Emperor games C3C: how to improve your skills - Page 6

Mountain Sage · January 20, 2004, 06:30

Now King Ragnar's is pondering what the size of Odin's army is

For all the warmongers: enjoy it!

Aqualung71 · January 20, 2004, 23:48

MS....thanks for posting all those screenshots. Now I can compare with some of my saves around the same time.

You've made one thing very clear - I've got a lot to learn about how to achieve early dominance!

Theseus · January 23, 2004, 20:05

Awesome game, MS!

When you warmonger, you surely are a mean b*stard after my own heart!

Mountain Sage · January 26, 2004, 07:13

Why do you keep calling my military police practical training courses 'warmongering'?
My PP reputation is going downhill with the likes of you, you know?

Rhothaerill · January 26, 2004, 17:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Why do you keep calling my military police practical training courses 'warmongering'?
My PP reputation is going downhill with the likes of you, you know?

I think your "perfect peacenik" reputation is already shot MS. First you were one of the only ones to beat the Total War AU course, and now you go on a berserker frenzy. At the rate you're going I won't be surprised to see Theseus's signature quote popping up in your signature too.

Mountain Sage · January 27, 2004, 06:58

'The world is changing, I feel it in the air, I feel it in the water ...'

Mountain Sage · February 23, 2004, 10:48

Hi everybody,
Since nobody playing Emperor games seems to post games to be played, here's a new one, called "SAVE WILLY".

You will start as the Dutch, archipelago 70% water, 10 civs, large map.
Your land is a lush one: cattle, bison, reindeer, pigs, mice, elk etc.
Willy has the bad habit of going to war for eveything a bit material, as resources and luxuries.
Your role is to counsel him NOT to do it. In other words, save him from himself (no wars for luxuries/resources allowed, no cheating in having another civ declare war on you to grab a luxury 'by mistake').
Finally, to have his glory last forever, you must win by a diplomatic victory (even if other victories are allowed).
Are you taking the challenge?

PS: for those who play it nicely and find it a pain, there will be a reward at the end of the game....

Mountain Sage · February 23, 2004, 10:52

Your first turn:

lethe · February 23, 2004, 16:51

Ok, here goes.

4000bc: Settle on the spot. This reveals wheat on plains at 89. Set tax at 100% science, immediate goal is writing, long term goal is philosophy. Build order is Curragh, worker, granary. Worker runs to the sugar.

3950bc: Started mining the sugar.

3650bc: Amsterdam grows to size 2. Add 10% luxury, Curragh gets built and sent off. Sugar is mined, spend a minute pondering if I should skip roading it, but with another worker due in 3 I do road it.

3600bc: Curragh finds the edge of an island due west. But it continues the circle of our own lands first. Finding others is good, checking out our own island and seeing if it's inhabited by squatters or not is more important.

3500bc: Second worker gets built. Back at 100% science. 2nd worker goes to bg, 1st worker crosses river and prepares to irrigate to the wheat on plains.

3300bc: Amsterdam grows to 2 again. Future oil situation is looking good, as our island is apparently Sahara Resort.

3100bc: Rounding what I presume is the northern tip of the island. For variation the desert is over and is replaced by jungle. Well, spotted gems atleast. Though it's pretty likely some AI will have sailed to those before me unless I find a pump spot somewhere.

3000bc: The clearly drunk navigator on Curragh One reports that all reports of rounding the northern tip of our "island" were exaggerated, and that they are now, once again, moving north along the coast. Our cartographers want to rechristen this island to a continent.

2950: Information provided by someone in the know tells us that with a treasury of 10 we are the second wealthiest nation in the world.

2850bc: Contact with Hittites. These well known peace-lovers share our continent. They are three techs up on us. Bronze Working, Burial and Masonry.

2800bc: Granary finally built. Started on a brave settler.

2670bc: Even further north we spot the outskirts of a hittite town. Atleast they too get the joy of a boundless desert. I originally planned on making a camp 63 from Amsterdam, on the gold. But I need it on the coast to provide more curraghs. Or maybe I need the first one to provide military support. Still no idea if the world has those pesky sedimentary barbs, or the raging kind.

I also berate my scientists for fooling me into researching Writing with a real effort, as it at best seems like it will shave off 3-5 turns. Or none.

2590: Build a settler, send him to the gold 63 from Amsterdam. Also spot another Hittite border. This one probably 20+ tiles from the first one. Me thinks someone has gotten lucky with the huts.

2510: Build Rotterdam. They start work on a warrior. Research situation helped tremedously by a city on a gold bonus resource.

Hittite town is Harran. On what again my navigators theorize might be the northern end of our "island". I hold no hopes, as there is still some room before we need to upgrade our Curragh to an icebreaker to find a norhtern passage.

2390: Build a new settler. This ones runs off to 888 from Amsterdam. Which is next to a goody hut. We are clever and know goody huts right next to towns never contain barbarians. They might contain Hittites though, as they seem to have spread like a crud by now.

Curragh One once again reports having rounded the northern tip of our continent. They claim to have seen snow this time, so it might be substantial.

2350: Rotterdam builds warrior to explore eastern inland.

2310: Founded The Hague. They tried to start on a courthouse, already certain that Mursilis will be dragged here sooner or later. But alas they could not, so they settled for a leaky row boat preliminarily christened Curragh Two instead. They also learnt Ceremonial Burial from our advanced neighbours who lived in clay huts. Which must be a step up from our straw huts anyway.

2150: Amsterdam builds settler, who heads to 7777, which will put him next to both furs and a goody hut. Clever lad. Inland to the east is so beautifully green that we intend to go with OCP+Camps, or what is commonly known as Ralphing. As we are lousy at counting squares this is certainly going to end up as "Mursiliing", or putting your towns at just such a distance that there are always 4-5 unworkable squares between any three towns.

2070bc (aka turn 42): Finished writing with 18 gold in the bank. I am very uncertain if this was a win, could have done it 8 rounds later with probably 150-200 in the bank, which could have convinced Mursilis to give me a tech. Oh well. Philosophy in 15.

2030: Met Carthage, who gave us Bronze Working, Masonry and 10 gold for Writing. Mursilis gave us Warrior Code and 10 gold for Writing. Reached tech parity and better cash flow than our neighbours. Carthage warrior is on the thin isthmus leading to Hittites. Atleast I have a buffer against the notoriously unruly Hittites. But my buffer has Numidian Spearmen. Some ups and downs. Founded Utrecht, which netted 25 gold from clay huts. I wanted a tech. The entire idea of the Trading Writing Gambit was to get a tech lead. I will end up paying for this, I know it.

1990: We meet Scandinavia, who basically walked up to our towns from the east. All plans on OCP to the east abandoned in favour of a tight and secure 3-tile plan. Rotterdam builds third explorer Warrior and starts on a barracks.
We buy The Wheel from Scandinavia for Masonry and 18 gold.
The Hague builds Curragh Two. Which is sent off to look for the Scandinavian Homeland, which must lie to the east.

1950: We are the 6th most powerful nation in the world. Hittites in the lead. Scandinavia at 4th, Carthage at 8th!!! This becomes clear as we sweep by Utica. Carthage is in a jungle that dwarves the Amazon.

1910: Amsterdam builds Settler, which is sent to hill 669 from Amsterdam. Rotterdam production changed to settler, then barracks. Truly a thin expansion gambit going on here.

1830: We scale a mountain range to the east and see the Scandinavian border. Also a settler+spear going west toward the huge beautiful grassland with cows between us. Hopefully I will reach the cows before him.

1790: Founded Groningen. As they quite literally _only_ have forests to work they get to build a barracks.

1750: Rotterdam builds settler, who goes 22 to the gold hill on the coast. In the long run having a permanent town on a gold hill will cost, but I desperately need the research boost this will give for now. I might build only a barracks in the town and then move it off the gold hill once I am in a Republic. Oh well, decisions, decisions.

1650: Buy Iron Working and 53 gold from Vikings for Writing. I don't have Iron. The Vikings do though, and it's hooked up. I think I will soon be Ragnar's Tech *****.

1625: Finish Philosophy first. Take map mapking as free tech, start on Code of Laws which is due in 14.

1550: Founded Arnhem. The small archipelago just to the west looks liveable. And further west our brave captain of Curragh Three has found a bigger isle that just might be uninhabited. Atleast it has unpopped goody huts. Always a good sign.

1475: I find the Portugese north of the isle I suspect to be uninhabited. Trade them 30 gold and Writing for Mysticism, then Philosophy for Horseback Riding+52 gold. 2 techs and 22 gold to me.

Change Rotterdams Barracks to a Granary. Cease production of settlers in Amsterdam and start on Great Lighthouse. With god willing this will open up some juicy trade lanes me thinks.

I find Aztecs. I am 7 techs up on those backward guys.
For the record:
4 techs up on Carthage and Hittites. 5 techs up on Vikings. 1 tech up on Portugal. No one else has Map Making.

1325: Discover Code of Laws. 10 turns to go on Mathematics.

1300: Mursilis scout arrives at us. Got a galley ready to ferry settler+spearman up north, just south of the 3-way junction between us, Carthage and Hittites is a lovely chokepoint. It's one tile wide there. That should leave me with only the Vikings to compete for land down here with.

Oh, the Island just south of Portugal was uninhabited, but so close to Lisbon that a flip is unavoidable. Further west is a large island with an unclaimed Iron though. If it's empty I might go live there.

1200bc: Hittites and Carthage both have Map Making, and Hittites are building The Great Lighthouse. Establishing an embassy reveals that they are doing it in a size 2 city working 2 irrigated grassland. My fears were overestimated.

Also our inventory clerk discover that we do have Iron. Groningen is on an iron hill.

All in all I sigh in relief this turn. Being the Netherlands means I don't have to really worry about any other resources before rubber.

1125: Contact with China. They are 5 techs down and have nothing to trade.

1050: Math complete. Started on Literature. No one has anything to trade, and except Portugal they are all miles behind.

950: Contact with Greece. Off course they got nothing to trade. Reports say I am world leader in tech, with Portugal close on my heels, Hittites third and everyone else about 5 techs behind.

Holwerd and Middleburg founded. Holwerd on a bonus grassland. The horror. But it was that, or loose contact with ether the cow or the sea. One less mineral for Holwerd it is. (In the end it's actually two less food, but that's far away still.) These cities, just like Arnhem, are building temples. Settler headed for the fourth spot on my will-be-border with the Vikings. Off course, we all know someone is going to sail around and settle a worthless city in the desert. Oh well.

925: Contact with Babylon. They are remarkably advanced, they are only four techs down. Somewhere there must be a trading partner.

875: Built Delft. Line against Vikings is now complete. Settler headed for a rendezvous with a spear and a galley to try and get the gems before the Carthaginians.

750: Discover Literature. Decide to go for The Republic. Done in 28. If anyone, ever, discovers a tech I can buy it from them.

730: Operation Jewel Heist is on. 4 turns sailing to do.

Krill · February 23, 2004, 17:17

Quote:

(no wars for luxuries/resources allowed, no cheating in having another civ declare war on you to grab a luxury 'by mistake').

Can you go to war to break a gpt deal, and not fight an aggressive war? I need to know, 'cos i have already done this by accident with out remembering the conditions.
I also have a good save game as the Maya, if anyone wants to have a look at it.

lethe · February 23, 2004, 17:38

670: Good and bad news. Good news is we built Great Lighthouse. Bad news is that Carthage built Hadrumetum ON the gems. Oh well, going to have to trade for them then.

650: Den Helder built on an island next to the gems. Can I accept culture flips for resources if they happen? Also, this netted me Polytheism from the hut that popped when I plopped down Den Helder next to it.

610bc: I have a harbour. The only other person in the world to be this advanced are the Hittites. But off course, they forgot to build a road to their harbour city. Our craving for spices from the exotic north can't be satisfied!

530: We find Persia far, far away. They off course are 6 techs down and have nothing to trade. Careful analysis indicates that Portugal might eventually rise as a KAI, but I am pretty confident no one on my continent will.

We are also pretty confident that there is no lose floating island covered in jungle with no AI presence. If the RNG loves us there might be rubber in one of the four squares of jungle we have secured this far, but it seems unlikely.

Harlingen and Lauwersoog founded on the island just off Amsterdams coast. Galley loaded up to try and grab island off the Portugese coast. Maybe they'll flip, but I need space to expand.

470: Nothing major happened. Wonder cascade came to a grinding halt though, Hittites scored Oracle and Pyramids. Vikings got Mausolleum of Mausollos. Portugal has had the Colossus since the dawn of time. No one but me knows Polytheism...

Or literature. If I wasn't surrounded by illiterate imbecilles I'd be tempted to build GL and go with 0 tech until Education. No one who has a half complete wonder both knows math and has ivory, so no Statue of Zeus yet either.

I'm dreaming of getting Sun Tzu, JSB and Sistine. With good pre-builds and a solid tech lead it might very well be possible! I think a symbolic war with the Aztecs would secure this. They are 8 techs down, haven't filled their own island, nor actually accomplished anything. I think a few Swiss Mercenaries will land there on general principle.

450: Greece declared war on Hittites. This probably means both will get a GA but nothing else will happen, as there are a full three tiles of coastal water between them. And we all know the greateness of IC conflicts for the AI.

430: Hittites have discovered Currency! A miracle has happened! I sell them Polytheism for Currency and 173 gold. I also sold Philosophy to Persia for 50g. Philo -> China for 49 gold. To not rob the Hittites of a good race I sell Polytheism to Babylon for Ivory and their entire treasury of 1g. Poly -> Greece for 29g. Philo -> Aztecs for 19g. (All they had, and I needed it for yet another embassy.)

Build Enschede, which pops a hut, giving me Construction and sending me into the middle ages. Portugal actually has Republic, but I won't give him the last two techs he needs to get to Medieval for it, as I only have 7 turns to go myself.

lethe · February 23, 2004, 17:48

The cash netted in the above deals let me establish the last embassies, so now I am in close contact with everyone but the Aztecs. Getting to the middle ages in 430bc without having built a single library, not being expansionist and not really having had many shopping partners feels like quite an accomplishment.

That the map generator had the gall to call this map an archipelago is amazing. It has two huge continents, and very few small, scattered islands. There seem to be more to the north, but those are a bit _too_ far away. I am however tempted to load up a few galleys and claim the island east of the Aztecs. That would end up meaning I have to switch to Communism eventually though. Maybe not such a great idea. I'll ponder this while I fix a late dinner.

I just realized something! I am importing Ivory and no one is building the Statue of Zeus! A miracle, I will build it to deny the AI the use of it. (Hopefully I _won't_ build it, but use it as a prebuild for Sun Tzu.)

Edit: Carefully considering a deal with Portugal made me take the leap. I gave him Literature and Polytheism for Republic. He doesn't have math, so he still has 3 ancient techs to go before getting medieval.

lethe · February 23, 2004, 19:35

290 ad: We built Statue of Zeus after all. Expansion phase is also complete, managed to get the entire desert, the isle south of Portugal and got a firm line drawn against the vikings. (Got my Forbidden Palace in a border town.)

Didn't opt for a forced Golden Age, I might after getting Sun Tzu's though. Hopefully this will also stop Wonder Cascade #2.

Current year is 370ad, and after the initially wonderful expansion and tech phase I've just been coasting.

lethe · February 23, 2004, 22:46

440 ad: I build Sun Tzu's. Wonder cascade halts with Great Library built by Hittites, Leonardo's by the Portugese, Knight's Templar by the Carthaginians. (Not happy bout this one!)

I also just remembered that deserts are equivalent to plains when irrigated for agri civs. Makes my heartlands look alot better.

600 ad: Nothing much to report. Building universities everywhere. Upgraded all spears to Swiss Mercs. Building Sistine and JSB. Sold astronomy to lots of people for cash, and the techs on the lower branch I don't have. Working on Navigation to get all maps. Then it's banking and economics.

As we are a peaceful nation the cavalry from Zeus is used to run to the far north cities to help rush in improvements. 10 free portable shields every 5 rounds. Oh well.

640: Discovered Navigation. Got everyone's world maps in a wild trading spree. The Greeks are huge, but their land sucks.

720: Built Sistine Chapel in Arnhem. Economics in 1. Still got a 2-3 tech lead on everyone. Well, except Aztecs, they are still in the ancient age.

840: Built JSB. Currently working on Smith's and Newton's.

890: Finish off the middle ages, steam power in 8. Still got a 2-3 tech lead on everyone. Greeks are in second place, but they will fall behind when everyone else gets booming metropolises and they are stuck with towns in the desert. Had deals going with everyone for the last 60 turns, diplo victory should be "easy". Not been involved in even a minor skirmish. Only fighting that's been going on has been between Greeks and Hittites, and Greeks and Aztecs. (Dunno if the latter actually came to a single fight, they are kinda far from each other.)

Oh well, Nationalism is in the not-so-distant future, and should spice things up.

940: I build Smith's. 3 turns left on Newton's, but it's cascaded into Greek territory. Still got a chance on Magellan's. Better than nothing, and good denial.

970: Build Magellan's and discover Steam Power. Good thing I missed out on the gems and got the tiny island instead, because I have coal. Industrialization in 7. Using banks as factory prebuilds in virtually all cities.

Greece and Scandinavia (!!) make it into the Industrial Era.

1080: Started on US and a ToE prebuild.

1285: Built ToE and US. Entered golden age, and not that far to go on Hoover either. Got replacable parts before letting ToE take me to electronics.

Oh, I have multiple sources of rubber too.

1295: Selling Atomic Theory to Portugal for 593gpt! More than twice the total gpt that all the other civs give me. And I already had a 140gpt deal with Portugal.

1340: Built Hoovers. I wonder why I built Sistine as I then had 6 luxuries in trades, and still do. Built cathedrals in border cities, but Sistine doesn't help with that. Oh well, going to stuff cathedrals everywhere once I am done with important things, once the world wars break out there is no telling if I can keep trading for em all.

Edit: 10-15 more turns and all cities should be done with all builds and from then on be able to keep up as new things arrive on the scene. It's now 4am, and I have an appointmet with my doctor in 5 hours. Gotta sleep. (Fixing screenshots tomorrow hopefully.)

Mountain Sage · February 24, 2004, 04:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Krill

Can you go to war to break a gpt deal, and not fight an aggressive war? I need to know, 'cos i have already done this by accident with out remembering the conditions.
I also have a good save game as the Maya, if anyone wants to have a look at it.

You can do as you please. This is not an AU course where the rules are a bit more tight

The whole purpose is to play it relatively nicely, as to be able to compare our achievements based on a common strategy (i.e. a peacenik game).

The Mayan save is of course welcome, as is any save of an interesting game. This is not 'my' thread after all, I'm just the caretaker.

Mountain Sage · February 24, 2004, 04:58

Lethe,

One question. Did you sleep at all during the last 24 hours?

TO EVERYBODY: please save your game the turn before you win it diplomatically. You will need it...

lethe · February 24, 2004, 09:51

1470: We enter modern era. 6 turns to go on fission, palace prebuild will be 8 turns, so got room if I need luxury. Last turn I managed to end my turn without renewing the silk deal, and thus I lost out on the silk. Probably forever.

Looks pretty certain that the election will be between me and Greece.

1500: Research Fission. United Nation in 11. Scandinavia has a stack of 4 cavalry wandering around my territory. Setting up more deals with him. That turns out to be impossible. Tell him to remove forces or declare war. He declares war. I've purposefully not built any offensive units. Going to move lots and lots of infantry into the threated cities. Also will do some mass drafting. Fortunately LOTS of cities are building wealth, so the Tank brigade is three turns away. I do however have a stack of 25 artillery lying around. Send it and ~25 conscripts to the front.

His sod containts:
5 Cavalry
1 Warrior !!!
1 Swordsman
3 Berserkers
2 Guerilla
4 Med Inf
6 Riflemen
6 Infantry

The town it is next to has 30 or so Infantry defending it. I have a war chest of well over 10000 gold. ALL mainland cities will be producing a tank every second turn.

Research set to computers, which will be done in 6. Not taking any chances, Mech Inf will hold the line.

1505: My artillery barrage and the enormous reinforcements that materialized seemingly out of nowhere made his sod step back into his territory. Damn I wish I would have 2 tiles to the border, but what can one do? This town has all culture buildings and some small wonders, and is still locked in a border dispute.

I hammered em again to make sure they were _all_ at 1hp and would have to go to a barrack town, removing them from the equation for three turns. In three turns I will have 30ish tanks. That should then grow with about 15 tanks every 2 turns. I'm not going to set foot in his territory, but anyone who steps over the border will be shot.

1515: Built 18 tanks. Setting all cities to produce a round of bombers before more tanks. His entire navy must be bombed into oblivion. (I myself don't have a navy. At all. Not one ship.)

We killed 22 of his units, as he broke his sod into fragments. He now has a berserker near our border, but that's about it. Ground power is overwhelming. Time to bring in the fly boys!

Artillery and mobilization makes a human controlled civ virtually impregnable after railroads are in place.

1520: Kill about 30 mixed troops, ranging from infantry to berserkers. Mostly riflemen and berserkers actually. Lost three tanks. (Elite tanks with 2hp attacking 1hp berserkers.)

About 45 kills total with elite tanks. Zero MGL.

We switch to War-Time mobilization level, as even island cities now have nothing worthwhile to build.

1525: Built a heap of bombers. Sank a couple of ships. Killed a grand total of 6 of his units. (All that were in my borders.) Lots of wounded tanks take the opportunity to heal for a turn.

Computers in 1.

1530: Elite tanks kill 2. No MGL. We sink his navy. Or the lion part of it atleast, sunk some 11 ships. Peace talks are finalized, and Ragnar gives me Peace Treaty and 650 gold in exchange for me not annihilating him. I still upgrade all infantry to Mech Inf.

Forces after the fight are:
17 workers (some got snatched!)
3 infantry, which are still plodding toward upgrading.
70 Mech Inf
17 tanks
18 bombers (these guys were very unlucky vs the ships, lost probably 10-12 to aa fire.)
30 artillery

1550: 1 turn left on UN. I call everyone up and sign them up in MPPs except the Greek. Get everyone but Ragnar up to Gracious with tech gifts, usually meaning all or nearly all techs. Ragnar sulks at Cautious.

1555: I win the UN elections. 8 votes for me, 2 for Alexander. The bastard Ragnar prefered him. I knew I should have annihilated him on general principle back in the early medieval.

lethe · February 24, 2004, 10:41

MAJOR SPOILER ALERT! Post-game thoughts to follow.

First off, yes, I slept a sound 6 hours MS. Just had an exam and next class hasn't started yet, so life is easy for this psychology student. Soon enough time will be at a premium again.

I feel pretty confident in saying that I won this game in 670bc. There are sea lanes to _everyone_, and I got in first on all deals. I had 7 luxuries from 400ish bc till I screwed up and lost silk in the 1500s. Under such circumstances the Great Lighthouse is probably the best wonder in the game. I guesstimate that if I would have had to wait until Astronomy to trade I'd have been stuck with 3-4 luxuries. That would have meant using the luxury slider, and that would have eaten away my devastating tech lead.

I don't think the island south of Portugal paid off. I spent a fortune rushing in culture there.

I spent another fortune rushing in culture along my long border with the Vikings. They also built all later Small Wonders. Yet some of them were unable to push out their border to the midpoint between them and the vikings. I was expecting to get flips there, but it never happened.

Good thing that I've learnt to be aggressive in expansion. Putting a town on the island with both coal and rubber was in retrospect a brilliant move. 5 tiles, 2 industrial resources.

So I had 4 rubber, and never traded any of it. Denying a goodly chunk of all civs the ability to build anything scary in the military department. It would have been better if my dividing line with the Vikings had been one more city to the east, then I'd have gotten a 5th rubber as well as uranium.

Everyone was Polite through the game. Ragnar got grumpy after the war, but what is to be expected. All in all he stole 2 workers, and 3 tanks died in counterattacks. He lost 60-70 units. I don't think his force depletion study showed that.

There were nearly no wars. Greece fought Hittites, Greece "fought" Aztecs. The former actually had some battles, the latter I think went down in history as the War With No Bloodshed. It's a wonder they even found each other to declare war!

Hittites and Carthage had a few early wars, but even when sharing a continent they failed to take any cities from each other. Which was symptomatic of the entire game really.

Where I screwed up: Placing Haarlem, the chokepoint city north of the desert NE of the actual chokepoint!!! This almost gave me nightmares, but I decided to risk it.

Not settling on the southern end of the Greek continent was a mistake. I _think_ I could have payed for culture there as well, and it would have led to more native resources.

Astute readers might notice that my detail level takes a dive after the ancient age. That's because my focus took a dive. I figured I'd pretty much won by then, and I was right in this assumption. From then on I never mm citizens, other than checking for possible riots. I don't agonize over build orders except in border towns, where culture comes first. I rush on impulse most of the time, not going around and writing down all figures and puzzling out the most bang-for-the-buck.

How would I have played this "naturally"?
1) I'd have killed Vikings before they got invention, or atleast crippled them by then.
2) Either immediately after Vikings, or upon Mil Trad I'd have taken the Aztecs island too.
3) Gone communist.
4) Once they cleared out all the jungle take Carthage. Might have been tempted to take Hittites as well. (I have a huge craving to be alone on my landmass.) Though this would have been well and truly into the realm of 1 shield cities even with Courthouses and police stations. Well and truly into crippling all my cities under communism I guess.

I haven't played on a large map in ages, if ever. This felt very much the right size. Got an empire of about the same size as my normal maps let me, but without crippling corruption. Even the island south of Lisbon got productive, even if it never payed back the investment. And turns don't get so _horribly_ slow as they do on huge maps.

It was a nice challenge, and I played with the additional restraint to not build offensive units until I had been attacked. Which was high risk before factories, but virtually 100% safe after.

It would be nice if the Civilopedia mentions the small nugget of information that makes The Great Lighthouse THE best wonder on some maps.

I'm going to take a nap now. (And yes, there are plenty of screenshots, but holding off on those for a few days. People can skip reading posts, but all eyes will stray to the minimaps...)

Krill · February 24, 2004, 12:50

Thank you for clearing up the rules situation back there, but unfortuneatly the save has been deleted by this stupid computer.
The save for the Maya;
standard map, 7 other civs:
Ottomans, Spain, Rome, Portugal, France, China, Dutch
70% water,
Normal settings for heat/humidity
4 million years,

Krill · February 24, 2004, 16:45

And the starting position.

Mountain Sage · February 25, 2004, 11:59

Lethe,

Wow, excellent game. I won in 1660AD.
Let's wait a few days for the stragglers to catch up

and then I'll tell you why I asked you to save the game prior of your diplomatic win...

lethe · February 25, 2004, 16:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Lethe,

Wow, excellent game. I won in 1660AD.
Let's wait a few days for the stragglers to catch up

and then I'll tell you why I asked you to save the game prior of your diplomatic win...

Next time I will save my notes and post them in more bite-sized chunks. But I really got caught up in playing, so it all got posted at once.

Aqualung71 · February 26, 2004, 03:38

Thought I'd try this one too now AU501 is finished! Don't have time for a commentary on this one, but I've noticed a few unusual things already:

1. Upon first meeting AI civ's seem to be polite. Isn't this strange for Emperor?
2. AI's don't seem very aggressive (except Greece who is a million miles away and declared war for no reason). So far have only had one extortion demand and that was for 13g
3. Not too many AI-AI wars seem to be happening either
4. AI tech pace seems slower
5. Cool map!

Any comments on the above MS?

Anyway, my start-to-finish strategy of getting into Monarchy and bashing my neighbours (ie, Vikings and Carthage) into extinction then being a benevolent Democracy after that is not working, since everyone's so nice to me that I feel really bad even thinking about war!

So instead I'll use the Monarchy unit support to maintain a good defensive army and MP to keep the citizens happy if necessary (obviating the need to acquire luxuries, though I'll trade them if available to help the AI with it's ingrained attitude problems). Have finally succeeded in spacing my cities closer, so the smaller territory (I'm number 10, yay!) will still be competitive. I'll try to play without declaring at all in fact, and will only hit the Vikings if they hit me first!

Looks like Greece will be the leader, so no need to keep them particularly happy cos they'll never vote for me (assuming I get the UN, cos I won't be 1 or 2, eeks!). But if they declare, I'll have to bring everybody else in on my side.

A Diplomatic victory objective from go-to-woe certainly changes the way you approach the game! But even though I love building, becoming a total PP without aggressive military planning also takes something out of the game for some reason. Good stuff MS!

DrSpike · February 26, 2004, 09:36

I'm in. I'll start tonight.

Dominae · February 27, 2004, 01:32

Well, it turns out the starting location (actually, two tiles away from it) is good enough for an OCC victory. I won a Diplomatic victory in 1685AD, scoring 2106 points ('William the Clever').

I'm not going to bore you with a detailed queue, mainly because I did not keep one. I'll just present the highlights.

As you'll see below, I played this game quite differently from your standard OCC.

1. Early Years

The starting location looked quite good, with the lands to the SE promising more Hills (essential to any OCC game). I therefore moved the Worker East to see what was what, and sure enough it made sense to move the Settler down the River. The next turn I moved Settler SE again, hoping that would put me amidst even more hilly terrain. Founding Amsterdam on turn 3 I was rewarded with the sight of two Gold Hills, four normal Hills (I dreamt of Iron Works!) and a Furs tile....not bad at all, considering Amsterdam's coastal, too.

Since I have the early queue, I may as well post some of it:

4000BC: Worker E, Settler SE
3950BC: Settler SE
3900BC: Amsterdam
3550BC: Curragh
3400BC: Warrior
3250BC: Worker
3150BC: Warrior
3000BC: Conscript Warrior from Goody Hut
2950BC: Curragh
2850BC: Ceremonial Burial from Goody Hut
2590BC: Granary
2350BC: Temple
2310BC: Worker
2230BC: Worker
2030BC: Barbs from Goody Hut
1910BC: Writing
1600BC: The Colossus
1575BC: Join Worker
1400BC: Join 2 Workers
1350BC: Philosophy, Code of Laws for free
1275BC: The Mausoleum of Mausollos
1050BC: Join Worker, Amsterdam now size 12
975BC: Literature
775BC: The Great Library

Only the techs I researched myself are listed.

Due to world geography, my two Curraghs were able by 775BC to get Contacts every civ but the Persians (whom I imagined were small and almost-conquered since I could not find them anywhere!). For some reason no civ researched Ceremonial Burial...I must have sold it for 6-7 times its net worth (and I got it for free!).

I traded techs whenever it was profitable to do so, but also sometimes kept techs away from the AI as long as possible. I did this in order to have currency for purchasing foreign Workers, if any of them were silly enough to end the turn in their capital. I was blessed with 4 such Workers, 2 Viking and 2 Hittite.

Oh, and just as proof that it is possible to be a strict Builder on the higher levels: upon completion of the Great Library, three of the world's four Wonders were in my possession (and the Greeks only completed The Oracle one turn before I finished the Great Library!).

I'm a big fan of the Mausoleum of Mausollos for OCC games now, by the way. 200 Shields for an upkeep-free Cathedral that generates 12-14gpt in Tourist Attraction money come the Industrial era is really really worth it.

As you can see below, Amsterdam hit the 20spt "sweet spot" right at size 12. I was quite happy about that.

lethe · February 27, 2004, 02:08

Krill, is this an AU game? I noticed philosophy as an optional tech?

Dominae · February 27, 2004, 02:08

2. Middle Ages

I researched Republic myself, but otherwise rode the Great Library to Education, getting as far as Gunpowder for free on the southern branch.

I made a very bad mistake when switching out of Despotism by not anticipating how many Entertainers I was going to need during Anarchy. This cost me three pop points during the 5-turn Anarchy period. I'll have to remember for next time to keep the Food box nice and full.

The Greeks gave me a bit of a scare by landing a Swordsmen/Warrior combo and declaring war the next turn, but thankfully my defenses were just strong enough to repel the attack. I got some other civs to ally with me against the Greek threat, and sat back to enjoy the positive WW.

I thought I was really in control of the Wonder situation (I built Sistine and the Great Wall because I had nothing better to do), when the Vikings got a SGL and rushed Leo's. Normally this would be good as it would help prevent a Wonder cascade from happening, but unfortunately the Greeks discovered Astronomy the very same turn! They proceeded to use their Leo prebuild to complete Copernicus' immediately!

Oh no! What's an OCC game without Copernicus?!

I was determined to win this thing anyway. As the Medieval era went on, I found myself falling behind in tech, which is somewhat typical of OCC games but more worrisome here as I did not have Copernicus and this was a Large map.

Then it dawned on me: perhaps I could try to win an OCC without doing any more research! I would get Shakespeare's to grow my city nice and big, and pile up the Gold. Then I would buy or, better yet, steal any and all techs available, selling them to the less-advanced nations. gpt and the Intelligence Agency would be my best friends.

And that's exactly what I did. I avoided Theory of Gravity (it felt strange after rushing to it in every other OCC game I've played), bought Democracy and Free Artistry, and used that SGL I had kicking around from way back to rush Shakespeare's. What a fun Wonder! I grew to a comfortable size 20 very rapidly, just in time for the Industrial era.

The AI being what it is I still managed to secure the Theory of Evolution despite having to wait for the other civs to research all the necessary techs for me. This ensured a strong showing for the rest of the game...hopefully enough to win. All I had to do now was wait for the AI civs to research techs, and steal them whenever I had enough cash.

Below is a list of all the techs I stole, each "Carefully" (edit: that should read "Safely"). Everything from Steel onward I used a Spy for:

Physics
Theory of Gravity
Steam Power
Electricity
Replaceable Parts
Scientific Method
Steel
Radio
Flight
Motorized Transportation
Computers
Fission

The other Industrial and Modern era techs I traded for with the less-advanced nations, using the techs I stole as bait. In all, I failed a handful of Diplomatic attempts (at the cost of ~8000 Gold), and an equivalent number of Spy attempts (at the cost of ~16000 Gold).

Just to show you why it was a good idea to buy instead of research myself: after getting Electronics from the Theory of Evolution, I set Science to 100% only to discover it would take me 31 turns to research Radio!

Below is a screenshot from just after I finished Hoover. Yes, that's a lot of Productivity; Republic plus Railroads plus Colossus plus Golden Age is quite the combo (I should have declared war on someone and entered Mobilization!).

Dominae · February 27, 2004, 02:32

3. Modern Times

I just sped through the end of the Industrial in my report above, but it actually took a long long time. Most of the AI civs decided to declare war on someone (not me; perpetual ROPs since Writing took care of that), and many entered Fascism to do so. This slowed down the tech rate immensely. Since I was not set up to do my own research I had to sit back and wait for them to do it.

To improve the situation somewhat, once I reached ~25000 Gold I stopped sucking gpt out of the AI. I only had about 4-5 techs left to go until Fission, and was generating a decent 400gpt on my own. A ways back I also decided to "modernize" all the backwards civs (Aztecs, Babylonians and Persians): they were still struggling at the end of the Medieval era, and I gifted them into the end of the Industrial era over a couple of turns!

Why do this? Well, I was really hoping one of the Scientific civs would get Fission for free so that I could win as quickly as possible. But only the Greeks would be getting there in a timely manner. To maximize my chances I made sure the Babylonians and Persians entered the Modern era at the same time as everyone else.

A good plan, but it failed: the Greeks got Computers for free, and the other two both got Ecology. Boo. I stole Computers from the Greeks to start a UN prebuild using SETI. I actually managed to complete SETI before anyone researched Fission (they were busy with Rocketry...apparently they thought a Spaceship win was the best way to beat me!). The Vikings got Fission, I stole it and traded it around (mistake!), and all of the world's civs started on the UN the very same turn.

I used the spare cash I had lying around to investigate the cities that were building the UN and see what my chances were for victory:

Delphi (Greeks): 16 turns
Bergen (Vikings): 17
Uruk (Babylonian): 30
Leiria (Portugese): 29
Hattusas (Hittites): 12
Pasagardae (Persians) 15
Texoco (Aztecs) 16
Rusicade (Carthaginians): 35
Amsterdam (Dutch): 10!

The Hittites gave me quite a scare. Due to Pollution that kept appearing (I had no time to build Mass Transit), I actually lost a turn on my UN build. With some serious micromanagement I got back on track though, irrigating just enough to join Workers, turning them into Civil Engineers, then mining the tiles back again to increase production.

The last few turns Amsterdam suffered terrible starvation, but it was all worth it: the vote was unanimous for William, minus Alexander who voted for himself (typical).

Krill · February 27, 2004, 12:46

Quote:

Krill, is this an AU game? I noticed philosophy as an optional tech?

Sorry, should have said that, YES it IS an AU game. version 1.03 with flavours. I play all my games with the AU mod. The game is quite easy, for an AU mod game, and I was not messed around with at the start by any AI.

vmxa1 · February 27, 2004, 14:16

Nice story Dominae. Thanks for the birds eye view of OCC in C3C.