{The List -} Government & Social Engineering

[Az]

Introduction

Government is not only the leader's primary tool, It's the supreme organization in every nation. Society is the human network of personal connections, and the norms that can hold a civilization together, or break it. This is the place for suggestions for the implementation of both of these in the game.


The Ideas

1. Government ( Government choices, new governments, change of existing government forms. )

Bring back Fundamentalism, and several of the Civ3:Conquests governments. -Brent.

New governments for the ancient age, like "City state", which would be similar to a republic, but more primitive, and "Empire", which would allow you to control large territories. - skywalker

An assembly with a mind of it's own in democratic governments, that could make some decisions on it's own. ( but not complicate the game too much ) - Stefu

The ability to fully customize the government, Describing the internal political system of it, and then, if needed, answering the government's democratic institutions, etc. -Cras

The changes of government, should be mostly left for the society itself, and not for the player, while the player could have means dealing with such things, such as supressing it with police, or changing the government's priorities. If all fails, you'll be either be able to peacefully, and automatically, and peacefully switch to the government of the people's desire, or fall into anarchy. You'll also be able to try and push governmental change yourself, but that will have to have popular support, as well. -Lorizael

Having government departments, instead of mini-wonders, to describe the functions of one's government. Those will also evolve, and appear over time, and technology. -Mr. Nice Guy

A Libertarian government, that would have no conscription, little taxes, more pollution, but more efficiency, and more hapiness. -Lawrence of Arabia

The choices made by the government ( perhaps in the Social Engineering model - Az ) will be used to 'calculate' to what sort of government does a certain government belong. -Mr. Orange

2.Society ( similar to SMAC's Social Engineering model proposals)

A system of different factors as in SMAC where each factor is on part of governments: like "social values" (religion - science - nobility [goes from European nobles to Confucius] - individualistic freedom - nationalism), "statecraft" (from totalitarian to total demnocracy), "power structure (from centralized to tribal), "economics" (from communism to complete capitalism), "justification of power" and "justice system" (theocratic to complete far west).-Trifna

Traits having having a limited life, and being changed either through gradual change, or revolution - Sandman

Having scroll bars define various aspects of society: like market economy, nationalism, religion, etc. -Optimizer

A system similar to SMAC, having the earth equivalents of the SMAC societal traits. - Fosse.

A system that would having two major choices: One of economic systems: like capitalism, socialism, mercantilism, etc. and one of political structures, ala democracy, monarchy, totalitarian. etc.
Also, smaller chocies would be available, like treatment of minorities, slavery, etc. -Stefu

Societal interaction - factions and classes in the society that would interact. Their levels would depend on their numbers, their civ traits, and the civilization level. -The_Aussie_Lurker

3. Federalism vs. Centalization

Instead of courthouses, have county seats, that would have similar effects to the palace, only smaller, and would be one for every 5 cities. In those places, governors would be appointed, and general happiness level for the regions would exist. If the happiness will become too low, the region could rebel. -Trebuchet

Governor Indpendence - governors choosing a percentage of the next items under construction, that percentage depending on the government. -lajzar

4. Other (Misc)

Have rations, working day, and wages, like in CtP. -Filix

Have managers/ministers that would influence the performance of your civilization in different ways, with new ministers appearing as the time passes.- Kramerman

Having dinasties in monarchies, and similar governments that would modify the civilization, ala EU.- Boris Godunov

Having finer tax and other rates, for example, 7% tax, 3% entertainment. (This would also call for multiplication of production in tiles, which would be less valuable) -Roman

Guerillas and terrorists, that pop up in cases of unhappiness and high corruption. These guerillas will be stealth units, can capture NCUs, and sometimes are controlled by the player who's city got conquered. Their type also differs by the sort of conflict. -Lawrence of Arabia

Waste in an empire depending not only on the government type available, but also on the information technology, and logistics, available -Azazel

5. SE proposals, and government models

Trifna's Social Egineering model:

*system of valors*
religion - science - nobility [goes from European nobles to Confucius] - individualistic freedom - nationalism

*statecraft*
totalitarian [includes king only or pope, depending on "power justification"] - oligarchic [includes king + nobles or whattever else] - moderate democracy [some have more power, like actual democracies] - total democracy

*power structure*
centralized - federation - republic - [Switzerland-like] - decentralized [includes anarchist local self-government, tribal local governance...]

*economics*
communism - soft-line communism [not following completely] - wealth state - moderate capitalism - complete capitalism

*justification of power*
theocratic - nationalist - militarily enforced - representativity - self-governance - nobility - technocratic

*justice system*
theocratic - oligarchic - martial - tribal or local - free for all [each locality organized itself as they wish and could]

Optimizer's system of sliders


* Market economy: A high value makes industrial buildings faster to build, but it decreases tax income.

* Gender equality: A high value increases industrial production but decreases fertility.

* Natonalism: A high value decreases war weariness but decreases the assimilation rate.

* Religiosity: A high value increases the power of Temples but makes policy changes more expensive.

* Political climate: A high value increases the efficiency of military police but decreases science.

* Centralization: A high value makes policy changes easier, but increases the risk of civil war.

TheBirdMan's evolution of governments

0 GOVERNMENT_ANARCHY

1 GOVERNMENT_TRIBAL_CHIEF
2 GOVERNMENT_ANCIENT_CITY_STATE
3 NO GOVERNMENT KINGDOM
4 NO GOVERNMENT EMPIRE
5 GOVERNMENT_SHAMANISM
6 NO DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT

1 GOVERNMENT_TYRANNY
2 GOVERNMENT_CITY_STATE
3 GOVERNMENT_ANCIENT_KINGDOM
4 GOVERNMENT_ANCIENT_EMPIRE
5 GOVERNMENT_THEOCRACY
6 NO DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT

1 GOVERNMENT_FEUDALISM
2 GOVERNMENT_BUREAUCRACY
3 GOVERNMENT_ENLIGHTED_MONARCHY
4 GOVERNMENT_MEDIEVAL_EMPIRE
5 GOVERNMENT_MONOTHEISM
6 NO DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT

1 GOVERNMENT_PEOPLES_REPUBLIC (a lá Paris in the mid 1800.
2 GOVERNMENT_REPUBLIC
3 GOVERNMENT_ENLIGHTED_MONARCHY (no changes)
4 GOVERNMENT_WORLD_EMPIRE
5 GOVERNMENT_FUNDAMENTALISM
6 GOVERNMENT_DEMOCRACY

1 GOVERNMENT_COMMUNISM
2 GOVERNMENT_FACISM (police state)
3 GOVERNMENT_CONSTITUAL_MONARCHY
4 GOVERNMENT_WORLD_CORPORATION
5 GOVERNMENT_FUNDAMENTALISM (no changes)
6 GOVERNMENT_DEMOCRACY (no changes)

1 GOVERNMENT_COMMUNISM (no changes)
2 GOVERNMENT_ONEPARTY_STATE
3 GOVERNMENT_CONSTITUAL_MONARCHY (no changes)
4 GOVERNMENT_WORLD_CORPORATION
5 GOVERNMENT_ECOTOPIA
6 GOVERNMENT_VIRTUAL_DEMOCRACY

1 GOVERNMENT_PLANETARY_EMPIRE
2 GOVERNMENT_ONEPARTY_STATE (no changes)
3 GOVERNMENT_VIRTUAL_REPUBLIC
4 GOVERNMENT_THECNOCRACY
5 GOVERNMENT_ECOTOPIA (no changes)
6 GOVERNMENT_VIRTUAL_DEMOCRACY

note: every set of 'names' represents names of governments in a different era. ( of course, the governments will themselves change, also)

The_Aussie_Lurker's class/faction system

OK, I just thought it might be a good idea to explain some of the concepts within my ideas for Governments and SE.
First up, Societal Influence is an abstracted confluence of the proportional population of that faction and its 'Political Clout'. It can 'theoretically range from 0-100% (but almost NEVER will!) Influence affects several things, namely:
i) Revenue derived from taxation.
ii) AI Governor Choices for a city's Build Queue.
iii) What Improvements you build; techs you research; Government you have and Laws you pass!
Secondly the 'Factions' are the various groups which make up any given society. They are:

1) Labourers. The ordinary working people, whose 'influence' is based on the amount of production in each city, the # of SPECIFIC production enhancing improvements you have and the # of operational mines you have. It's also increased by the number of strategic resources you possess, and how many Civil Engineers and Workers you have.

2) Farmers. The people on the land, whose influence is based on the amount of food each city produces/turn. The # of Agricultural/Expansionist Improvements, and the # of worked, irrigated fields you have. It’s also boosted by bonus resources such as cattle, wheat, grapes and the like.

3) Wealthy Elite. The rich and, in some cases, the Nobility. Based on the number of luxuries you currently possess, the number of commerce points you have, and the number of Wealth Generating Improvements (marketplaces, Banks, Stock Exchanges). Also increased by how many entertainers you have, and if you have precious metals and/or gems as bonus resources.

4) Merchants/Administrati. Those who keep the books, gather up the money and keep the internal and external trade links going. Their influence is defined by the number of commercial improvements, the number of ‘tax specialists’, the number of cities connected to your internal trade network, and the number of active trade deals you have going.

5) Law enforcement. Your Police and Judiciary. There influence is simply based on the number of corruption reducing improvements you currently have, the number of police specialists, and the number of ‘laws’ that are currently active.

6) Organised Crime. Speaks for itself. Influence is increased by the amount of corruption in your empire. Also increased if you have a ‘Black Market’, and by the number of Contraband resources you possess, or are currently trading.

7) Industrialists. These don’t appear until after you discover ‘Steam Power’. Their influence is increased according to the number Production Improvements and strategic resources that you possess.

8) Religious: Again, speaks for itself. Their influence is obviously based on the number of religious improvements that you have in your empire. It also grows according to your cultural strength.

9) Environmentalists. This faction doesn’t appear until the discovery of Ecology. There influence is based on the number of recycling plants/Solar plants etc. you have. Also increased by the amount of pollution you have in your empire.

Of course, your Civ Traits (Industrious, Commercial, militaristic etc) will also effect the BASE Influence of the various factions.

Mr.Nice Guy's Government Agencies
Government Agency Technologies
There are literally dozens and dozens of government agencies in the game, but when you first begin a new game only a few will be available to the player, but only a few are needed in the beginning of the game. In order have more agencies the player needs to first discover certain technologies, such as the Espionage technology in order to have a CIA (for example).

Government Agency Funding
You can change the funding for each agency as you see fit, however each agency requires a minimum amount of funding in order to function, but if you use the minimum funding for an agency you will only get minimum results from that agency. In order for an agency to have a larger impact on your Civ you need to increase the funding to a more desirable level.

Spending
Having too much funding for your agencies or too many agencies in operation, however, can be very expensive and you may spend your civilization into debt if you are not careful. You must balance funding and turn on on what government agencies you need after first determining the needs of your Civ at the time.

Micromanagement
However, since managing government agencies can be a tedious process and is a form of micromanagement, it is strongly recommended that (unless you want to spend hours and hours micromanaging your Civ on your own) you use the AI to help manage this for you. You can, however, only have partial AI management for this feature by checking off which agencies you'd rather manage on your own.

The Plague Rat's social engineering model
state: religious <------o-> secularized,
pluralism: centralised <-o-----> decentralized,
ownership: private <---o---> state,
civil/voting rights: the elite <-----o-> all citizens,

Maniac's social engineering model, and effects


Liberal/Open/Innovative <-> Conservative/Closed/Narrowminded Society Values

Liberal/Open/Innovative:
Faster research.
Military units used for police duty are less effective or ineffective.
Espionage missions by other civs against you have a higher chance of success, and they cost less.
Population of another culture/religion/whatever-concept-will-be-used than your state culture/religion are happier than standard.
Population of another culture/religion are converted to your state culture/religion slower or not at all.
<->
Conservative/Closed/Narrowminded:
Slower research.
Military units used for police duty are more effective.
Espionage missions by other civs against you have a lower chance of success, and they cost more.
Population of another culture/religion/whatever-concept-will-be-used than your state culture/religion are less happy than standard.
Population of another culture/religion are converted faster to your state culture/religion.


Decentralized/(Con)federal <-> Centralized/Unitary State Structure

Decentralized/(Con)federal:
Equal and less corruption/inefficiency/whatever-concept-is-used everywhere.
Less control over tax/science/luxuries allocations.
Espionage missions by other civs against you have a higher chance of success, and they cost less.
Population of another culture/religion/whatever-concept-will-be-used than your state culture/religion are happier than standard.
Population of another culture/religion are converted to your state culture/religion slower or not at all.
<->
Centralized/Unitary:
Less corruption/inefficiency near your civilization's core and/or in cities with a large majority of state religion/culture population.
More corruption/inefficiency the further away from your civilization's core and/or in cities with a large majority of another religion/culture population.
More control over tax/science/luxuries allocations.
Espionage missions by other civs against you have a lower chance of success, and they cost more.
Population of another culture/religion/whatever-concept-will-be-used than your state culture/religion are less happy than standard.
Population of another culture/religion are converted faster to your state culture/religion.


Free Market/Private Ownership <-> Collectivist Economy

Free Market/Private Ownership:
Economy bonus.
Industry/Production penalty.
Less or no units are supported for free.
Less control over tax/science/luxuries allocations.
<->
Collectivist:
Economy penalty.
Industry/Production bonus.
More units are supported for free.
More control over tax/science/luxuries allocations.


Free Trade <-> Protectionist Foreign Trade Policy

Free Trade:
Science bonus.
Trade/Economy bonus.
Less tolls and tarriffs from trade routes passing through your territory (if the concept of trade routes actually running over the map is included).
Unhappier people.
Industry/Production penalty.
<->
Protectionist:
Science penalty.
Trade/Economy penalty.
More tolls and tariffs from trade routes passing through your territory (if the concept of trade routes actually running over the map is included).
Happier people.
Industry/Production bonus.


Nomad/Expansionist/Colonist <-> Sedentary/Urban Lifestyle

Nomad/Expansionist/Colonist:
Morale/Experience/Whatever-concept-is-used bonus.
More units are supported for free.
Combat bonus against barbarians, pirates etcetera.
Military units and settlers cost less to produce.
Economy and/or production penalty.
<->
Sedentary/Urban:
Morale/Experience/Whatever-concept-is-used penalty.
Less or no units are supported for free.
Combat penalty against barbarians, pirates etcetera.
Military units and settlers cost more to produce.
Economy and/or production bonus.

The_Aussie_Lurker's SE sliders
Liberty: effects how free your people are-to speak and assemble in public (and private, for that matter). The lower you set this, the more 'content' people you will have in your civ-but the greater the chance of a revolt and/or civil war when the people DO become unhappy. Also reduces the chance of spy missions against your civ.

Secularity: effects the degree to which religion dictates politics and social policy. The lower you set this, the less effective religious improvements become, but the less likely you are to succumb to a religious schism. Also reduces the chances of a dark age occuring.

Private Enterprise: effects the degree to which the private sector is involved in your economy. The lower you set this, the less cash you get from company tax, but the greater control you have over what your city can build and what resources you can exploit.

Sufferage: effects who can vote for the government of the day, and the degree of influence the middle and lower classes have over your policies. The lower you set this, the more direct control you have over your civs domestic and foreign policies-but the more unhappy your make your people-especially labourers and civil servants.

Legalism: The degree to which the rule of law dominates your civ-and how harsh your penal code is. The lower you set this, the less your law and order budget will set you back, but also the more crime and corruption you will have to deal with!

Tolerance: The degree to which those of different cultures and religions are accepted within your society. The lower you set this, the lower your international standing becomes. Also, it increases your rate of cultural/religious 'assimilation'-but makes foreign nationals in your civ unhappy. It also reduces your rate of immigration

Nationalism: Not sure if this one is superfluous or not, but it effects the degree of 'national pride' your people have. The lower you set this, the more war weariness will hit your civ (patriotism is a strong motivator for people during war time), but also the more likely your people are to accept you making deals with civs from other culture groups. Reducing nationalism also increases the rate of immigration.

[Brent]

Fix Fundamentalism and bring it back. Include several of the governments from the Conquests.

[filix]

Originally posted by Brent
Fix Fundamentalism and bring it back. Include several of the governments from the Conquests.

There could be Theocrathy/Fundamentalism but it should be at the beginning of the game. As a alternative to monachy

[Trifna]

I just wonder if fundamentalism isn't more something in paralel to government... "Theocracy" would probably be a better term. If we want to include fundamentalism, then we should bring something called "valors" where you get things like: religion, individualistic freedom, nationalism, science (progress...)...

[Az]

Personally, I've always favoured a SMACesque approach to the subject.

[Sandman]

I'd have a series of cultural traits that you can develop. Ideally, developing you civ should be as rewarding as raising a character in an RPG, and just as complicated.

I'd like to see cultural traits that have a limited lifespan. For example, 'warrior nobility' would give you great (but expensive) troops during the ancient and medieval period, but in the renaissance period the effect would be weakened, and from the industrial period onwards it would give you weak and overpriced troops.

Changing cultural traits could be accomplished by either a gradual policy of gentle change, taking many turns to convert a single trait, or during a violent revolution, when many of the 'old ways' can be annihilated in one, blood-strained gesture.

[Trifna]

Originally posted by Sandman
I'd have a series of cultural traits that you can develop. Ideally, developing you civ should be as rewarding as raising a character in an RPG, and just as complicated.

I'd like to see cultural traits that have a limited lifespan. For example, 'warrior nobility' would give you great (but expensive) troops during the ancient and medieval period, but in the renaissance period the effect would be weakened, and from the industrial period onwards it would give you weak and overpriced troops.

Changing cultural traits could be accomplished by either a gradual policy of gentle change, taking many turns to convert a single trait, or during a violent revolution, when many of the 'old ways' can be annihilated in one, blood-strained gesture.

I think that the way it works could be simple:
You have a few bars with different aspects. If you want to go more towards one side of the bar, you put the cursor where you'd want it to be and there will stay a little arrow (where it aims to go). It will slowly move there, or bring a revolution if it's too much. Otherwise, perhaps you could also say at which rythm you want the change to happen.

[Sandman]

The problem with scale-based systems is that they're somewhat artificial and limited to flavourless dichotomies of war/peace, land/naval. It's also possible to reach a sweet spot which can serve you through the whole game.

That's why I favour a trait-based system, with many of the traits having built-in obsolesence, forcing players to cut away at 'dead wood' every so often. I'd limit the number of traits that a civ can have to two at the start of the game, rising as methods of storing and transmitting information advance; writing, paper, printing, movable type, cinema, television, computers, etc.

[Frozzy]

AI leaders are booted every so often and they have civ-like traits. So, the French AI could have Joan D'Arc as a leader (militaristic), and then be booted out and Daladier put in if France lose a war (he would be peaceful). This would decide the way the AI relates to you.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Azazel
Personally, I've always favoured a SMACesque approach to the subject.

I disagree. It works in the context of a futuristic society on another planet, but in the context of world history it doesn't make too much sense. Government forms a la C2 and C3 fit a lot better.

I want Fundamentalism to be distinct from Theocracy (if both are included). I think that Fundamentalism has a much more modern context than Theocracy. However, it should be styled so that it would make sense to revolt from Theocracy to Fundamentalism.

I think each government should have a value relative to every other government that determines how large a revolt is necessary to go between them. This encourages keeping to a type of government through history. For example, Dictatorship-Monarchy-Feudalism-...

I also think a few more governments should be added:

Empire - ancient age, can control large areas easily (because of lower corruption and get some special FP's, kinda like communism in C3). Is viable until a bit after the early industrial (think of the British Empire). Can easily revolt between it and monarchy (among other things).

Monarchy - well, it's already in, but I think it should be available early on in the ancient age. However, you don't necessarily want to switch to it because you'll have to revolt to get the good gov's at the end of the ancient age and the beginning of middle ages (Republic, Empire, and Feudalism).

City-State(s) - like Monarchy, except it's an early Republic. This one actually stops being viable in the late ancient ages, so it gives a really nice early builder boost, but beware as you may be conquered by a rising Empire (think Greece and Rome).

[Trifna]

skywalker, governments will work the same in the future as they worked in past in their general rules.

Here's a very basic example of SMACest government transposed to history and Civ IV:


*system of valors*
religion - science - nobility [goes from European nobles to Confucius] - individualistic freedom - nationalism

*statecraft*
totalitarian [includes king only or pope, depending on "power justification"] - oligarchic [includes king + nobles or whattever else] - moderate democracy [some have more power, like actual democracies] - total democracy

*power structure*
centralized - federation - republic - [Switzerland-like] - decentralized [includes anarchist local self-government, tribal local governance...]

*economics*
communism - soft-line communism [not following completely] - wealth state - moderate capitalism - complete capitalism

*justification of power*
theocratic - nationalist - militarily enforced - representativity - self-governance - nobility - technocratic

*justice system*
theocratic - oligarchic - martial - tribal or local - free for all [each locality organized itself as they wish and could]




This is ONLY something I wrote rapidly. It may not be simplified enough in some places and too simplified in some other places. Of course, I saw some incompatibilities but I have no time to look at what to do with this now. I already put too much time on this, now I need to go back to exams

[Kuciwalker]

I don't see how you'll limit it technologically though.

I mean, you should only see capitalist democracies (Athens doesn't really count) in the Industrial era, and feudal theocracies in the Middle Ages.

[Az]

Trifna:This sounds great, but what traits ala SMAC would it influence?

Sandman: Ok, forget the scroll bar. Let's stick with the different paths, that have different effects ala smac.

[Fosse]

skywalker... you would limit it technologically the same way you do in Civ 3 or SMAC. You have to discover a technology that unlocks a certain government chioce option. Just like you research Monarchy in Civ 3.

Azazel: Good question. I'll try to throw out some ideas.

SMAC had: Economy, Efficiency, Support, Morale, Police, Growth, Planet, Probes, Industry, Research.

If we wanted a straight, one to one conversion we would have: Economy, Corruption, Support, Military Preparedness(?), Police, Growth, Environment, Special Ops, Industry, Research.

That would work out fine, I think, but we might be able to do better.


"Happiness" could impact how bad a city has to get before it riots, and how likely it is that the citizens would move away to other countries, perhaps.


There could be a happiness factor. Running a communist dictatorship would mean working harder to keep people happy than a controled free market democracy, for example.


The Civ 4 system could use new quirks too, compared to SMAC. Someone once suggested having "The People" with their ideal set of government choices, and deviating from those would cause discontent. I like that, so long as the penalty isn't HUGE. If you run a free market and start doing a terrible job, then your people might start disliking free markets, for example.

[Fosse]

Originally posted by Azazel
Sandman: Ok, forget the scroll bar. Let's stick with the different paths, that have different effects ala smac.

With one exception: Tax rates. I should be able to have 7% of my income going to tax, and 3% to entertainment if I want.

[Roman]

Originally posted by Fosse


With one exception: Tax rates. I should be able to have 7% of my income going to tax, and 3% to entertainment if I want.

If you want to do that than the measure of wealth will have to be decreased in value to allow for finer graduations (think CTP Gold versus Civ III Gold). Currently, none of your civilization's cities are likely to be earning more than 100 gold until rather late in the game, so such a fine graduation of tax rates is unnecessary, but as I said - this could be rectified by decreasing the value of a gold piece by say 10 fold.

[Fosse]

You make a good point. In fact, I have always wanted this decrease in value, and increase in amounts. It allows for more distinction in tiles that way.

With Civ 3 we get tiles with 0 shileds, 1 shield, 2 or 3 shileds. Why not make it 10, 20 and 30, so that we can have more terrains with real differences in productive capability?

Good point Roman, and I think that it is the way to go.

[Trifna]

You can limit this technologically as you can limit anything technologically. I don't see why it couldn't be limited technologically. Theocracy needs religion, kings need monarchy, etc. Perhaps that some parts are there to start with, but it all evolves.

Azazel: My thread wasn't to say which traits it'd influence. ALL traits, whattever what they are, are influenced by this. To know which traits should be included, we'd need to know which traits are forming a society (demography, happiness, capacity to build armies, taxes...).

My goal was alot more to resume a society in a few aspects, and not simply to bring some aspects to be included. It's not a bunch of dissociated elements, it's a whole forming one society. All these categories, resuming what would be more complicated if put as scroll bars, are saying everything concerning the general mold of a society.

[Kuciwalker]

skywalker... you would limit it technologically the same way you do in Civ 3 or SMAC. You have to discover a technology that unlocks a certain government chioce option. Just like you research Monarchy in Civ 3.

That doesn't really work, however, because certain combinations need to be at a certain tech, even if all of the individual components have been researched.

Plus, there are only so many variations in the real world. Leave it that way.

[Trifna]

I think I can update and resume my way of looking at this:



Goal

The goal is to look at what forms a government and to see how we could bring all this government in a few aspects. The ones I see are "System of values", "Justification of power", "Control system [justice, police...]", "Statecraft", "Administrative structure", "Economic system".




Definitions

- System of values: what forms the core belief for someone's life
- Justification of power: what is the rulers' justification for their power
- Control system: how citizens are controlled (justice, police...)
- Statecraft: who is put to direct the state, which necessarily implies how the state is ruled and its philosophy
- Administrative structure: the way power is divided between the main part the subdivisions
- Economic system: how economy is ruled





Difference with Civ 3 system, and this system's way to look at the problem

The main difference here is that it is about showing what structures and forms the government, not about showing a few possible results to chose from. In other words, it is not about creating categories like "fascism" and "democracy" as in precedent titles, but to show what is forming societies and, of course, someone can bring fascism or representative democracy (or what pleases him) by puting what forms that. ANY society can be built through such a system, in its broad aspects. Everything that forms a government should be there in a simple way.




Example that I brang earlier (updated, and not perfect)

*System of values*
religion - science - nobility [goes from European nobles to Confucius] - individualistic freedom - nationalism

*Justification of power*
theocratic - nationalist - militarily enforced - representativity - self-governance - nobility - technocratic

*Control system*
theocratic - oligarchic - martial - tribal or local - free for all [each locality organized itself as they wish and can]

*Statecraft*
totalitarian [includes king only, pope or else, depending on "justification of power"] - oligarchic [includes king + nobles or whattever else] - moderate democracy [some have more power, like actual democracies] - total democracy

*Administrative structure*
centralized - federation - republic - [Switzerland-like] - decentralized [includes anarchist local self-government, tribal local governance...]

*Economic system*
communism - soft-line communism [not following completely] - wealth state - moderate capitalism - complete capitalism

[Kuciwalker]

What's a valor? I saw your defintion, but AFAIK, the only meaning of the word "valor" is bravery and/or honor.

[Trifna]

skywalker: No. Valor to me is what socially counts for you, what forms your social ideal. Perhaps my term is not chosen well, I guess "values" perhaps would be better? If you have a better term to propose, go ahead and propose.

Besides, I know that the example is still not perfect. Yet, it's only there to show how it can work. A very easy example to point out is that we only see communism and capitalism while obviously it doesn't reflect Middle Ages or before.

[Kuciwalker]

Yes, values would be better

[Stefu]

I'd like a sort-of-social-engineering system, but only limited to a choice of government and a choice of an economic system, and some other, simpler choices. With government, you get your usual Despotism - Monarchy - Theocracy - Democracy - Totalitarianism thang, with Economics you'd get Autarchy - Mercantilism - Capitalism - Socialism - Communism or something like that. Then there'd be a number of smaller choices. Some depend on the form of government you have.

The smaller choices would be something like "Slavery yes/no", "A feudal system yes/no" (only if you're a monarchy", "How do we treat the minority X persecution/assimilation/multiculturalism" (persecution not available to democracies), "Who gets the vote? Landowning majority-population majority-religion men [ ] and non-landowners [ ] and minority populations [ ] and minority religions [ ] and women [ ]" (democracies only, if you check everything you're giving the vote to everyone) and so on.

In democracy, there could be an elected assembly with some limited powers - mainly deciding on going to war, the smaller issues and the economic choices, as well as have some influence about the tax rates. And they could occassionally decide to build something somewhere. They shouldn't complicate being a democracy too much, though - the player should get veto powers, to a degree, though using it too much will eventually lead to the people getting pissed off. You could have different parties - Conservatives, Liberals, Socialists and what have you.

[Fosse]

Originally posted by skywalker

Quote:

skywalker... you would limit it technologically the same way you do in Civ 3 or SMAC. You have to discover a technology that unlocks a certain government chioce option. Just like you research Monarchy in Civ 3.

That doesn't really work, however, because certain combinations need to be at a certain tech, even if all of the individual components have been researched.

Plus, there are only so many variations in the real world. Leave it that way.

Well, theoretically you could simply limit combonations even if components are available. But I would disagree with the idea that this is true.
A system could be devised with a little work that would prevent clearly inappropriate historical combinations. And if some historically inaccurate combinations are possible, so be it. Nobody every conquered the world with knights, either.


And there aren't "only so many variations in the real world." Every single democracy is markedly different, just as every economy is. Many differences are too small to deal with in Civ, true, but we're talking about something that would give the player an extra degree of control at the macroscopic level. Why shoehorn us into one of five or six unalterable modes?

Why can't I have a democratically elected state that loves war?
Why can't I have a benevolent dictatorship in the 20th century?
Why can't I can't my communist society elect its leaders?

This is, after all, a game.

Besides, so many of the choices that impact how your society works don't have to be strictly government/economy based. We have the "valors" values, we can have militarism, trade attitudes.



We should be able to set Politics, Economics, and then any number of Values.

[Fosse]

Cross post with Stefu. I essentially agree that what he said could be really good.

[Optimizer]

I believe that a group of sliders like the one in Europa Universalis could simulate most historical and hypothetical forms of governments and policies. Some sliders would be available as certain techs are discovered.

Examples on policy sliders and their impact on the game:

* Market economy: A high value makes industrial buildings faster to build, but it decreases tax income.

* Gender equality: A high value increases industrial production but decreases fertility.

* Natonalism: A high value decreases war weariness but decreases the assimilation rate.

* Religiosity: A high value increases the power of Temples but makes policy changes more expensive.

* Political climate: A high value increases the efficiency of military police but decreases science.

* Centralization: A high value makes policy changes easier, but increases the risk of civil war.

[filix]

Originally posted by Optimizer

Examples on policies and their impact on the game:

* Economic policy: market (economic and industrial structures cheaper) vs planned (greater tax income)

In my poinion planned should be more productive because the planer has direct influence of the goods produktion. I think thats the reason why communism is more productive (in ctp) than democrathy
At the market the capital is used for the most produktive use. But that is not always what the president want. Market should have more tax income and less produktion than planed economy.
I`m not sure how science should be handeld but i thin democrthy should have the benifit. I like the ctp solution of democrathy vs communism. There it is possible to substitue the sience bonus of democrathy with the production bonus of cmmunism.
Perhaps we should ask an economist, but keep in mind that the UDSSR was a very powerful nation in reality for a long time...
bla bla
Anyway i think a big tax income cant be the benifit of a planed economy because on a planed economy there is the need of subventions and other price regulations which are not cheap.

Can anyone exlain it with a economy circle in english?
With a pole of state production and enterprise produktion.
Perhaps im wrong but market and planed should be equals

[Nikolai]

I like the system Trifna & co is proposing. As for tax, I'd like to see some limitations based on the economic part of the system. So that a capitalistic system can't have it's tax rate higher than say 50 %. What do you think?

[Az]

Personally, I think that science rates are completely unrealistic. Did you know that we actually use only some 2 percent of our output on science?

Personally, I think that in earlier times, we should have much more sever caps on science.