Emperor games C3C: how to improve your skills

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by dexters
Any mods? Nice game BTW.

Thanks, and none. I like it 'pure'

[Aqualung71]

I've been distracted by Lethe's game on another thread and so have been avoiding reading this thread for the last few days as I don't want any spoilers. I finally got back to this game last night and played until 1330AD - here are a few comments.

Not going to war and spending your time building all those lovely goodies is fine, but actually knowing that you never want to go to war is a little harder to get used to! I don't have much experience at playing for Diplomatic victories, preferring to build the UN and shelve it permanently, so I must say I am a little unsure of the strategy required. Of course, the number one priority is to get the UN (since both Greece and Portugal are KAI's in my game and I won't catch their score), and that should be ok unless the AI jags an SGL at the right time. I've tried my hand at diplomacy, giving away techs left right and centre to the 5 civ's who are way behind and whose votes I'll need, but I can't for the life of me get them past polite.

I'm now researching Refining, so the Modern Age is beginning to loom. I have now begun to ask my "friends" for trade embargoes on Greece and Portugal with mixed success. My hope is that will reduce their attitude towards me, and perhaps even push them towards a military confrontation....and to that end I will soon start to make a few unreasonable demands (or plant some spies and send them on doomed missions). If that eventuates, I will then try to enlist my allies in military alliances. Beyond that, I'm not really sure how to guarantee they will vote for me.

Anyway, the Dutch have hit their straps and are moving steadily up through the ranks with their new-found techniques of closer city placement and utilisation of all available terrain spaces, together with a second government change into Democracy. For most of the game the Netherlands was the smallest civ, though has recently become 9th largest (but 1st in pop). Huge gpt deals selling industrial age techs to the leaders has allowed William to be a little less careful with his money than his reputation suggests.....erecting universities, cathedrals and factories all over the empire in record time and upgrading his mercenary army to national infantry (which has become very expensive ever since that damned "da Vinci" character defected to Portugal).

Once they caught up in techs in the early middle-ages, the culturally aware and scientifically superior Dutch have managed to build Sistine, JS Bach, Copernicus, Newtons, US, ToE and Hoovers.

Resources have not been a problem. The tech lead established has allowed us to perpetually renew our 20-turn luxury deals with smaller civ's without exception. The happiness wonders + cathedrals have also allowed us to keep our citizens happy without having to resort to handouts of any kind, boosting the research rate tremendously.

However, William is still not happy. In fact, he is decidely uneasy about the state of world affairs and despite his efforts to please, is still not at all certain who are his real friends and who may be potential enemies. This state of world peace is unnerving - are we witnessing the calm before the storm? Or has mankind truly learned to live together in harmony?

Only time will tell.

[dexters]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage


Thanks, and none. I like it 'pure'

Your welcome
I also. noticed your insane treasury. Is the gpt bug still active? If not, that's some nice trading you've done. I have a lot to learn.

[lethe]

Thriller: I don't know if it's possible to get past polite without gifting an entire era worth of tech. Unless you enter a MPP deal with them. If I want a 'sure' diplo win I enter lots of MPPs the turn before the UN is built, and after that gift them what I can. Which usually brings most up to gracious.

The higher the AI aggression level is, the harder this will be, as it might be difficult to enter more than a couple of MPPs without being sucked into the world war the coming turn. But otoh your rival is even more likely to be at war with hordes of potential voters.

[Aqualung71]

Ok, thanks Lethe. I think MS said he set the AI agression levels pretty low, so I don't know whether this is supposed to make "gracious" easier to obtain....though what it probably will mean is that there may not be so many wars to be concerned about when entering MPP's.

My habit is usually to avoid MPP's in favour of MA's, to avoid getting sucked into an unwanted war. In some cases though, the AI may not actually agree to a MA but will enter an MPP.

[DrSpike]

It's tricky to get them gracious with no common war. It is possible though if you keep trading with them, particularly for civs in your group. I had Greece gracious for most of the endgame.

[DrSpike]

Oh, and btw gifting them an entire age of tech doesn't help after the first tech. MPPs certainly do if you want to sign them near the end. However, everyone voted for me in my game except Henry, and I had no MPPs or RoP and only Greece were gracious.

[dexters]

The higher the AI aggression level is, the harder this will be, as it might be difficult to enter more than a couple of MPPs without being sucked into the world war the coming turn. But otoh your rival is even more likely to be at war with hordes of potential voters

Wouldn't that also mean the easier it is for the AI to self destruct by being too agressive?

The AI is never really good at wars where it is evenly matched. It forces the AI to stop building improvements and a government switch comes soon after that.

What I find are the hard games is an emergent AI superpower that is so large it can go to war with one hand tied to its back and not flinch. minimal impact to its economy. usually no gov switch. Add to that C3C's resource scarcity and AI happening to control every resource of something you need, and you see the picture. You're utterly dependent on it and the quest for independence is usually what drives these very fun games.

Sometimes, there's really no way out other times there are.

One example is my 1st full fledged C3C game. Pangea Standard. Only Monarch level. I started on one of 2 large Islands. Egypt was on the other. I went through the entire game without iron or coal. Had to trade for it from the superpower America which had basically wiped out everyone on the pangea and owned the whole continent.

As his power grew, the prices got more and more extreme. In my last grasp for independence, I organized-- at great coast, an invasion of Greece, which held a tiny chunck of the pangea and just happaned to have spices, coal and iron. If I took them, and then held it long enough, I could not pay the exhorbitent prices and perhaps live to fight another day (notice that there is no thought of winning. it was practically unwinnable at this point. ) But I persisted. After a long hard battle and finally winning Greece, America declared war on me right in the next turn, and ironically won by cultural victory.

Lesson for me. I like big AI superpowers. They're fun. And this is all on normal/standard agressive settings.

My point though is, I don't think a more agressive AI is neccessarily better. It might be on some occasions when you really need that pacifist AI neighbour but won't get it because of the super agressive AI. conversely however, If im doing quite well, too many wars just gives me lots of opportunities to play one side against the other, plan my long term strategy, pick my partners and cruise to victory.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by dexters

Your welcome
I also. noticed your insane treasury. Is the gpt bug still active? If not, that's some nice trading you've done. I have a lot to learn.

No, the bug is OFF.
Yes, I know. Just building city improvements it's so 'boring' that I trade a lot just for passing my time.
In fact, the secret of winning at Emperor is TRADING. Don't hold on any tech (except for a few turns if you plan to get a GW) and re-sell it immediately to everybody. With the gold, keep you citizens (moderately) happy = more gold and research at 70-80%. Then sell again. It's called a positive feedback.
Also, don't research 'useless' techs like Astronomy, Ironclads, Fascism etc., you will get them for free later on...
But I'm sure you all know about it anyway

[DrSpike]

Astronomy is crucial for Copes asap if you want to finish early. Also, amongst the optionals Sanitation is often worth a detour.

[Dominae]

I've had some good results with Military Tradition, too...

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Dominae
I've had some good results with Military Tradition, too...

Really? I used the results of it only lately in the game, but yes, it's moderately useful...

[ToeTruck]

First off, I had a great time with the last three games and finally now have a chance to post something.

I played the last William game as an OCC with a very similar timeline to Dominae's game. My game ended with a 1580AD Diplomatic victory which was a ton of fun.

I had ammassed about 20,000 gold but needed every penny to get out of the Industrial Age. I then had to mortgage the future to buy Fission from Greece which had become a serious KAI.

That left me with 208 gold when I called for a vote and I still had a -199 gpt deficit for another 10 or so turns.

Anyhow, there was no way I was going to get a spacerace victory with just one city at that point. So, I settled for diplo.

Thanks MS and good games everyone. I look forward to the next start position.

- TT
(William the Lion-Hearted OCC player)

[vmxa1]

Good to see you are still playing. I enjoyed your Occ runs.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ToeTruck
I played the last William game as an OCC with a very similar timeline to Dominae's game. My game ended with a 1580AD Diplomatic victory which was a ton of fun.

Did you do your own research, or go for the "steal everything" route?


Dominae

[ToeTruck]

Originally posted by Dominae
Did you do your own research, or go for the "steal everything" route?

I didn't actually steal anything; all techs were through Great Library, Theory of Evolution, or research/trade. Some of them got mighty expensive though (I think I bought Flight for about 12,000).

I could have made it out of the Ancient Era in a timely fashion through trade and research alone, but I thought not having the Scientific boost made the GL a necessity. The GL allowed me to amass a ton of cash and got me all the way to Gunpowder.

Wonder-wise, I built the normal OCC set of Colossus, GL, Copes, Newts, and ToE. I also snagged Hanging Gardens and Sistine Chapel for happies. I agree with you, Dom, that the Mausoleum is an excellent way to go, but someone beat me to it.

Not being Scientific was also an obstacle entering the Industrial Age and the Modern Times. Playing OCC, you really need that first tech; it often can be sold for big cash or traded for the freebie that one of the other Scientific Civs got.

Regarding your initial question about stealing, I usually find it only really needed when going for the spacerace, especially when a KAI has developed; plus it's hard to keep your rivals gracious if you keep on getting caught.

I'm interested, Dom, what did you find to be the biggest challenge with this game as OCC?

Talk to you later.

- TT

[Dominae]

I found the early-game to be exceedingly easy; there was never any doubt I was going to get the Wonders I wanted, and I was keeping up in the tech race without the Great Library (in fact, I was considering not building it and just trading to keep afloat). The Seafaring trait plus the great starting location were the major culprits.

The mid-game went well until I lost Copernicus', which is a major setback in most OCC games. This was probably the most difficult part of the game because I had to figure out how I was going to win with limited research and trade potential. Then I decided to try something new (the "steal everything" strat), and I breathed easier when it started working.

The late-game was difficult in the sense I had to balance between leaving enough gpt in the AIs' pockets to keep the tech rate up (I wanted to win fast) and making enough money myself to steal everything. On numerous occasions I rejected large gpt deals for techs just to keep the AIs researching (many went into Fascism and stopped researchign altogether, it seemed). Had I hoarded gpt, victory would have been more certain, but certainly a lot slower. Too bad it's not possible to directly translate Gold from trades into Science!

By the way, I avoided the Hanging Gardens because I wanted to trigger my GA later on with Hoover.

Well done on making the "classic" OCC strat work for you in this game.


Dominae

[ToeTruck]

I agree with you that the Ancient Era was very easy. Quick contact and a couple of key tech trades and I was off an running.

Regarding the Hanging Gardens, I plain forgot about the Golden Age. I was like "Whoa! I'm nowhere near ready for a GA." Luckily, I was able to leverage it into Sistine Chapel so I was pretty well set for happiness the whole game through.

I'm very curious about your "steal everything" approach. I've imagined that you could combine research, trades, and espionage to do very well, but I can't quite picture stealing "everything". How many techs to you really steal? And, was there a point at which you just stopped research entirely?

Also, you're quite right about Fascism. It's a game-killer for OCC; I've played other games in which *all* my rivals are in Fascism. All they do is fight. They don't even bother connecting luxuries. Playing OCC, you want the market flooded with luxuries and research to be high.

In this game, I built all embassies towards the end and found that Greece was the only viable non-Fascist state. A few turns later, it really started to take off - plus since it was on a big island, none of the Fascists could mount a reasonable attack against it. I think the AI often misplays Fascism, getting stuck in a "nowhere to go" situation, but it's unwilling to try another government.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Good to see you are still playing. I enjoyed your Occ runs.

Thanks vmxa1. I've still been playing, just lurking instead of posting.

I thought of you while playing the Viking game a bit ago. I was thinking - "All those warmongers must be loving this."

That game was a hoot, BTW.

- TT

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ToeTruck
I'm very curious about your "steal everything" approach. I've imagined that you could combine research, trades, and espionage to do very well, but I can't quite picture stealing "everything". How many techs to you really steal?

From my report a few pages back:

Below is a list of all the techs I stole, each "Carefully". Everything from Steel onward I used a Spy for:

Physics
Theory of Gravity
Steam Power
Electricity
Replaceable Parts
Scientific Method
Steel
Radio
Flight
Motorized Transportation
Computers
Fission

The other Industrial and Modern era techs I traded for with the less-advanced nations, using the techs I stole as bait. In all, I failed a handful of Diplomatic attempts (at the cost of ~8000 Gold), and an equivalent number of Spy attempts (at the cost of ~16000 Gold).

Originally posted by ToeTruck
And, was there a point at which you just stopped research entirely?

The last tech I researched was Navigation (everyone else was around Physics at the time). After that I was unable to compete in the tech race.


Dominae

[ducki]

OCC scares me.
Damn you guys are amazing.

[Dominae]

Umm, for those of you that are wondering: I stole all techs "Safely", not "Carefully". I forgot the name of the one with the highest probability of success. Anyway, it's the one that costs the most.


Dominae

[Aqualung71]

Finally got back to this game last night and finished it off.

Continuing on from my last post at 1330AD, the rest of my game was fairly uneventful (and tedious). Like others, I had maintained a defensive military for most of the game, relying largely on Swiss Mercs for defence and therefore not giving a hoot about my lack of Saltpeter. And also maintaining decent garrisons in my cities on the Viking border in the mistaken belief that culture flips were a concern....then again, Ragnar didn't invade, so the possible deterrent value was useful.

Things went pretty smoothly and by the time the early industrial age had passed the game was really about just finding ways to boost research to get to Fission quickly and build the UN (ie, rush remaining Universities and add spare-workers to cities that were still under their pop limit, build limited Hospitals in some coastal cities and add more workers, mass-building 12 Docks in one turn). Once all the known buildings were constructed (satisfying the builder in me), everything was switched over to Infantry as an invasion deterrent.

By the late Industrial age William’s compact powerhouse Democracy was finally pulling away from the crowd in terms of research, though he was still sucked in regularly by the 400gpt deals that Portugal kept offering for techs. At one point we were earning 1,000gpt+ from Portugal alone! This allowed us to continue researching at 100%, continue to spend 600g per turn on building rushes for the latter half of the Industrial ages (after which we gave up rushing as it simply no longer mattered), and still build up cash of > 20,000g by game-end.

By the time the Modern age appeared, the AI belatedly realized it was in serious trouble and wars started. Unfortunately the AI didn’t realize that it was the Netherlands who was the biggest threat, so crafty William remained at peace for a few more turns.

Eventually though it was inevitable. Having gathered a bunch of MPP’s over a few turns to move attitudes to gracious, we were bound to cross paths with someone. Insignificant but gracious Babylon and Carthage (long time neighbour, friend and trading partner) both declared war on the polite Aztecs, so my hand was forced. There’s one vote gone, and I presumed Alexander would vote for himself.

Anyway, that was pretty much it. Diplomatic victory 1545AD. 8 votes to 2 – Aztecs voted for Greece, as did Alexander. No abstentions – "William the Benign" was the friend of all (well, almost) and could have made it 9:1 if the Aztecs had been able to stay out of war a little longer and they only voted for Alexander to spite me. In hindsight, of course they were all going to vote for William. "Beware of Greeks bearing......" - umm, err, well.....just, beware of Greeks! The only Dutch conflict was, as I said earlier, when Greece declared war in the Middle ages for no discernable reason, and killed themselves on our Swiss pikes on the 3 occasions they landed (triggering our GA).

Interestingly, most of the civ’s must have been of similar population. While I was always 9th or 10th in area, my population for most of the game was 1st, but slipped to 5th by the Modern Age. On the victory screen however, I had 13% and Greece had 14%. So I was a little concerned Greece would slip below Portugal and I would be facing the amiable Henry in the elections. But that didn’t happen. Ho hum.

This game was useful for me since it was the first time I was really able to implement the MM lessons I learnt from AU501. But somehow being a totally docile peace-mongerer doesn’t quite do it for me. And diplomatic victory tends to leave me flat. As in, “So that’s it? What about all the expensive hardware I just built – my general’s will KILL me!”

Having said that though, I don’t have the patience to go back and continue the game as MS suggested. It will take way too long. Out of interest MS, how long did it take you to play through from your diplomatic victory (at 1660?) to your "annihilation" victory in 1956 with all that warmongering in between. Must have taken a while.

No screenshots, because.....well, just because.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by ToeTruck


I thought of you while playing the Viking game a bit ago. I was thinking - "All those warmongers must be loving this."

That game was a hoot, BTW.

- TT

Well Theseus love the Vikes. I have not used them much, but it is not pleasant to see a galley with a beserker or two show up early in the game on your coastal city.

[dexters]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage


No, the bug is OFF.
Yes, I know. Just building city improvements it's so 'boring' that I trade a lot just for passing my time.
In fact, the secret of winning at Emperor is TRADING. Don't hold on any tech (except for a few turns if you plan to get a GW) and re-sell it immediately to everybody. With the gold, keep you citizens (moderately) happy = more gold and research at 70-80%. Then sell again. It's called a positive feedback.
Also, don't research 'useless' techs like Astronomy, Ironclads, Fascism etc., you will get them for free later on...
But I'm sure you all know about it anyway

I actually did quite well researching on my emperor games i guess that's why i don't have your treasury. I prefer it to my 2k bank account. hehe.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Thriller
Finally got back to this game last night and finished it off.

As in, “So that’s it? What about all the expensive hardware I just built – my general’s will KILL me!”

Having said that though, I don’t have the patience to go back and continue the game as MS suggested. It will take way too long. Out of interest MS, how long did it take you to play through from your diplomatic victory (at 1660?) to your "annihilation" victory in 1956 with all that warmongering in between. Must have taken a while.

why did you build your 'expensive hardware' the first place, when you were going for a diplo victory anyway? I just upgraded my spearmen directly to riflemen.
As for the time between 1660AD and 1656AD, I don't rememeber exactly, but it took me, well, maybe 20/25 hours. As I had already all the city improvements in my core cities, I just switched to 'expensive hardware'. Each city with 2 shield/turn or less went on a long-term project (Aegis cruiser/MA) and then on wealth.
As usual, the logistics proved to be the most time-consuming, but I used only radar artilley to bombard the enemy, not my navy (too may ships, in fact).
My most embarassing errors were my aircraft carriers (useless) and the lack of transports (I left behind about 10 armies before hitting the Aztec). Not that it really matterd, anyway.

[Mountain Sage]

Dominae and TT,

What was the size of your military in your OCC games?

[Dominae]

Warrior
Warrior*
Conscript Warrior from Goody Hut*
Swiss Mercenary*
Cruiser
Cruiser*
Edit: 2 Curraghs, too.

*'s indicate units I disbanded to save on upkeep costs.

Oh, and handful of Privateers for fun (all got sunk).

[ducki]

Hang on, are you saying that's all the military you had ever?


You OCCers are freaking nuts. Just when I think I'm learning a lot of stuff, someone does something insane like this. Now I guess I have to try to find "guides" on OCC and 5CC, neither of which I've ever tried. (Edit: Yes, I know, read and study AARs of other folks' OCCs and 5CCs, that still means tracking them down and "studying" them.)

Seriously, though, 6 units total, not counting your Privateers, for the whole game?

[Dominae]

Well, if the Vikings had declared war, Amsterdam would have fallen no matter what (at the very least the war would be so costly that I would stop being competitive in other areas, and thus lose anyway). So there's no point in building up a military for that eventuality.

The other civs would be easier to handle: I could have built up a decent navy to prevent attack from the overseas ones, and signed an Alliance with the Vikings versus the Carthaginians or Hittites. But the likelihood of these civs attacking is more or less equal to that of the Vikings attacking (actually less because the Vikings are pretty aggressive). So whatever I do to keep the Vikings from attacking, I might as well do it for the all the other civs as well. Thus no need for a military.

You might argue that I would have needed a military in order to be safe when getting other civs to declare war on each other. This is true, but I never wanted to do this because I wanted everyone to be at peace to keep the tech rate high.

I'm perfectly aware that with so few units, disaster could have struck. But this has only happened to me once in all the OCC games I've played. This is just one of those things that you learn about the AI that allows you to play better (like predicting where the AI will move its units).


Dominae