Thread Tools
Old December 14, 2003, 17:49   #1
Shi Huangdi
Emperor
 
Shi Huangdi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 4,213
USA and France to reconcile?
While watching the news today I saw encouraging news regarding world leaders reactions, particularly regarding France. Chirac said he was most pleased at Saddam's captured, and the French Foreign Minister now said that France would be willing to play its part in the international "ensemble" rebuilding Iraq.

James Baker is about to head to France for negoitations with Chirac. The main thing the USA is trying to negotiate would be cancellation of the Iraq debt, France's main goal would be to get on the bidding list for reconstructing Iraq. But perhaps now a larger for France would be more politcally papable now that this major victory has been scored on the coalition side?

Do any of our French posters have any ideas on what France might be willing to do? Forgive the Iraq debt? Make a formal statement putting them in the coalition of the willing? Help finance the reconstruction? Send in the French Foreign Legion?
__________________
"I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer

"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand
Shi Huangdi is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 17:54   #2
Nubclear
NationStatesCall to Power II Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamRise of Nations MultiplayerACDG The Human HiveNever Ending StoriesACDG The Free DronesACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessGalCiv Apolyton EmpireACDG3 SpartansC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameDiplomacyAlpha Centauri PBEMCivilization IV PBEMAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG Peace
PolyCast Thread Necromancer
 
Nubclear's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: We are all Asher now.
Posts: 1,437
France has no balls. I certainly hope Russia does.
Nubclear is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 17:55   #3
Dis
ACDG3 SpartansC4DG Vox
Deity
 
Dis's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
now they want to get in?
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
Dis is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 17:56   #4
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
We're having very big financial trouble, and it's unlikely we'll make any commitment that would cost us significant money. Besides, we're trying to keep our "party discipline" with the Germans and the Russians, and thus I don't think we'd do anything too drastic in direction of the US.

OTOH, the Executive Life fraud (an old fraud from the French business against Californians) will cost millions to the taxpayer, and we're finally looking for an agreement with the American justice. So we will want to show a reconciliation.

The most plausible thing that'll happen, IMHO, will be some friendly symbol, that would look good on TV without costing a dime.

OTOH, if the US agrees to give us some reconstruction contracts, and oil-exploitation contracts, it is very possible we send troops there. But that's my old theory of "give us some loot and we'll come".
The price had risen when the death toll of US soldiers became high. It has probably lowered now that we can hope for a demoralization of the Iraqi guerilla.
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 17:57   #5
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
Quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
France has no balls. I certainly hope Russia does.
Once again, we surrender
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 17:59   #6
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
Chirac and France were all against the Iraqi rebuild as long as their boy that they backed (Saddam) was still in competition. Now that their side got captured and is most likely permanently out of power they want to try to join the other side.
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 18:02   #7
Dis
ACDG3 SpartansC4DG Vox
Deity
 
Dis's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
I'm not sure I buy that. Surely France didn't believe Saddam had any hope of regaining power did they?
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
Dis is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 18:05   #8
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
Quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
I'm not sure I buy that. Surely France didn't believe Saddam had any hope of regaining power did they?
All right, this go back over this. We're talking about FRANCE................
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 18:06   #9
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
Dissident:
I don't think so. It is possible our diplomats believed that the US would weasel out and leave an unfinished job in face of the opposition, but I can't imagine they believed Saddam could come back. Especially old and heirless as he is.
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 18:08   #10
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
If America and the Coalition had backed down its entirely conceivable he could have come back. He has the bulk of his military still buried in the sand and the bulk of his money stashed who knows where.

The Iraqis believed it.
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 18:11   #11
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
If the Americans backed off, the seeds of civil war would be already planted. Saddam would never have managed to unite a weaponed and hostile country (Shiites and Kurds) under his rule again. Besides, don't forget much hardware and many soldiers have been wiped out during the war, and the Kurds can be emboldened by their victories in the north.
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 18:17   #12
Shi Huangdi
Emperor
 
Shi Huangdi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 4,213
Quote:
[SIZE=1]

OTOH, if the US agrees to give us some reconstruction contracts, and oil-exploitation contracts, it is very possible we send troops there. But that's my old theory of "give us some loot and we'll come".
The price had risen when the death toll of US soldiers became high. It has probably lowered now that we can hope for a demoralization of the Iraqi guerilla.

That would be excellent for the international status of both nations if that could be arranged, and we could forget the past debate and work together to fix the Iraq situation. The French Foreign Legion are some of the best troops in the world and could definitely play a huge role in crushing these guerillas.
__________________
"I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer

"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand
Shi Huangdi is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 18:23   #13
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
I think its just a little bit hypocritical for a lot of these supposed "free market" conservatives saying France and Germany shouldn't be involved in reconstruction. Is some silly grudge more important than possibly wasting tax payer dollars with Halliburton? I guess it's obvious where the administration's loyalties are. The "free market" ideology takes a backseat to political kickbacks and no-bid contracts.

I also think it's hypocritical to ask France to cancel the Iraq debt when the US refuses to cancel debt from other third world countries. I think France should cancel the debt, but I won't blame them if they don't. And the US certainly has no right to ***** and moan considering it won't cancel it's third world debt.

After the capture of Saddam, Bush has a chance to put petty grudges aside and make a move to gain more international support. If he blows it, it will be just another failure on Bush's part.

So basically, I agree with Shi.
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 20:03   #14
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
BTW, I forgot to mention that the Six coming months are campaign time in France. We'll have 3 elections until June, and every politician is on the lookout to get an opportunity for votes.

Any major action taken by France in the coming months should take this fact into account. These are the first elections since the arrival of the right to power in 2002, and the government is increasingly unpopular here. Chirac may try some stunt about Iraq to raise the right's popularity. After all, Chirac has never been so popular as when he opposed war back in February.
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 20:06   #15
Bereta_Eder
Settler
 
Bereta_Eder's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 65,535
Maybe it will be like Germany where Shroeder won the elections, despite economic problems, by promising no action in Iraq.
Bereta_Eder is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 20:13   #16
Whoha
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 Morgan
Emperor
 
Whoha's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Posts: 3,700
Guys, why shouldn't Saddam have come back to power, we cut and ran after a single bombing in Lebanon, we cut and ran in somalia? Why would france have not made the bet that we would once again cut and run?
Whoha is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 20:14   #17
MrFun
Emperor
 
MrFun's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,595
I'm surprised other Americans have not demolished the Statue of Liberty yet.
__________________
STFU and then GTFO!
MrFun is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 20:24   #18
Dr Strangelove
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dr Strangelove's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: USA
Posts: 3,197
The ones most likely to do that are the very ones least likely to know who built it.
__________________
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
Dr Strangelove is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 22:12   #19
Lefty Scaevola
lifer
Emperor
 
Lefty Scaevola's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Posts: 3,815
Re: USA and France to reconcile?
Quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Do any of our French posters have any ideas on what France might be willing to do? Forgive the Iraq debt?
That depends on how much evidence the USA finds in Iraq about how the debt was acrued.
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Japher: "crap, did I just post in this thread?"
"Bloody hell, Lefty.....number one in my list of persons I have no intention of annoying, ever." Bugs ****ing Bunny
From a 6th grader who readily adpated to internet culture: "Pay attention now, because your opinions suck"
Lefty Scaevola is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 22:55   #20
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
yeah Lefty... maybe they will find out the French gave Saddam WMD components...

I can just see Donald Rumsfeld now... "Those evil old Europe bastards gave Saddam WMD's!!!" despite the fact he was the Reagan administration envoy who met with Saddam to iron out agreements for US corporations to sell WMD components to Saddam.

I hope that Bush attacks France for that... one more thing to call HYPOCRISY on...
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 23:35   #21
Shi Huangdi
Emperor
 
Shi Huangdi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 4,213
Sig Updated.
__________________
"I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer

"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand
Shi Huangdi is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 23:44   #22
Space05us
King
 
Space05us's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:35
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,709
Quote:
The ones most likely to do that are the very ones least likely to know who built it.
no kidding.
Space05us is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 23:56   #23
Kuciwalker
Deity
 
Kuciwalker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
I hope that with Saddam captured we'll find out more about any deals between France and Saddam's regime...

... come on, you know there had to be something going on, else why would they be so adamant about protecting him?
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
Kuciwalker is offline  
Old December 14, 2003, 23:56   #24
Kuciwalker
Deity
 
Kuciwalker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
Quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Sig Updated.
I'd use it too, but I already have one Sava-quote in it
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
Kuciwalker is offline  
Old December 15, 2003, 00:29   #25
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
Quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
... come on, you know there had to be something going on, else why would they be so adamant about protecting him?
Of course we dealt with him. We're the world's third weapon exporter after the US and Russia. It's obvious we have clients scattered around the world, and it's obvious we don't only have the nice kids on the block in our shop.

And you know what more incredible? You too!
Your country too had deals with the Saddam regime, if only because you cannot exactly act as if a 30 million inhab country didn't exist for 12 years, especially when it sits on a sea of oil.

To "discover" the deals between France and Saddam's Iraq will be about as interesting as to "discover" that Rumsie went all smiles to Saddam some 15 years ago. It feels dirty, but the whole international diplomacy is dirty.

One of the many reasons France rejected war so adamantly was that the Saddam regime had a huge debt towards us, and we feared his toppling would cancel the debt. In all their postwar handlings with France on the issue, the US and the Iraqi council raised the debt issue, threatening or announcing to cancel it.
There's a very simple reason why this debt is important (even for France, who cancelled many debts in the past). That's because the debt is huge. Before GulfWar1, we sold throngs of missiles and chemicals to Saddam, and even a nuclear reactor! Of course we want the money.

Is it dirty? Definitely, that's clearly nothing to be proud of. But then again, past the moralizing PR, nobody can be proud of anything in Iternational Relations.
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old December 15, 2003, 00:33   #26
Kuciwalker
Deity
 
Kuciwalker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
I think it would be awesome if we cancelled the debt. The irony is wonderful.
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
Kuciwalker is offline  
Old December 15, 2003, 00:34   #27
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
Quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Before GulfWar1, we sold ... a nuclear reactor! Of course we want the money.
Take it up with the Israelis.
DinoDoc is offline  
Old December 15, 2003, 00:44   #28
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
Quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
I think it would be awesome if we cancelled the debt. The irony is wonderful.
Will you, or did you, cancel the one they had to you?
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old December 15, 2003, 00:50   #29
Alexander's Horse
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
Alexander's Horse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:35
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: In a tunnel under the DMZ
Posts: 12,273
The French say "kiss my butt" and everyone takes that as a sign of reconciliation?
__________________
Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer.

Look, I just don't anymore, okay?
Alexander's Horse is offline  
Old December 15, 2003, 02:49   #30
Shi Huangdi
Emperor
 
Shi Huangdi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 4,213
Well we know France used to sell weapons to Iraq. Before '91, that's no big deal. The key will be discovering if France continued to arm or support in anyway Saddam after Gulf War I.
__________________
"I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer

"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand
Shi Huangdi is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:35.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team