Armies, one attack/defend value or one per unit?

Vlado · December 15, 2003, 06:51

How does it work? Is it three (or four) units attacking in a row but still with their own values or is it one army that attacks with the highest attack value? If you for example have one spearman in your army with two archers is the part of the attack when the spearman is animated still done with two as attack value(the archers attack value) ?

Edit: Typos.

UnityScoutChopper · December 15, 2003, 12:05

Hi Vlado,

as far as I understand, each unit attacks with its own attack value. In Conquests, that attack value is raised somewhat as a bonus for being in an army, but other than that, the archers attack with 2, the spearman with 1, etc.

USC

Vlado · December 16, 2003, 03:24

So why would anyone want to have mixed armies then. Wouldn't that make the army more or less neither rather then either of?

Dis · December 16, 2003, 03:53

that's why I don't do mixed armies

.

The theory is you could make an army good on defense as well as offense. But you end up with a weaker offensive army.

I try to pick units that have some defense value. Cavalry, swordsmen etc. I did lose a cavalry army in the Napolean scenario (on defense), but I don't often lose armies.

bongo · December 16, 2003, 08:48

I have rarely used mixed armies myself, except for adding a fourth unit to old armies after building pentagon.

Could be useful if you had like two pikes and a med.inf in an army, a tough defender who could take out weaker targets with low losses. Apart from that it is of limited use.

Theseus · December 16, 2003, 16:41

Ahem... (I'm sure a number of people have been waiting for this

)

ARE YOU GUYS CRAZY!!!

The strongest unit goes first in each battle, with its proportiate share of all remaining hps.

Additionally, with C3C, Armies get a 1/6 bonus (1/4 later).

Let's look at an all vet 2xSword+Pike Army:

That means on defense, the Pike always goes first, initially with the ability to use ALL 4 hps, with defense of 4 before modifiers. It will likely get to elite pretty quickly, btw.

On offense, the two Swords always go first, so that's effectively 8 straight hps, at 4 attack. This Army now moves 2, and has blitz.... in all likelihood you WILL eat up a lot of its hps, and thus having the extra oomph on defense is invaluable.

As pointed out, upgrading with more advanced units is a superb way to leverage all of those hps over time.

CRAZY!!!

Edit:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=46197

Arrian · December 16, 2003, 16:56

3x Sword:

4.3.2.

2x Sword, 1x pike:

The swords get +1 to both attack and defense (4.3) and the pike gets same (2.4)?

-Arrian

vmxa1 · December 16, 2003, 16:56

Yup what you say is correct Theseus, I would only mention that you will not get to do a lot of defending. The AI will avoid you like the plague, unless it can kill that army. IOW you will likely see onyl a token attack on th earmy, unless they send lots of unit. In that case the army may get killed. I am presuming that only very ancient units at that time, not an army still around for late middle ages.

Theseus · December 16, 2003, 17:00

Didn't I recently post somewhere the example from the Maya epic game I was fooling around with? The Iroq attacked with 20+ Knights?

Sarxis · December 16, 2003, 17:30

If early game, I'd probably do a mixed army, two attackers/one defender, backed with support units. Later, I'd specialize more since I'd have more armies from MTradition and just more units all around for O and D support. But I'd still keep the ratio of O armies to D 2 or 3:1.

This, of course, vs. a human player.

pauli · December 16, 2003, 17:37

ancient army? how about 3x ancient cavalry? 4/3/3 blitz - and 15-18hp

Theseus · December 16, 2003, 17:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
3x Sword:

4.3.2.

2x Sword, 1x pike:

The swords get +1 to both attack and defense (4.3) and the pike gets same (2.4)?

-Arrian

As far as I know, yes.

Dis · December 16, 2003, 17:57

I still don't like adding pikeman to my armies. what can I say. I play for offense- not defense. It should be noted this is against the computer. The only defense you need is a good offense.

Arrian · December 16, 2003, 18:15

T - I have a 2x med inf, 1x musket, 1x infantry army in my current game. Proud?

-Arrian

MrWhereItsAt · December 16, 2003, 23:12

Quote:

Originally posted by pauli
ancient army? how about 3x ancient cavalry? 4/3/3 blitz - and 15-18hp

/me has found a kindred spirit

Aren't they beautiful?

And for simplicity's sake, an Army is like a single unit with the hp of as many units as you have in the army, and with the best attack and defence factors of units in the army modified in C3C by an extra point or two.

Hmm... is that simple, or simply complicated?

vmxa1 · December 17, 2003, 01:41

AC army of elites with 4x. Sigh it has been awhile since I had any ivory.

bongo · December 17, 2003, 04:48

Too bad, SoZ can be a lifesaver when you're short on iron and horses. Or if you just want to do some heavy warmongering

The ancient cavalry army is effective long after ancient cavalry itself become useless(well, they are still useful for fighting resistance, military police duty, CF-preventing and taking out weak units.)

Arrian · December 17, 2003, 10:53

AC army of elites with 4x. I don't think I've ever gone so far as to have the pentagon in the ancient age.

24hp of 4.3.3. Ha. Ha-hah. Ha-hah-ha! MUWAHAHAHA!

/me writhes on the ground, screaming The PPppppoooOOOwwwwWWeR!

-Arrian

vulture · December 17, 2003, 11:32

Just to make Theseus' point about mixed unit armies more explicit:

Consider an army of two medieval infantry (one elite*, one veteran) and one pike. You might think this has 9 hp worth of MI and 4 hp worth of pike in it. But the hps are shared out amongst the three units for each battle - so you get attacked, and the pike defends, losing 4 hp (for the sake of argument). Then a second attack comes in. Rather than having the MI defending, the army redivides up its 9 hp, so the pike still has 3 hp left. So you get to use the pikes higher defense for more than its 4 hp. Likewise, you get to use the higher attack of the MI for more than the 9 hp of MI you put in the army. This all falls apart if your army gets beaten in the first combat, but that isn't that common.

So a 2 MI, 1 pike army is very nearly as good as a 3 MI army on attack, and significantly better on defence.

pauli · December 17, 2003, 14:32

arrian - actually, with pentagon but without academy, it's 5/3/3.

with the academy, it's 6/4/3, but if you still lack horses by the end of the industrial age, you've got bigger things to worry about than the a/d of your ancient cavalry army.

actually, maybe you don't...

Cookie Monster · December 17, 2003, 14:52

Theseus you make a strong arguement for mixed armies!

I have only recently dabbled in mixed armies and am quite satisfied with their performance both on attack and defense.

CiverDan · December 17, 2003, 21:55

There is one think to be careful of when using a mixed unit army. Dont attack when you might use all the HP of your attackers. Otherwise u will find yourself attacking with your pike/spear and will likely have a dead army. I have used horseman armies to attack walled cities on a hill with spears and lost 7 HP (not that improbable). If I had a spear (or impi which would make more sense and were Zulu) i am coming close to attacking with the Impi, not that good.

MrWhereItsAt · December 18, 2003, 01:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
AC army of elites with 4x. I don't think I've ever gone so far as to have the pentagon in the ancient age.

24hp of 4.3.3. Ha. Ha-hah. Ha-hah-ha! MUWAHAHAHA!

* Arrian writhes on the ground, screaming The PPppppoooOOOwwwwWWeR!

-Arrian

I have.

The last two games of C3C I finished. Guess how I finished them? It's the same reason I had 4 AC armies by 1AD.

Dis · December 18, 2003, 03:50

I still don't think mixed armies are all that useful. Esp. in the early game. They could be more useful in the late game if there are lots of stealth units around. You'd have to see how I use my armies to see why. I rarely leave them by their lonesome in a defenseless position.

bongo · December 18, 2003, 04:15

Good point, I rather have an army of strong attacker protected by defensive units(even better, a devensive army) than having a mixed army that is stronger on defence but slightly weaker on offence. I'd hate to loose an army cause I have to do the last round of attacking with a pikeman.

Oh well, in the end it is a matter of style of play, I guess.

Cookie Monster · December 18, 2003, 10:50

When attacking in force along a broad front offensive armies only backed by some single unit defenders are the order of the day.

When lashing out in desperation at an opponent when resources are limited a mixed army has the best chance of causing havoc and surviving to tell about it.

For me the latter is what I do only because the beginning of the game is a struggle for survival. It is only in the late game that I can afford to have luxuries such as the all offensive army and can attack an opponent with great numbers.

chequita guevara · December 18, 2003, 11:37

I haven't been able to upgrade my units in my armies in C3C.

vondrack · December 18, 2003, 13:29

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I haven't been able to upgrade my units in my armies in C3C.

When the folks talk about 'upgrading armies', they actually mean 'adding another (strong) unit'. Units in armies were/are not upgradable (design decision to prevent armies from being overpowered).

vmxa1 · December 18, 2003, 13:38

AFAIK you still cannot upgrade units in an army.

Armies with mixed units are very useful at the ealriest part of the game. If I get a MGL from say an archer and I make an army, I often have to fill it with mixed units as I do not have enough on hand to do otherwise. I can't wait for troops to get there fromfar away.

I take that army of say sword/archer/spear and now I can take down that town with only one or two defenders with no losses.
Without the army, I still take the town, but I could suffer losses. Since I will probably not have a massive number of units, I do not want to take losses here or I will soon not be able to press the war.
I admit, this is not a common scenario, but I have run into it a few times. They attack me, I do not get a leader and I am hard pressed to attack them. I get that leader and make an army and now I am able to do some real damage.
This is not a scenario for times, when I start a war and have the troops to back it up. It is more for when I am not in such great shape and would have preferred they have not jumped me. If I was strong, they would not have started the war in the first place.

Cookie Monster · December 18, 2003, 15:19

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
AFAIK you still cannot upgrade units in an army.

Armies with mixed units are very useful at the ealriest part of the game. If I get a MGL from say an archer and I make an army, I often have to fill it with mixed units as I do not have enough on hand to do otherwise. I can't wait for troops to get there fromfar away.

This is not a scenario for times, when I start a war and have the troops to back it up. It is more for when I am not in such great shape and would have preferred they have not jumped me. If I was strong, they would not have started the war in the first place.

Exactly