Question relating to "sentry"-command

Khalim · December 22, 2003, 11:20

Please, i do have an urgent question.

We have a discussion if the "sentry"-command gives the same defense-bonus towards units as "fortify" does.

We are not able to find any information about that topic.
The patchnotes only say the command has been added in 1.17f, but there is no information about a bonus.

I´m sorry if someone did ask this before.

If you know it, please respond. Thanks alot.

Cookie Monster · December 22, 2003, 11:31

I'm pretty sure you do not get any defensive bonuses for sentry command. It's only purpose is to "wake" units that have an enemy next to them to remind you to watch out.

At least that's my interpertation.

Khalim · December 22, 2003, 11:41

You might be right, and that is, in fact, my point of view too, cause in Civ1 12 years ago there was no bonus to sentried units.

When i stated this argument someone said "This is a completely new game and you cannot compare it to a program released 12 years ago"

Maybe one could (or already had) launch/ed a test using the editor ? I´m so lazy ...

Is there any official statement from the developers ?

Cookie Monster · December 22, 2003, 11:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Khalim
Is there any official statement from the developers ?

Not sure if there is one. This is a good question though.

MrWhereItsAt · December 23, 2003, 00:30

The sentry was not in Civ as released, but was added due to feedback for the v1.17f patch.

I cannot claim to have tested (and I'm not GOING to

), but it seems logical to me that this sentry would be exactly the same as the old - units on standby until they see something move near them, and no combat bonuses.

Quote:

Additions v1.17f:
*Added Sentry command: y = wake whenever next to friendly or enemy unit(s) / shift+y = wake whenever next to enemy unit(s).

Khalim · December 23, 2003, 02:29

Well, we do think we have an answer here.

(please excuse my english, it´s not my native language. I hope you´re able to understand what i´m trying to say now

)

Someone created a scenario using the editor and gave a 1000% Defense Bonus (only to FORTIFIED) warriors.
i.e. defense value 10 if fortified. He used 10 warriors and sentried them.

He chose 10 archers (attack value 2) as enemies, closed up to the warriors, re-sentried the warriors after waking up (as you know it takes them until next turn to wake again) and attacked them with the archers while they were in "sentry"-mode.

None of the archers was able to win, they suffered a horrible defeat.

This proves, "Sentry" = "Fortify" IF units are sentried WHILE being attacked. If they awake, they lose the bonus, of course. But if you sentry them again, they´ll regain it. ( i know it doesnt make any sense because of the "fortify"-command, but we were discussing about "sentry")

Really a difference between older versions of Civ and Civ3. I was surprised, but it seems to be true.

Thanks for your suggestions, have a nice and successful day

MrWhereItsAt · December 23, 2003, 07:01

Wow - this could even be considered a bug by some, as who would fortify ever again unless they didn;t care that a unit came across their own?

And especially since the Fortify bonus doesn't kick in until a full turn after giving the order, this could be a bit dodgy. Unless this works differently in MP, then it is not quite so bad.

Snotty · December 23, 2003, 11:12

Good catch Khalim. I would never have thought of re-sentrying units.

You might want to put this in the bug thread in the conquests forum. The developers are paying attention there and might do something about it.

steven8r · December 23, 2003, 12:01

I'm not sure that this is a bug.

From Khalim's description, it seems that Sentry is essentially "Fortify until something comes near, then wake-up". If, upon waking, you re-Sentry the unit, it will again be Fortified until more movement next to his square. I don't think units already in an adjacent square count as 'movement'.

I doubt that an attack would count as movement because (if it fails) the attacker didn't actually change squares. Unless reinforcements come into an adjacent square, or the initial unit that caused the 'wake-up' condition moves to another square, then the "Sentry'ed" unit is still obeying orders.

It seems to make sense.

pauli · December 23, 2003, 12:30

i don't really see a bug here... someone should test, however, against fast movers. they can move into range and attack before the sentry should wake up.

(if a sentry, attacked by a fast mover, is considered to be fortified, then yes, this would definately be a good alternative to fortification in many instances)

Sarxis · December 23, 2003, 16:09

I don't see a bug either. And I 'sorta' assumed sentried units were fortifying also since they show the animation for it.

Snotty · December 23, 2003, 16:18

Sentry units will wake up if a enemy unit is next to them, even if the enemy hasn't moved.

As Mr WIA points out, the potential bug is to do with fortifying taking time to give its bonus. Khalim said the warriors got the bonus despite less than a full turn having passed. It depends who came first in the turn order I guess.

gunkulator · December 23, 2003, 17:23

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
And especially since the Fortify bonus doesn't kick in until a full turn after giving the order, this could be a bit dodgy.

Hmm, you don't get the fortify bonus until after a full turn. Has this been tested? Civ2 had a visual indication to show when a unit was in the process of fortifying (F in the shield) and when it actually had the bonus (the little boxy fort thing).

Jaybe · December 23, 2003, 18:16

It just costs 1 full movement point to fortify, so if you don't move a slow unit should get the fortification bonus upon sentry command. This is according to a Firaxian in the early days of PTW.

I will often put units near a potential front on sentry to draw my attention there if there is any activity.

Sarxis · December 23, 2003, 18:40

That's what I thought- as long as you had a move point left (or fraction of one), you could fortify/sentry.

Snotty · December 23, 2003, 18:46

I think Im confusing myself with the pbem fortify all bug.

gunkulator · December 23, 2003, 18:52

In Civ2 it really did cost you a full turn to fortify. If you had any movement left on turn 1, you could hit the F key and on turn 2, you'd get the bonus. The point being that there was a turn in there after you gave the command when you could be attacked without the bonus. If you clicked on a fortified unit, it had to start all over again to regain the bonus.

Civ3 lets you can fortify and activate numerous times within the same turn. I always assumed the bonus was instantaneous - not that it's much of a bonus anyways.

Kuciwalker · December 23, 2003, 19:00

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Wow - this could even be considered a bug by some, as who would fortify ever again unless they didn;t care that a unit came across their own?

And especially since the Fortify bonus doesn't kick in until a full turn after giving the order, this could be a bit dodgy. Unless this works differently in MP, then it is not quite so bad.

The fortify bonus kicks in as soon as you give the command.

EDIT: others have mentioned this