Yang is powerful! - Page 2

Chaos Theory · December 20, 2003, 22:39

Yang can afford to get HFs (and everything else) a little while after Fusion Power, which isn't much above Env Econ/Plan Econ. At that point, he can go all specialists in all his ICS cities and just explode with energy. Of course, a builder faction will likely get Fusion Power much earlier, but Yang can catch up pretty quickly once he gets it.

After buying several facilities, you might notice that your nutrient intake is huge and your industry rating is insignificant. At that point, I gradually switch Yang over from Police/Planned/Wealth to Police/Green/Knowledge or even Frontier/Green/Knowledge. At this late point I forfeit most of Yang's advantages, but they've outlasted their usefulness.

Blake · December 21, 2003, 01:08

If you think Fusion Power is anywhere near Env.Eco then you dont beeline to env.eco very often :\ They are pretty much different tech trees.

My Hive pure-builder & crawlerless strategy goes like this:
The settings are asummed to be directed research and not tech stagment.
First tech arc is:
Cent.Eco, Biogenetics, Social Physch, Ethical Calculus, Gene Splicing, Ecological Engineering.
During this stage I am building formers, CP's, I will get Eco.Eng at about the same time as my first SP is completing (~year 2160), it's a choice of WP or HGP, the WP mostly for extra former power because the borehole req has been reached, altough raise land is very good for small islands. Until now I've planted forests, with eco.eng I start the full-scale terraforming, boreholes, condensors, rivers everywhere. Builder Yangs power is in Formers because he can support lots of them, not in teching quickly to ind.auto.
Next tech arc:
Ind.Base, Ind.Eco, Env.Eco
It will also be nessecary to beg/borrow/buy/steal or god-forbid research another tech at this stage. Int.Int isn't a bad choice for police.
Now it's ~2200 and I start building tree farms, tech rate and income get a healthy boost from the boreholes that have trippled in energy output.
My terraforming will be about 60/40 forest and borehole/condensor, each borehole matched with a condensor.
Final early tech arc:
Inf.nets, Plan.Nets.
Switch to PLANNED (Atlast, at around 2220!). This may seem shocking, but it's not as if your bases need the growth or industry, energy has been the limiting factor. I might do a GA pop-boom now, or might wait for ind.auto and hab complexes.

This build ends up with a shockingly strong industrial base, and around 5 turns per tech. Next research targets (all very close) will be things like int.int for police, ind.auto for wealth&habdomes (remember I dont whore crawlers) cyberethics for knowledge, and then either off to Airpower or Fusion power.

Also forcing a before TF's is essential because 4 boreholes per base creates a lot of potentional ecodamage. Mass production&destruction of preserves allows the construction of genejacks and minerals goes through the roof. And Hybrid forests can be built at any stage post-TF's because boreholes will be providing plenty of minerals and energy.

Obviously crawler whoring will make it stronger, but only in allowing you to replace condensor workers with specialists - the fast tech to eco.eng & boreholes gives every bit the mineral boost as mass crawlers.

Enigma_Nova · December 21, 2003, 10:02

A crawlerless strategy is a good challenge, but I tend to pump the bastards relentlessly.
Think about it: Planned gives +2 Growth and +1 Industry (playing to Yang's strengths)
Wealth gets yang -1 Econ (effectively +1 energy at all bases bar HQ) and another +1 Industry
Police state == +2 Support

So basically you've got your police, and you're forming and crawling like crazy.

Normally you could simply probe someone for EnvEcon; your crawler and former fleet ensures that as soon as you research it you'll be in the $$$.

Blake · December 21, 2003, 19:02

I used to put a crawler on nearly every tile, I know the power of them. And for the Hive and many pop-booming factions they are hardly that nessecary. With good terraforming and fast restriction lifting you only miss the ability to 'Plonk' SP's, which vs the AI is as good as cheating.

You have to remember Vel's strat guide was written before the mystery of eco-damage was unravelled. With the ability to keep ED at 0 bases pumping heaps of minerals early in the game become much more valuable, and with the exception of mines most mineral tiles are best worked (that is, forests and boreholes). A forest/borehole strategy with just enough condensors to keep growing before HF's arrive is extremely powerful, it just didn't use to work because people didn't know how to survive the ecodamage, hence everyone abused crawlers and specialists - the so called energy strategy (also crawlers serve as a method to save up minerals for building SP's, but when your bases are producing 60 minerals rather than 10 it's a lot easier to build the SP's honestly)

Because crawlers are inherintely imbalanced there are many situations where it's absolutely better to crawl rather than work a tile, condensors, distant boreholes, kelp etc. However it's merely a game of optimization, not proper strategy. I don't do it, it's boring. And in younger days I saw way too many of the the fat little white ground-lice aka crawlers. I still use them with Morgan who needs to bee-line to ind.auto and is fairly weak, and Univ who's early tech brings him to Ind.Auto, but for the Hive and most pop-boomable faction I go crawlerless.

Chaos Theory · December 21, 2003, 21:41

No, I don't beeline for EnvEcon, though the beeline isn't that long. Most of its techs are important anyway (EthCalc, CentEco, BioGen, IndEcon, Psych, Indust). Therefore, by the time I have Fusion, I have most of the techs on the way to EnvEcon.

Also, I use crawlers as best I can, since many of my games are multiplayer.

I can't fathom why you don't pay the measly 40 energy and switch to Planned for NO PENALTY even if the upsides are meager, unless you prefer Green, or for some reason, Free Market. If it's simply because you don't have the tech yet, all I can say is that you should have an important level 2 tech long before 2220, if for no other reason than it allows you to probe for more techs.

Still, I'll try Yang without any crawlers whatsoever, with your tech plan, according to whatever settings you use, and I'll see how it goes.

Blake · December 21, 2003, 23:37

You misunderstand, I switch to planned the moment I get Planetary Networks, however I dont consider that a higher priority than getting Eco.Eng. If I'm playing Builder Yang, it will be on a Large or Huge map with mostly water; probably meaning no neighbours.
Getting probe teams to a target would mean 4 techs - Mobility, Flexibility, Inf.Nets, Plan.Nets. Even trading for some of them will massively slow down the tech to env.eco. Lets add that if you probe some "useless" techs your research will be even slower. And when you tech like Yang before env.eco the last thing you need is slower tech.

Morgan is an extremely useful trading partner, who will quite often cough up the useful techs of Ind.Eco (possibly by-passing ind.base) and Gene Splicing. Dee will also often come up with Ethical Calc, Gene Splicing and Eco.eng (unless she wanders down the path to Cent.Med). However both these factions are hive-friendly and will happily give up the techs you need without probe incentive. Unless you foolishly head to plan.nets and run planned, in which case your two best trading partners will hate your guts. Run Planned and give your only friends the finger. What a glowing endorsement

The other factions (Conquerors and Discoverers) dont research what you need and generally hate your guts, either because they are asses or hate PS (or both).

Chaos Theory · December 22, 2003, 05:48

I took Yang down your beeline and here are the results:

Faction: Yang
All factions: Original SMAC 7

Planet Settings: Average everything except 70-90% water
Rules: All victory, flexible starting position, everything else deselected, no crawlers, and Blake's tech plan

I landed on a modest continent, considering the water %, with a very helpful rolling-rainy tile near my landing site
My first pod yielded 50 energy, allowing me to switch to Police State immediately
Of course, my first tech is CentEco so I can get Yang's energy out of the cellar
It turns out that I can place my second colony pod on a river, within reach of a 2-1-1 tile. Furthermore, the next pod I popped put a monolith within my HQ's radius, boosting it greatly
2103 - 8 turns/tech, CentEco in 6 years
Next pods - energy resources and mineral resources (minerals on a rolling arid) outside my bases' radii
2108 - Got CentEco, 7 turns/tech, Psych in 7 years
Popped a pod, found nutrient resources on a flat and moist
2112 - Produced first colony pod, sending it to use the nut and min resources, starting my first former
2114 - Got Psych, 12 turns/tech, BioGen in 12 years, found mindworms in a pod...crap
2117 - Produced first formers, one from HQ and one hurried at a new base. Up goes the forest...
2119 - Tried a hasty attack on that mindworm with a scout... failed, but badly injured it.
2120 - Former in the open barely held off the badly injured mindworm. Almost got rather unlucky.
2127 - Got BioGen, 12 turns/tech, EthCalc in 11 years
~2132 - Good base sites are petering out, so I'm having core bases produce Rec Tanks while the formers improve terrain for more pods
2137 - Got EthCalc, 11 turns/tech, Gene in 11 years
2138 - The base near that min resource started the Weather Paradigm - projected to finish in 2158
2146 - Got Gene, 10 turns/tech, EcoEng in 10 years, gearing up for b-drones
2147 - Spartans (!) discover SotHB first
2148 - Without supply crawlers and with a small continent, my cities are running out of things to build...
2150 - Drone riots at my SP base, so I take the most expedient action - Nerve Stapling!! No other factions have even started any SP... On the dominance charts, Santiago is on top of tech and mil, and Miriam has the other categories, though Dee and Zak are still fairly high on the bar chart.
2153 - An AI finally starts a SP... but it's Morgan, who is pathetically weak
2155 - Got EcoEng, 9 turns/tech, InfoNet in 8 years since that was the best choice available. Condensors and boreholes started. The starting continent is about full.
2157 - WP finished thanks to nerve-stapled labor. A bunch of AIs finally started the HGP. With crawlers I could concentrate production and grab it, but I don't think I'll get it this time.
2159 - HGP started at my project base, for nothing better to do. Projected to be completed in 2175.
2162 - Got InfoNet, 9 years/tech, Indust in 9 years
2163 - First random mindworms, splattered them
2165 - Another random mindworm isle, this time damaged. I think someone's popping pods near me. First ecodamage (yay!)
2160 - First borehole finished
2167 - Both Lal and Dee find me. Since Lal hates me anyway, and he's weak, I shoo him away, whereas I sweetheart Dee and get a treaty at the cost of EcoEng
2171 - Got Indust, 9 years/tech, IndEcon in 9 years
2172 - Got the HGP
2174 - Spartans get the Command Nexus
2178 - Zak finds me and, like Lal before him, offers a pact in exchange for war with Miriam. Since she'll hate me anyway and Zak isn't that weak, I take the pact. It turns out Zak is strewn across an island chain and he has no level 3 techs or above
2179 - Got IndEcon, 8 years/tech, EnvEcon in 7 years. First fungal bloom!
2181 - First size 5 base, first specialist opportunity, but since I don't have PlaNets, I can't make librarians...
2184 - Miriam found me. She has lasers and synthmetal. Bother.
2185 - Got EnvEcon, 5 years/tech, PlaNets in 4 years.
2186 - Miriam has been put in her place by a synthmetal sentinal in a base pinning her expeditionary force. I'll kill off the unit eventually, but I have plenty of directions in which to build.
2188 - Pain in the ass Miriam sent another useless unit that needs containment until I actually get weapons. Incidentally, since she's running FM, every unit I pin screws up her cities more. Several tree farms are rushed to pump up my energy flow and get more clean mins.
2189 - Got PlaNets, 5 years/tech, IndAuto in 4 years. Switched to Planned since Dee wasn't being much of an ally. Started VW since I have so many net nodes, expected finished in 2206. Even if I miss the VW, I can switch production to the PTS.
2192 - Got IndAuto, 4 years/tech, Physic in 4 years. Switched to Wealth for insane industry, at the risk of losing the anemic Zak as a pactmate.

I stopped playing in 2192 because I had run your path and had become dominant, albeit only eventually. I'll try a game from the same start with my preferred tech path and see how they match up, but it's late.

Kody · December 22, 2003, 08:26

Quote:

My first pod yielded 50 energy, allowing me to switch to Police State immediately

Police state gives you more support and more police. However, I don't think you in need of more support and police in turn 1.

I feel that the energy credits should be put to good use rush buying units or facilities until you actually need the additional support or police. If you had waited a little before switching to police state, could have rushed your formers earlier?

Chaos Theory · December 22, 2003, 16:21

I think by the time I had formers capable of being rushed (10+ minerals accumulated), I had enough energy saved up to rush a few, since I had 10 + 50 - 40 + ~15 turns of energy, and it takes 19 to rush a former from 10 to 18. If I had delayed Police State to 2125 or maybe later, I probably could have gotten a few extra former turns, but before 2125 I think bases were starting to support enough to make Police State useful. As for facilities, I didn't start my first until 2132 or so.

In general, I wasn't real aggressive with spending. Around 2185, I had some 700 energy saved up. I just wanted to sample Blake's plan and see if I implemented it properly or really screwed it up, and I'll see how it does compared to what I had done with Yang.