removing a wonder (ToE) because it is underestimated by the AI and therefore too powerful in the hand of the human player is, IMO, quite different from swapping a wonder (Longevity) that is currently useless for the human player and the AI alike.

[lockstep]

(I know the following thoughts are somewhat off-topic, but some things ARE intertwined, so I'll post in this thread)

So far, the panel has voted on three proposals regarding Great Wonders and technology requirements:

1. Increase Cure of Cancer's number of happy faces from 1 to 3, as (arguably) justified by its shield cost of 1000. This proposal obtained an unanimous vote of 5-0 in favour.
2. Move Longevity from Genetics to Sanitation (and descrease its shield cost to 800) to make its effect - faster population growth - actually useful. This proposal obtained an unanimous vote of 7-0 in favour.
3. Electronics is no longer a prereq for Motorized Transportation, so that (arguably) the ToE - Hoover beeline is weakened by providing an attractive alternative tech path (beeline to tanks). This proposal obtained a vote of 4-1 in favour, and is - after a discussion on procedural matters (i.e. the vote may have been premature) - currently 'under consideration'.

IMO, the AU mod's current rule type (although not yet implemented in the editor) is a major advancement compared to the stock rules. I'm also aware that change c) will have to be thoroughly tested and may have to be removed if a bunch of unintended side-effects show up. However, for the (related) discussion on the Power of ToE I urge the panel not to focus on proposals that - besides not being conservative at all - mess around with the changes already voted upon (especially a) and b)). In my opinion, the ToE problem arises mainly from the fact that the AI doesn't go for this wonder agressively enough - and shouldn't this AI flaw be rectifiable by using the editor's new 'flavour' option?

[sabrewolf]

another idea: bring the longevity effect (faster growth) back to the industrial ages and move ToE effect (2 free techs) to the modern days. 2 free techs are still worth it, specially if you're going for a spaceship victory.

[alexman]

Good idea!

[nbarclay]

In my view, swapping ToE and Longevity is far more conservative than is moving Longevity into the industrial era and leaving ToE alone. If we swap the wonders, the total number of wonders in each era remains intact. Further, because the value of Longevity is increased and the value of ToE reduced, the overall value of the wonders in the game is more or less preserved. In contrast, bringing Longevity into the industrial era and leaving the other wonders in the era alone (at least in terms of their effects) significantly increases the overall power available through wonders in that era, and in the game as a whole.

The fact that having ToE tied to Genetics makes Cure for Cancer worth building without a need to boost its effects adds further to the conservatism of the swap. As for the "1000 shield" argument, a thousand shields in the modern era is a considerably lower price relative to a civ's overall output than is 600 shields in the medieval era, considering all the railroads, factories, power plants, and police stations built in the meantime. The only reason I didn't complain about increasing the value of Cure for Cancer as a gross violation of conservatism is that without another wonder sharing Genetics, the change is useful for giving players an incentive to research Genetics. But moving ToE to Genetics solves that problem and makes it practical to leave Cure for Cancer alone.

The only thing seriously "not conservative" about swapping ToE and Longevity as contrasted with moving Longevity but leaving ToE alone is that it ruins the strategy of racing for ToE in order to get or stretch an industrial era tech lead (or possibly to catch up from behind). But to me, that aspect is much the same as changing the attack value of cavalry: yes, it involves a significant change in strategy, but it does so in order to deal with a strategy that time and experience have proven so powerful as to harm game balance. Making Scientific Method more attractive to AIs would not even come close to solving the problem because the only time AIs would have much chance of beating human prebuilds is when the AIs are far enough ahead that having them get ToE isn't a particularly good thing anyhow. Games where the player needs ToE to climb back into the tech race would be hurt, while those where the player uses it to gain a lead from a position of rough parity or, especially, to stretch an existing lead would be almost completely unaffected, which is the exact opposite of the desired effect. Worse, I don't know of a way to make AIs more competitive in the race for ToE without making them waste time prioritizing Scientific Method when they have no realistic chance of getting ToE; does anyone else?

Lockstep, I really couldn't care less that votes have already been taken because those votes were taken before this idea was added to the mix of possibilities. If this new idea is better, it is better just as surely as with votes already taken as it would be without votes already taken.

Nathan

[lockstep]

Originally posted by nbarclay
... the only time AIs would have much chance of beating human prebuilds is when the AIs are far enough ahead that having them get ToE isn't a particularly good thing anyhow.

In other words: 'If AI's could build ToE, they shouldn't.'

Lockstep, I really couldn't care less that votes have already been taken because those votes were taken before this idea was added to the mix of possibilities.

I guess it's time to do some procedural nitpicking: Once a panel is constituted and votes have been taken, these votes can't be ruled invalid simply by saying 'A new idea has come up'. If the new idea is better than the change already agreed upon, the panel is very likely to hold another vote and adopt the new idea.

(And just in case the argument of 'premature votes' comes up: The changes to Cure for Cancer and Longevity were already included in the vanilla Civ version of the AU mod.)

[Dominae]

A couple of points, aimed at no one in particular:

1. I dislike the idea of moving Longevity out of the Modern era. The only reason given for this in the Play the World version of the mod is to generate more strategic options. If that's the case, why not move all Modern era goodies into the Industrial age? It's not like we use any of them on a regular basis, so let's just put them to where they'll see some use, and increase our strategic options?

I am, of course, being facetious.

IMO there are good ways of creating more strategic options, and there are bad ways.

One of the "good" ways is to balance certain effects in the game, so that they're not too powerful (in which case they're always used) or too weak (in which case they're never used. This involves tweaking the stats of a unit, the cost of an improvement, or something's relative attractiveness to the AI. This is the type of change that fits in the AU mod, because the game stays the same, it's just that some things are now more powerful or less powerful.

One of the "bad" ways is to introduce entirely new effects at non-stock points in the tech tree. This is bad because the game becomes conceptually different from stock; "Woah", you'll hear people say, "where the heck did the Theory of Evolution go!?" As far as I know, the philosophy of the AU mod clearly states that "not changing the feel of stock" is more important than "adding more strategic options wherever possible".

A list of "good" changes includes:

-Zero-range bombard for Archer-type units.
-Free unit support values for Republic.
-Better stats for Colosseums.

A list of "bad" changes includes:

-Moving Wonders to different parts of the tech tree.
-Creating an entirely new unit.
-Removing something entirely from the game.

---

2. Based on what I said above, it's clear that I also dislike the idea of moving the Theory of Evolution out of the Industria era. We need to play with it's power in the Industrial era, not just get rid of the problem by pushing it back to the Modern era.


Dominae

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Dominae
I dislike the idea of moving Longevity out of the Modern era. The only reason given for this in the Play the World version of the mod is to generate more strategic options. If that's the case, why not move all Modern era goodies into the Industrial age?

When I started collecting ideas to mod Civ3 some time ago, I was very reluctant to move wonders to another age. But I have come to view moving Longevity as a special case because its effect - accelerated city growth - is nearly useless at the time the wonder becomes available under stock rules (because cities are typically maxed out in the modern age), but could be put to good use somewhat earlier in the game. With regard to other wonders, I don't see a similar enhancement of value.

Based on what I said above, it's clear that I also dislike the idea of moving the Theory of Evolution out of the Industria era. We need to play with it's power in the Industrial era, not just get rid of the problem by pushing it back to the Modern era.

I agree.

[alexman]

I posted an answer to the AU mod philosophy discussion in the main AU mod thread so we can leave this thread for its intended purpose.

[Dominae]

Your constant efforts at keeping discussions in the right place are appreciated alexman!




Dominae

[ducki]

Mark your calendars...
I agree with Dominae again.

I think moving wonders about is not very conservative and I'm not really sure how it might help or hinder the AI. If Industrial Longevity merely becomes a less efficient slingshot to Hoover, we haven't really increased strategic choices so much as we've changed enough that it's novel enough that we think it's strategic and we may not be helping the AI at all.

A sudden growth spurt for the AI (assuming they both outresearch and outbuild the player) may simply mean he's got a bunch of new entertainers in town. The human can take stock of his empire and know if he wants all that growth or if it will just cause happiness problems. I don't think the AI can.

[nbarclay]

Longevity is too much of a long-term investment to be an effective slingshot to Hoover. Indeed, to get a significant benefit from Longevity in your original core at all, you typically have to research Sanitation and build hospitals, which is a significant detour from a Hoover beeline. So swapping ToE and Longevity would not pose a problem of just replacing one slingshot to Hoover with another.

My ideal course of action would be:

1) Find an acceptable way to keep Longevity in the modern era.

2) Keep the Electronics requirement for tanks in our next AU game (the naval one that was planned before C3C came out), but in the next game after that, pick a type of game that lends itself to testing that proposed change. The real question in my mind is whether only third-world AIs would be likely to be stuck defending against the earlier tanks largely with riflemen or whether tank-vs.-riflemen battles would become easy enough to set up to be a problem.

3) Keep thinking about what else might be done to address the ToE/Hoover issue in a constructive way.

But if Longevity moves to the industrial era, I think swapping Longevity and ToE would be better than adding another wonder to the industial era without doing anything meaningful to offset that wonder's power.

Nathan

[Jeem]

Perhaps the main problem here is the beeline to Scientific Method, and the prebuilding of ToE?

I dunno if this can be modded or not, but if on completing the ToE, the player got the first two techs (from the left) that they hadn't already researched, get's them. No choice of techs in other words.

I know Scientific has changed to allow the choice whereas before in vanilla and PTW you got what the AI determined so I assume the reverse is also true for the ToE?

This way, the ToE will still be kept in the industrial era and still be worth two techs but not always the Atomic Theory/Electronics ones just about everyone chooses. If you've already researched everything up to that point, you haven't beelined for Scientific Method so you probably deserve it. More often than not, completing the ToE would get you stuff like Nationalism and Ironclads - especially if you've been pre-building it. Still good, but not awesome.

[Dominae]

Yes, if the tech choices were random we would have a suitable fix, but unfortunately we cannot do that in the editor. Incidentally, this is also the fix I would like to see with the free Philosophy tech.


Dominae

[Catt]

Originally posted by Dominae
Yes, if the tech choices were random we would have a suitable fix, but unfortunately we cannot do that in the editor. Incidentally, this is also the fix I would like to see with the free Philosophy tech.

In the initial Civ 3 release, ToE gave either (i) 2 random techs, or (ii) the 2 cheapest techs (I think it was the later but can't remember). If they didn't rip out that code and replace it wholesale, the possibility for modding the wonder to provide 2 techs that aren't of the player's choosing is still there, just waiting to be exposed via te editor. I suspect it was ripped and replaced, however.

Catt

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Catt
I suspect it was ripped and replaced, however.

I suspect it is still there, because a similar mechanism is needed to give a random tech to scientific civs when they advance to the next age.

[Kuciwalker]

Even if it is, though, I doubt it is reachable through the editor.

[Catt]

Originally posted by lockstep


I suspect it is still there, because a similar mechanism is needed to give a random tech to scientific civs when they advance to the next age.

True!

Catt

[Dominae]

Maybe they coded the Scientific selection routine badly, and hard-coded the options as the first-tier techs of every era...


Dominae

[Jeem]

Originally posted by Dominae
Maybe they coded the Scientific selection routine badly, and hard-coded the options as the first-tier techs of every era...


Dominae

This is probably the most likely case unfortunately. The two cheapest techs would also be a good alternative if that option is still hidden away somewhere (again, it's pretty unlikely). If it is still there, you'd probably end up with Ironclads and Sanitation unless you'd researched them during building the ToE. It's pretty unlikely you'd get both Atomic Theory and Electronics for sure.

[alexman]

The removal of the Electronics requirement from Motorized Transportation has been under consideration for over 3 weeks. Panel members: please cast your votes within 48 hours.

According to the discussion above, I would also like to place the following proposal under consideration:

• Move Longevity to Scientific Method
• Move Theory of Evolution to Genetics, and increase cost to 1000 shields

Any objections?

[Dominae]

Electronics requirement: let's try it out, although it does not solve the Theory of Evolution problem.

Theory of Evolution and Longevity: no, as I've argued above this is too much of a change for the AU mod.


Dominae

[alexman]

'No' to put it under consideration, or is that your actual vote?

My vote for the change to Motorized transport: yes

[Dominae]

'No', I object to the change AND I object to the vote, too.

If you reread the latter parts of this thread, it appears that most people think that change is a bad idea (I being the most vocal one). So why vote on it?


Dominae

[Theseus]

As always, I am in the 'go slow' camp.

Yes to Electronics, no to all else.

[sabrewolf]

go slow? isn't changing the tech tree quite radical?