***Oh FuK the Secret's out***

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Jamski
Ditto - I like the new Enigma much more.

I'm quite a nice fellow when I don't feel attacked.
Not that anyone sees that side of me much...



The system HAS produced good results, that is true, but it has done so at great cost :

• The over-reliance on Kody.
• The exclusion of those for whom Kody's playing style is too complicated.
• The demand that people "do jobs to help Kody".

Obviously this may be the most efficient way to play a demo game - to let the most able player, or at least the most methodical player, run the turns, with little imput from the rest of the team - but its not much fun for those sitting on the side watching.

Perhaps we could use the very inefficient method of the last demo game and give people regions of bases to control. They would send the orders for thier 3-5 bases to Kody, or whoever was playing the turn, who would simply repeat them. Govenors would be elected, and replaced if people thought they were crap. Of course, our faction wouldn't do so well...

We be PWNED by CyCon OMG!eleven

-Jam [/QUOTE]
YES dammit that's the very reason I wanted to overthrow the ACPSG.
Too decentralised, with positions not thinking about how they are intertwined.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by HongHu
It will take me many hours to try to understand and reponse to all the comments here in this thread.

Let's hope my duality comments haven't confused anyone. My mind works in a more abstract and complex way than most are farmiliar with.

But my understanding from reading the last few posts has led me to think that people are tired of fighting now.

I'm not. I like to fight. But Octavian X had a plan for peace, so I'll see where this gets us.

Please let me know if there is anything I missed when I try practising this newly learnt "skimming" skill.

That would be just about everything I type.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Jamski
HongHu is one of our most valuable members.

Thank you dear Jamski.

I also must restate my belief in the equality of all Hive members.

• All Hive members have an equal right to open the turn save.
• All Hive members have an equal right to state an opinion.
• The votes of all Hive members have equal weight.
• Noone may be forced to leave the Hive, except they break the rules of the game.
• All Hive members have an equal right to be informed of all desisions.
• All Hive members have an equal right to take part in all discussions.
• All Hive members have the right to a private life, and in spending time away from the Hive, they do not forfit any of their rights.
• All these rights are the same for all Hive citizens, and are not dependent on thier level of participation, past, future or present, but are extended to all Hive members freely. They are not a reward for good behavior.
• No Hive government may take away these basic rights.

-Jam

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Mead



I CONSIDER IT AN HONOR TO BE AMONG THE FIRST TO COME TO HONG HU'S DEFENSE.

I, speaking for myself, would consider it a disastrous loss if Hong Hu left the Hive. I do not presume to speak for others.

I will be very disappointed if Hong Hu leaves. I will feel let down if Hong Hu leaves.


Mead

Comrade Mead, I greatly appreciate the trust and support you have on me. I feel very special. I may need to cut down my activities from now and then but I will give you my promise that I will never leave the people I love again.

[Enigma_Nova]

Wise Enigma
Replying to HongHu
Replying to Angry Enigma

Originally posted by HongHu
You are right Enigma. Life is formed by each of our own choice.

But what's our choice formed by, other than the lives we lead?
I dunno how people get their values, actually. Because to decide your values you need some method to judge, but you can't judge without values (!) .
There must either be inherent values or inherent judgements that we pick up biologically or something (I dunno - Life is a circular argument that has a start and an end).

I had to love the team even if this means overspending myself for it.

Sounds Gaian of you. I am always concerned about people that put others first... perhaps because I fear that my own flaws will rub off onto them, and I would not like the guilt of having my incompetence harm another.
Blech now I'm doing the others first thing!
Oh well - it's not your style to think about letting us down, so I'll have to find a way that you feel you have not 'failed' in your quest to keep our spirits high.
But bear in mind that we will debate and we will bicker. It is human nature.

"One man can know the truth. Two men can only argue."
^^^ HIGHLY SIGGABLE ^^^

But the choice was made, and I have to accept its consequences.

And learn from it, hopefully, but when experience dictates who we are is a farce most of us will misinterperet the experience!
Then again that's how you perceive your lessons learnt.
I wonder how you'll alter your opinions to avoid letting us down, based on how you see what this has done.
I would, as always, see this as an opportunity for men to work for themselves but you'd rather it be another way.
So how about we both work for ourselves -and- have concerns for others?

This is an excellent analysis. We need to let everybody do what he can do best and what he enjoys doing. It sounds to be is the best starting point if we want to figure out what structure the team should have in the future.

Later I countered my own argument.
I presumed the virtue of independence, then later questioned it, and found that some people do not prefer to act as themselves or for themselves, but rather as part of a team.

In other words we should cater to the abilities, preferences AND values of others. While an individualist society would probably work, you'd be a notable exception in how you try to support the team. Plus (from arguments above) it would fly in the face of reality to ignore our group instincts, even if my own are quite small.

Just how do you cater to the individual values of a man that wants to side with a group? Good question. That's one of the contradictions in the human form - we want to be ourselves but we also like to be a part of the group around us.
In that case, we must allow people to be part of a group without changing who they are!

Surely they will adapt to keep the group happy (as you have done), so the point may be moot, but an ideal system would appeal to both HongHu's desire for team spirit and Enigma's desire for a pack of lone wolves.

Again you are right Enigma. I do not see anything wrong in the three statements you presented.

They are viewpoints and as such can be neither right or wrong; every person has a viewpoint, and you cannot say any one way of seeing things is better or more correct. You have to use your own values to judge, and you may judge wrong!

I have boasted that I am open minded, but I have to admit that one can always learn to think from a new perspective.

But of course not all people want to learn, and there are other ways to learn too.
Surprisingly enough I learnt about alternative viewpoints from introspection - with myself roleplaying a different persona.
Many ways to see, many ways to think; many ways to learn and many ways to feel.
To know them all is hard, to understand them all is worse. To work with them is harder still, and to accept them all in a working system?
Let's just say that Enigma likes to Dream.

Yes your wisdom (as well as that of others) has greatly enriched me. I appreciate this. And this is exactly why I have come here.

I am a LOT wiser than I let on.
mainly because I go into an obscure defense mode,
partially because I am unsure of my conclusions,
partially because I don't want to give people a base to attack me,
slightly because my thoughts may confuse them
and finally because it's wiser to save my energy for something I can change.
Of course no-one believes them and with the personas I portray I wouldn't bloody well blame you.

I'm here to flex my mental muscle, of course. But that's not to say that learning is dead. Maybe I can learn new ways to learn?
Or perhaps, in learning my learning, I can learn of myself in a new light unclouded by perceptions.
To see myself for what I am, blunt and tactless, with honesty and dignity - AND not to be mad at myself for who I am - is the next mission I take to reforming myself.
But of course, I still aim to extend my wisdom outwards to the world, to stop the mistreatment of children. Because how can you justify owning an encyclopedia in your head if you're just going to take it to the grave with you?
Well, some people can, and it works for them.
But selfishness... does not work for everyone.

My understanding is that in a Communism society because the productivity is so high and the resouces and products are so abundant,

Anyone wanna call dibs on refuting this? It's too easy...

The "communisitic" countries are not really in communism yet, they just have it as their goal.

Enthusiasm / Laziness. Every philosopher in history is crippled by having his or her own way to see the world.

Resources ARE limited dear Enigma. It is the first principle in your Economics 101.

What's the limited resource here?

Sigh. I have already tried that. I quitted the team in November for ... I was planning not to return until after that ... Well after about couple weeks or so, tass contacted me and asked me to vote to dissemble this demo game since the game was practically dead. I told him that I couldn't do that for I love it too much.

Oh no! PWND by laziness!

That's when I decided to come back and help him. I have tried my hardest. I did A, I did B, I did C, D, E, and tried to F.

Thereby making you an excellent candidate for G through Z.

At that time Jamksi was focused on the Dungeon of Apolyton, you were occupied to coup all positions in ACPSD (),

And I got ****ing OWN3D too.

I am very happy that I have all of you again.

Well I'm not sure. More people sure do complicate matters, and you were about to lose Jamski and I, should this prosecution result in some form of bannage.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Jamski

Of course, one who works has more value and may be more respected but they do not become a better class of citizen by doing so.

You do realize that you are "classing" them right here dear Jamski?

[Snowflake]

Double post. Sorry.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Jamski

I would happily play a turn at any time.
-Jam

Not "anytime" perhaps? At least not when you have a party.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Voltaire

The reasons for which you hold that democracy failed seem mistaken, democracy failed because of lack of participation.

I must say that Chairman has stated the painful truth. Of course we could give it another try, but there is no need to deny the truth.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova

That's exactly her moral dilemma. She hates to let her in-team down.

Don't worry for me, dear Enigma. I'll live.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Octavian X
Please, everyone, calm down. Let these personal attacks stop: It's obvious this is getting us nowhere. If you have a personal problem with someone else, work it out in private at the very least. If we are to continue to stand as a united team, this needs to stop now.

With a little clearminded thought, allow me to make a few neutral observations.

1. Democracy failed. We had a case of too many people taking positions they didn't care to work for. Jobs weren't done by the people who were supposed to do them.

2. The shadow government failed. People felt they were being ignored. Even if it was an effective administration, those without the time or skill to contribute on the level of this ministry demanded openness. By moving discussion away from the public, even fewer were encouraged to participate.

We've gone from one form of government to an opposite, and neither have worked. They were strong points to both, though.

Because a democratic government did give a feel of openness, those who could only contribute little did do so. The shadow ministry was a tool to encourage in-depth planning when others were unwilling, and gave power to those who were willing to work.

These lessons in mind, I will go on to propose that we eliminate all sense of government in the Hive. This does include dissolving the Central Continuing Committee, removing it's Chairman from power, and abolishing the People's Court.

It is clear that this faction has always been run by those willing to take responsibility to actually do something for the Hive. Those who historically have had any sort of power were those willing to step up to the plate and actually do something.

How would we run the Hive, then? Call me crazy, but it seems to me that the best way to do things would be:
1. discuss something.
2. do it.
We don't need any sort of government. We can talk things out amongst ourselves, and then just do it. The governments we've created all inevitably have some sort of weak point. They've all, and continue to, hinder the best way to run the Hive, the way we've always done it.

In my opinion, that solves the problem. People would be free to contribute at any level they so wished. Everyone has as much say in this process they want.

Another piece of evidence? I point to the Gathering Storm Team of Apolyton's PTWDG, of which I am a proud member. The original administration basically, and unoffically, dissolved itself. A few groups formed to allow people to discuss specific aspects of the game, but that was about it. The six or seven still active players (myself not included) simply discuss possiblities, and then take action. No polls, no middlemen, no government telling anyone what to do. And things get done.

In short, we get rid of any sort of government (though we could keep an unofficial one just for RP). If someone wants to do something, they do it, so long as it's generally agreed that he's taking the best course of action.

Of course, it's possible that's all idealistic thought that'll never work.

My point is, stop this fighting. If you want to respond to anyone else's negative comments from this point onward, just don't. We're not going to resolve this issue by fighting like this. Take it to private conversation, and let's get on with the business of running this faction.

Comrade Oct has many good points. I would like to second him.

Regarding government, not sure if no government will be the solution though. Wasn't it what we were having for the last month? We didn't have any government. So "the six or seven still active players (myself not included) simply discuss possiblities, and then take action. No polls, no middlemen, no government telling anyone what to do. And things get done." Wasn't that what we just had?

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
But what's our choice formed by, other than the lives we lead?
I dunno how people get their values, actually. Because to decide your values you need some method to judge, but you can't judge without values (!) .
There must either be inherent values or inherent judgements that we pick up biologically or something (I dunno - Life is a circular argument that has a start and an end).

Very good topic for meditation. I have lots thoughts about this too but I will try not to bore everybody with it.

Sounds Gaian of you. I am always concerned about people that put others first... perhaps because I fear that my own flaws will rub off onto them, and I would not like the guilt of having my incompetence harm another.

No nobody really put others first. I love to love and love to be loved but that's because I love to love and love to be loved. Not because others want me to love them and I put others first ...

But bear in mind that we will debate and we will bicker. It is human nature.

Sure. What fun is there if we all think alike.

"One man can know the truth. Two men can only argue."

This reminded me something I read in a comic book (yes comic book ) about democracy. The guy said that forcing the minority to accept the majority's decision is doomed to foster hatred in the minority. When the group is small and the participants are friends who trust each other the relationships can be mended and the group can still work as a group. With a larger group with no history this will lead to failure of the system. I feel that it is stunning how much truth is in it.

I am a LOT wiser than I let on.

What's the limited resource here?

Are you pretending here dear Enigma? The answer is time, energy, ability and intelligence. I'm sure your wisdom and intelligence are unlimited (), still you wouldn't say that you have more than 24 hours will you? (Or perhaps you really do?)

Thereby making you an excellent candidate for G through Z.

I know.

Well I'm not sure. More people sure do complicate matters, and you were about to lose Jamski and I, should this prosecution result in some form of bannage.

I know. I will treasure every minute I still have the two of you.

[Jamski]

Seven in a row HongHu

I agree wholeheartedly.

Thankyou, they are good principles I thought.

-Jam

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by HongHu
No nobody really put others first. I love to love and love to be loved but that's because I love to love and love to be loved. Not because others want me to love them and I put others first ...

Your intentions are noble but perhaps your efforts are misdirected.
You may well want us to love you, but by doing all jobs some of us worship you or see you as competition.
Likewise, having us worry about your own welfare is a nice way to distract us from our loving ways.
Best to follow your own agenda and let people love you for what you are, for what good is the love of others if you lose the love of yourself?
(Aye, I learnt THAT one the hard way.)

This reminded me something I read in a comic book (yes comic book ) about democracy. The guy said that forcing the minority to accept the majority's decision is doomed to foster hatred in the minority.

This is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of Democracy, and try to work with Omnarchic systems (Where each man has some power to lead).

You can only be wise when the wise reduces to the obvious.
At first I thought this statement was wise...
But now, to me, it's plainly obvious.

Are you pretending here dear Enigma? The answer is time, energy, ability and intelligence.

We're competing over these resources?
I didn't notice that my time was on the stock market or my intelligence was on eBay. :P

I know. I will treasure every minute I still have the two of you.

*Answer of indifference*
But if you're out for the love thing I won't bother being in your way.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Jamski
Seven in a row HongHu

-Jam

Hmmm only seven huh? It almost took me all day. Should have counted more than seven.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova

Your intentions are noble but perhaps your efforts are misdirected.
You may well want us to love you, but by doing all jobs some of us worship you or see you as competition.
Likewise, having us worry about your own welfare is a nice way to distract us from our loving ways.
Best to follow your own agenda and let people love you for what you are, for what good is the love of others if you lose the love of yourself?
(Aye, I learnt THAT one the hard way.)

I know I know. But this is what I am. Sorry to disppoint you.

At first I thought this statement was wise...
But now, to me, it's plainly obvious.

Yea.

We're competing over these resources?
I didn't notice that my time was on the stock market or my intelligence was on eBay. :P

Your time and intelligence may not worth a dime on the stock market or eBay, but my time and my intelligence do have their value.

But if you're out for the love thing I won't bother being in your way.

Sorry. Can't. I was made that way.

[Jamski]

I was made that way.

Thankfully

-Jam