AU mod: The Statue of Zeus

[lockstep]

The problem

(Partially derived from earlier thoughts by Dominae and alexman)

Normally, Great Wonders do not require any kind of resource. The only exception in vanilla Civ3 as well as in PtW was the Manhattan Project (which requires uranium), but this wonder is a special case insofar as it yields its effect (allowing the construction of nuclear devices) to every civ, not only the one that builds it. The other Great Wonders were basically available to everyone. Strategies to secure a particular wonder (besides rushing it with a leader) included

1. being among the first civs that had access to the required tech,
2. possessing a city with high shield production (at least 20 shields without the despotism tile penalty),
3. as a human player, using a palace or other Great Wonders as a deliberate pre-build while waiting to research/trade for the required tech.

In C3C, the new Statue of Zeus wonder - which produces Ancient Cavalry, a powerful 3/2/2 unit with +1 hitpoint, every 5 turns - requires ivory. Because luxury resources (unlike strategic resources) are not spread over the map, but clumped in certain parts of it, any player lucky enough to start next to ivory (usually only one, given C3C's luxury scarcity) has an enormous advantage. Building the Statue of Zeus if you can do so becomes a no-brainer decision, and Civ3 effectively turns into a game of dice. This especially screws up multiplayer games. Furthermore, the AI does not understand the value of either ivory or mathematics (the prereq for the SoZ), i.e. it is likely to trade excess ivory before the SoZ is finished, something a human player never would do.

Possible solutions

1. Remove the ivory requirement from the Statue of Zeus.
2. If you feel that the SoZ should require a resource at all costs, make it require horses, which are more evenly distributed on the map. (EDIT: This proposal is very unpopular because the SoZ is often regarded as 'a second chance if you don't get Horses'.)
3. EDIT: Increase SoZ's shield cost from 200 to, say, 300.
4. EDIT: Make the SoZ produce Ancient Cavalry only every 7 (instead of 5) turns.
5. EDIT: Make Ancient Cavalry somewhat weaker, e.g. by removing the +1 hitpoint bonus.

What do you think?

[Nor Me]

As I've seen pointed out before, they are possibly too many ancient wonders for the AI. The AI frequently puts too many cities on wonder construction and if they are enough players, they won't be successful in some of them.

Taking away the ivory requirement from SoZ makes this worse. At the moment an AI building it has a good chance of actually getting it so the above doesn't apply.



Will it make the human get the SoZ any less frequently? The statue needing ivory gives the human an advantage if they're near it but it may be so good that we'd put extra effort into securing it a lot of the time.

Making it require horses would help the human more. I wouldn't count on all the AIs with horses hooking them up in time.

There would be less chance involved but I don't think that's a good thing especially in single player.

[sabrewolf]

to me, SoZ is too powerful if you can get it and who can build it is completely random, depending on where you start.

also, the AI doesn't prioritize capturing the ivory resources more than any other luxury resource. and i presume, these cities (except if a core city) start building a number of basic infrastructure improvements, before going for the SoZ.

i'm in favour of toning down the ancient cavalry. a free gallic swordsman (which imho is now even more overpowered, now the price was lowered) every 5 turns is too much.

i therefor suggest you adding the idea of reducing the frequency of the AC output from one every 5 turns to something between 6 and 8 turns (16-50% less frequent) with my favourity number lying around 7 ronds per cavalry. so if there should be a vote, maybe my suggestion could be taken as optional point.

making SoZ more available but also weakening it a tad bit.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Nor Me
As I've seen pointed out before, they are possibly too many ancient wonders for the AI. ... Taking away the ivory requirement from SoZ makes this worse.

You are right that C3C's abundance of ancient wonders poses a problem to the AI. However, in case of SoZ's ivory requirement, the solution is worse than the problem IMO.

There would be less chance involved but I don't think that's a good thing especially in single player.

I'm all for some level of chance, e.g. regarding starting locations, huts, no. of civs you can contact early. OTOH, the Statue of Zeus involves too much chance for me.

Originally posted by sabrewolf
i therefor suggest you adding the idea of reducing the frequency of the AC output from one every 5 turns to something between 6 and 8 turns (16-50% less frequent) with my favourity number lying around 7 ronds per cavalry.

Good idea - I'll edit the first post to include it. (And I'll add the option to tinker with SoZ's shield costs of 200 - no wonder is cheaper at the moment.)

[Dominae]

I would like to see this change implemented in the AU mod (and in the stock version).

A Wonder as powerful as the Statue of Zeus should not be secured by a simple luck of the draw, before the game even begins. To put it bluntly: the stock version State of Zeus is strategically uninteresting, because you either can build it (i.e. your starting location is near Ivory), or you cannot. If you can, you do; if you cannot, you do not. In a majority of the "you can" cases, you will have no competition for it. Boring.

The main reason the designers had to include the Ivory requirement is that it's "realistic". IMO, good gameplay should win over realism every time.

Nor Me's argument about the AIs building too many Wonders is, I think, slightly off. It's true the AI spends too much time on Wonders in the Ancient era. But the behaviour that causes this is more or less hardcoded in the game, and there are already enough Wonders that it's unavoidable. Adding the Statue of Zeus will not compound the problem, and actually works to solve it: the Statue of Zeus is something more the AI can switch production to when it loses the race to another Wonder. Furthermore, it's not exactly a problem if each AI is competing for the State of Zeus (competing against each other and/or the human player), since it's a Wonder the AI uses exceptionally well.

I admit full well that removing the Ivory requirement from the Statue of Zeus is a "big" change; it would alter the character of the Ancient era significantly from stock. Although I'm usually against "big" changes, I would not at all mind seeing this implemented in the AU mod. On the other hand, I can live without it.


Dominae

[Jeem]

Zeus is possibly the most screwed wonder ever devised IMO.

Small fixes :-

1) Ancient Cav start as conscripts instead of vets (Elite ancient cav with only a barracks? GREAT idea Firaxis... )

2) Change the stats to 3/1/2

3) A combination of the above, maybe starting as regulars and 3/1/2 stats.

Drastic Fix :-

The SoZ can only be built by races that have NO Iron available (swap this with needing Ivory). As soon as the building player has access to Iron, Ancient Cav are no longer built (like with now if you lose the Ivory after building it).

This could go a long way to rescuing a terrible start and lessen the reliance on Iron on the early era. Whether it can be done in the editor is something I have no idea about.

If it can't, perhaps making the luxury requisites to build both Ivory and Silks (assume these ancient cavalrymen like to dress for the occassion ). This at least will put it into the 'rare' category and enforce a bit more effort for the human player to hunt down one of the two luxuries. As it stands, Ivory is getting on better than Iron as a strategic resource in the ancient era.

[Kuciwalker]

1) Ancient Cav start as conscripts instead of vets

Is this possible?

This could go a long way to rescuing a terrible start and lessen the reliance on Iron on the early era. Whether it can be done in the editor is something I have no idea about.

I don't think it's possible, though maybe with upgrades...

If it can't, perhaps making the luxury requisites to build both Ivory and Silks. This at least will put it into the 'rare' category and enforce a bit more effort for the human player to hunt down one of the two luxuries.

This might make it as rare as the IW.

[vmxa1]

I like the change to once in 7 or so turns. The cost in shields is not an issue in my mind as it will be yours only most of the time.
I just played where I had ivory and if it cost me more shields, it would only impact the time it took to build as no one else had Ivory. I had 5.

I sort of like the reduction in HP, but if it was lowered, I am not sure it would be of any value at all. A 2HP or 3 with a barracks unit is not so attractive. In many games at higher levels, the AI will soon have units that will not have that much trouble with the new weaker AC. They may become mobile shields only.

[geniemalin]

IMHO part of the problem is that the number is fixed (1 per 5 turns) no matter what the map size. I often play on Tiny or Small maps and the SoZ can be overwhelmingly powerful. OTOH on a Huge map with the capacity for large armies and multiple productive cities it wouldn't be nearly as good.

I do also agree the 3/2/2 with +1 hp is insanely powerful - more comparable to Knights than Horsemen.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Jeem
Small fixes :-

1) Ancient Cav start as conscripts instead of vets (Elite ancient cav with only a barracks? GREAT idea Firaxis... )

They don't start as vets, but have a bonus of +1 hitpoint. IMO, this is rather confusing - took me quite some time to realize that my 4hp Ancient Cavalry meant that I'd better build a barracks in the SoZ city.

I've edited the first post to include a 'tinker with Ancient Cavalry's stats' option.

Drastic Fix :-

The SoZ can only be built by races that have NO Iron available (swap this with needing Ivory).

This is not possible with the current editor.

[Jeem]

Too bad the editor can't make the lack of a resource an option. I think that would have been a pretty good game-balancing fix.

Making it require Ivory and Silks should not make it as rare as the IW - there will always be Ivory and Silks available somewhere, but the chances of Coal and Iron within the same radius are very small.

Good call on the extra HP. I knew I'd seen a few of the AI's 6 hp ancient cav running around.

[ducki]

No, no, no to horses.

If you ever have a game where you don't have and can't get to horses, you'll understand my stringence.

With C3C, I've had 3 games now where I had no horses and none within striking distance before mid-Middle Ages.

Making SoZ require horses would have meant an instant restart. As it is, all three of those times, I've had Ivory at least within striking distance. Also, you can trade for it.

Yes, SoZ is strong, but I don't think it should be changed. Free units should require a resource - doesn't KT require Iron?

My vote is to leave it as is. Maybe we should have a future AU game where there's no horses within range before Chemistry, but put Ivory in striking/superREXing distance and see if folks think it needs a change. Personally, I think it's one of those Resource-scarcity-sucks-but-at-least-I-got-SoZ/KT-so-I-was-able-to-stay-in-the-game Wonders.

YMMV.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by ducki
Free units should require a resource - doesn't KT require Iron?

No, it doesn't.

[nbarclay]

I thiink eliminating the ivory requirement would change the wonder's character too much. Getting rid of the extra hit point for ancient cavalry would leave the character of the wonder essentially intact while making it a bit less overpowering.

Nathan

[MrWhereItsAt]

A definite no to changing the resource requirement to Horses. The SoZ's biggest advantage for me, and doubtless for others, is a second chance if you don't get Horses. I have yet to get these rare buggers in 3 Conquests games so far before the Medieval Era/the first Civ conquest.

This is a tricky decision, tricker for me, as I have come to love my little ACav armies and the civs that they supply me with If forced to make changes, I would go for reducing the stats of ACavs, maybe to 3/1/2 or even as far as just being a Horseman. They would still be worth it if you are without Horses at all, or even if you had them it's a free 6spt towards a Horse every turn at a time that this amount is rather decent.

[bongo]

Are you sure the cost of the wonder and the frequency of which the ACs get built cannot be made map-dependant?

[MrWhereItsAt]

bongo, your post made me go and check.

Originally posted by geniemalin
IMHO part of the problem is that the number is fixed (1 per 5 turns) no matter what the map size.

Turns out this is correct, but we can change the frequency of which an ACav appears for ALL maps.

[bongo]

You would need different mods for different map sizes then.

Guess it would work but it will be messy

[MrWhereItsAt]

What would be so wrong with just reducing the frequency for all maps?

[sabrewolf]

different map sizes always makes a problem for balance.
- on gigantic maps, you can outREX even at deity.
- pyramis, ToA, GW, sun tzu's, hoover, etc. are more powerful the larger the land is.
- expansionist, commercial and scientific gain power on larger maps overproportionally.
- unit-spawning wonders (SoZ, KT) in fact are more powerful on smaller maps.

so i don't think we should tamper with different appearance ratios for different world sizes.... and if we do, then everything should be balanced out.

[Arnelos]

Just played a game at emperor level before I left on my trip where I had NO horse, NO iron, and the GREEKS next to me had the only sources of ivory. I knew I was sunk unless I took over the Greeks (who didn't have iron or horses, either, btw...) and got their sources of ivory to build the SoZ.

Playing Carthage (thank god!) I built up a force of Numidian Mercenaries and a very tall stack of catapults (without which NMs versus Hoplites would have been horribly ugly) and took over the Greeks. They finished the SoZ in Athens while I was invading, but I was lucky to take the city ONE TURN before they produced their first Ancient Cav. I started pumping out ancient cav myself. When I then took over the Egyptians and Romans, both with iron and horses, the game was well in hand.

Starting on the same continent with Greece and Rome and no sources of iron, horses, or ivory, even playing Carthage I would have had a rather significant problem by mid-game if I didn't claim that Greek ivory and the SoZ.

As others have argued, the ivory-based SoZ can offer a second chance when you realize there's no iron and no horses anywhere in sight, but at least ivory is.

Playing Carthage certainly helped in my game (even hoplites don't stand against stacks of 18 NMs and 12 catapults ), but the long-term situation might still have looked bleak if I didn't have the SoZ to then keep my military strong while the Romans and their iron were conquering everything else on the continent.

[Brundlefly]

I've played a game before where an AI civ is building SoZ without having Ivory. There is no way they could be trading for it either. Have you seen this?

[sabrewolf]

post the save, maybe someone will discover, why...

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Arnelos
As others have argued, the ivory-based SoZ can offer a second chance when you realize there's no iron and no horses anywhere in sight, but at least ivory is.

You guys make it sound like the purpose of the Statue of Zeus is to offer Iron-less and Horse-less civs a chance to keep up in military. This is simply not the right way to look at it.

The chances that: 1) you do not have Iron, AND 2) you do not have Horses, AND 3) you start close to Ivory, are certainly very low. Actually, the chances that you do not get Iron or Horses are very low to begin with, and Ivory (being one of eight Luxury resouces) is not likely to save you that often on average.

Sure, it makes for a great story when the stars align in this way, but then it also makes for a great story when you get a SGL upon researching Mysticism, and use it to rush the Pyramids thirty turns into the game.

What is far more likely is that: 1) you and your opponents have Iron, AND 2) you and your opponents have Horses. Then the addition of Ivory throws the balance of power way out of whack, because suddenly one civ can build a strong military Wonder and the others cannot. What decides this is the RNG when it places the starting locations and assigns them to various civs.

IMO such a power shift should not be up to the RNG, but to good gameplay.


Dominae

[Stuie]

Thinking about it, I don't see why the ivory requirement is such a big deal. Typically there are multiple, dispersed sources of a luxury item throughout a continent/island/pangea. That means most Civs on a continent will probably have access (or can "obtain" access) to at least one source of ivory. No worse than trying to grab iron or horses. Thus all of the Civs on one continent will have a shot at competing for SoZ.

By the time contact is made with other land masses, chances are you are well into the Middle Ages and Ancient Cavalry aren't going to make that big of a difference.

I'm for leaving it alone.

[sabrewolf]

the ideal situation for the SoZ would be if the ivory is between the starting location of 4 civs which all try to place their city there. if you get it then (and can defend it), it's a power shift due to good gameplay, as dominae expects it.

but - so often it's either right next to, or really near to ONE player's starting location, so there won't be a big fight about the ivory.


so IF there's a not-really-deserved power shift, then it shouldn't be too extreme... which would emphasize the every-7-turns-idea.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Stuie
Thinking about it, I don't see why the ivory requirement is such a big deal. Typically there are multiple, dispersed sources of a luxury item throughout a continent/island/pangea. That means most Civs on a continent will probably have access (or can "obtain" access) to at least one source of ivory. No worse than trying to grab iron or horses.

In my experience, luxury resources aren't as dispersed as strategic resources, and only one or two civs will have access to any given luxury.

Thus all of the Civs on one continent will have a shot at competing for SoZ.

In that case you might as well drop SoZ's ivory requirement because it doesn't make any difference. As I see it, ivory does make a difference, and makes for worse gameplay.

[bongo]

Originally posted by Dominae
The chances that: 1) you do not have Iron, AND 2) you do not have Horses, AND 3) you start close to Ivory, are certainly very low. Actually, the chances that you do not get Iron or Horses are very low to begin with, and Ivory (being one of eight Luxury resouces) is not likely to save you that often on average.

Sure, it makes for a great story when the stars align in this way, but then it also makes for a great story wh.....
Dominae

Funny you mentioned that, cause that exactly what have happened in ALL my games so far.


(well, it's more like my only game actually... )

[nbarclay]

The fact that fewer instances of each luxury are available in C3C than were in PtW means that it tends to be a bit harder to trade for a luxury, and probably also that fewer civs tend to have a given luxury within their borders on multi-civ continents. Still, it seems by no means rare for at least two civs to have access to a luxury. For example, in the Emperor game Mountain sage posted, the Sumerians and I both had ivory available. In Dominae's Chasqui Scout game, the Dutch and Mongols both had access (and a sufficiently ambitious human player could have "obtained" the Mongols' source without a major war). In my current game, England and Russia (two AIs) both had access to ivory. Thus, with ivory required, the race is always limited but often not just a matter of if you have ivory, you are guaranteed the wonder whenever you get around to building it.

Are there strategic factors involved in the ivory requirement? Definitely.

1) How does the need for ivory to build the Statue of Zeus affect the priority of scouting? If ivory is available but you don't findi it in time, an AI might beat you to it.

2) If ivory is available but not near your core, how early do you send a settler to the high-corruption area where the ivory is located to try to claim it?

3) If an AI has ivory and you don't, do you try to trade for it, fight for it, let the AI build the wonder and try to steal it, or leave matters alone and hope the AI doesn't attack you during the time when Ancient Cavalry are at their most potent?

And so on. The fact that ivory is required can add a number of strategic dimensions that would not exist if it were not required or if a more widely available resource were substituted, dimensions that are perhaps most notable in that they are different from the issues created by other wonders. With no more than we've played C3C thus far, it is far too early to write off the strategic dimensions of that requirement as uninteresting.

I'm not saying I think the ivory requirement for the Statue of Zeus (or the Statue of Zeus itself, for that matter), was a good idea. But I find the current design sufficiently interesting that I do not think eliminating the ivory requirement is justified in the AU Mod.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Originally posted by bongo
Funny you mentioned that, cause that exactly what have happened in ALL my games so far.

(well, it's more like my only game actually... )

Interesting response. I feel you've done a good enough job of discounting your point of view, so I have nothing further to add.


Dominae