Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 1, 2004, 11:41   #1
ducki
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?Apolyton University
King
 
ducki's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
Posts: 1,495
Ducki Does C3C at Emperor
Civ3 Conquests 1.12 BETA
Warpstorm's Watercolor .biq
Edit(I just realized this might be problematic, since it's a scenario biq. If so, is there something I can do to un-Warpstorm it for you guys?)
Standard Size, everything else Random.

I didn't intend this to be my posted Emperor game; I was merely showing my wife the Watercolor mod and it came up Spain with a lake, a cow, and wine.
I've been greatly enjoying Spain of late, so I took it for a spin. It's turned out to be very odd, I think. Anyway, here's the save, 4000BC screenie to follow, then a rundown of where I am and how I got there with a current save followed by a current screenie.

I'm not sure why, but I'm doing far better than I thought I would. Maybe some of you pros can tell me why.

Oh, for those that weren't around or didn't follow my Regent and Monarch threads, you can take a look to see how these went in the past. Basically, I post progress reports, screens and saves - anyone that wants to play along for comparison or whatever is welcome to, but my main goal is to get assistance and advice from everyone. Then I make my own decisions, often explaining why. If you have advice, please let me have it, but more importantly tell me why.
This will be my first full Emperor game - I've played a few up to 6 or so cities just to know what to expect from the AI.

Ducki does Regent
http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...14#post1380414
Ducki does PtW Monarch
http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...33#post1436633

Now, on to the show.
Attached Files:
File Type: sav ducki_emp_spanish4000bc.sav (37.9 KB, 35 views)
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos

Last edited by ducki; January 1, 2004 at 14:01.
ducki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 1, 2004, 11:42   #2
ducki
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?Apolyton University
King
 
ducki's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
Posts: 1,495
And here's the start location.
If you want to play along for comparison, stop reading here to avoid spoilage.
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	ducki_emp_spanish4000bc.jpg
Views:	715
Size:	33.2 KB
ID:	60764  
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
ducki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 1, 2004, 11:43   #3
ducki
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?Apolyton University
King
 
ducki's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
Posts: 1,495
Pottery 100%
Warrior-Worker(thanks Aeson)-Warrior-Settler-Warrior-Settler-Granary(or Warrior)-Warrior(or Granary) - something like that.

After Pottery, beelined for Philo and got it!!!
Traded it around and chose Monarchy for the freebie. I know some of you think that's an exploit or "dodgy", but I think if the Diplo-phone is available to me, it's fair play. The AIs would do the same, I bet.

Anyway, I had 2 turns left on a settler and a border-town Temple, so I waited two turns and switched to Monarchy and ignored the optionals, going instead for Currency.
Monarchy I held onto for a good while, then traded for Mapmaking and Code of Laws, and later for COnstruction, vaulting me into the Middle Ages...
...first!
I've actually had tech parity for 5 or 6 techs now - is that normal?
I am ahead by Currency on everyone and more than that on 2 or 3 others.

I was able to Temple-steal the Celt's only potential source of Iron and a few turns later Lugudnum flipped to me just as I was about to complete a Temple next to it. That got me a second luxury. I was trying really hard to expand out to a lone Ivory, but the Maya's border expanded before I could get there(IIRC).
I also settled close to Babylon's capitol to nab horses.

I grabbed a 1-tile Island off Babylon's coast after losing a sea-going Curragh and plan to send that Galley out there. Since everyone is on my pangea, maybe I can nab an extra island just for my vacation home. I'm pretty much out of "acceptable" places to settle.

I've bought 2 or 3 slaves as part of tech deals, I've met everyone.
Only 1 or 2 wonders have been built, both by AI, one of them the Colossus, so I fear there may be a cascade soon.

I'm working on the Hanging Gardens, but wonder if I should just nab Mausollos to be "safe". I'll be devastated if I lose all those shields.

My inter-city roads are passable but not great - there's a few "extra" moves that need to be fixed. My military road network desperately needs improving - if I had to get to my border to defend, I'd be in trouble. Tile improvements are ok, not great. Thanks to a recent post by Dominae, I remembered to irrigate the grassland cow.
Attached Files:
File Type: sav ducki_emp_spanish775bc.sav (102.4 KB, 11 views)
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
ducki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 1, 2004, 11:45   #4
ducki
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?Apolyton University
King
 
ducki's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
Posts: 1,495
And here's the screen for that last save, 775BC.
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	ducki_emp_spanish775bc.jpg
Views:	699
Size:	101.8 KB
ID:	60766  
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
ducki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 1, 2004, 11:52   #5
ducki
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?Apolyton University
King
 
ducki's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
Posts: 1,495
Now then, the questions.

Why am I, even if only barely, in the tech lead this early?
Why didn't Brennus get that Iron?

More practially, do I:
... try to wait out the Hanging Gardens build, or just settle for Mausollos?
... try taking some AI cities now or wait? I'm only weak to the far off Aztecs, everyone else I'm either Average or Strong, and Brennus, as mentioned, has no Iron.
... try to squeeze a cruddy town in west of Pamplona to grab silks or just plan on getting there with Knights?
... bring the Galley home, grab a settler+spearman before exploring that oddly large Sea to the east of my island, or explore first and not risk losing those shields?
... Research Feudalism, hoping Babylon will get Monotheism putting me closer to Knights?
... Start all over because this is apparently a fluke game and I shouldn't be doing this well?

Let's hear from all you old-timers, pros, and experts.
(P.S. Theseus, I have a Viking emp. save that you might like. Looked challenging, but when I showed the watercolor mod to my wife, I just couldn't pass on this start.)
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
ducki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 1, 2004, 13:42   #6
steven8r
Prince
 
steven8r's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: of Central Texas
Posts: 561
Well Ducki, here are some thoughts:

I have absolutely no idea why you're in the tech lead. Possibly because of the contacts that you've made? I consider myself lucky if I'm only an Age behind everyone it techs.

As to why you snagged the Iron from the Celts, it looks like the Iron is only 1 tile from your city. It is 3 from Entremont. Or, are you asking, 'Why didn't Brennus settle nearer those Mountains?' In that case, I don't know that either.

Looks like you've REXed very well. You've planted 9 cities and Culture-Fliped an additional one. You've got fairly good infrastructure, but I think it needs improvement.

Looks like West is a good place to start expanding. As you mentioned, there's Silk, and even further West, near Irroquois lands, looks like some unclaimed Wheat. That might be a little far off, but not too soon to start thinking about it.

It looks like the Celts are fairly weak. Entremont is large, but the other cities are smaller and there's not too many of them. Alesia has Dyes, AND is already connected to your road network. If you strike, strike the Celts and strike hard.

Just my two cents worth.

BTW: You've become my new 'Emperor Game Idol'. I aspire to start a game and play as well as Ducki. Ducki The Emperor's Emperor!!!

Steven
__________________
"...Every Right implies a certain Responsibility; Every Opportunity, an Obligation; Every Possession, a Duty." --J.D. Rockerfeller, Jr.
steven8r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 1, 2004, 14:23   #7
Catt
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton University
King
 
Catt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California - SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,120
Quote:
Originally posted by ducki
Why am I, even if only barely, in the tech lead this early?
Because you played it very well, employing shrewd researching and trading tactics.

Catt
Catt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 03:12   #8
Cerbykins
Warlord
 
Cerbykins's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 265
2nd era by 775BC is what freaks me out :P
Might be the scenario, but I doubt it. Let's face it, I just don't get that sort of tech speed. Parity and lead yes, even on my latest Monarch game. Sure as heck not THAT fast, even exploring

Is Emperor THAT big a jump?
__________________
It's all my territory really, they just squat on it...!
She didn't declare war on me, she's just playing 'hard to get'...
Cerbykins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 04:46   #9
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally posted by ducki
Thanks to a recent post by Dominae, I remembered to irrigate the grassland cow.
Excellent! Now I noticed you put a Mine on the Grassland Wines; if you had put Irrigation there instead, you would have had +5 Food per turn in Madrid.

I'm glad you're giving Emperor a shot. Good luck!


Dominae
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
Dominae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 09:55   #10
ducki
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?Apolyton University
King
 
ducki's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
Posts: 1,495
I never even thought about irrigating that one, Dom. I am in desperate need of shields in both Madrid and Barcelona. I'm racing really hard to get Leo's, now, after getting the HG.
If I get it, I'm upgrading everything to Knights and Muskets and eating someone for lunch.

I just checked my last screenshot. I need to post another screen and save, but I finished off Brennus, denied Feudalism to the Aztecs, prompting a war in which I saw 1 sword, 1 archer, and 1 spear. Sued for peace once my alliance with Inca(threw in a free Luxury, thanks Catt - or was that someone else recently?) ran out - I didn't feel like going that far to fight just yet.

Anyway, look for another report later today, after I get to play a few more turns and the kid takes a nap.

I'd still like some of you guys to try playing this one a little bit to see if the AI was riding the "short bus" in this game or if I just got lucky or what. I don't feel I'm that good a player to be in this good a position - something had to have helped me out, a lot.
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
ducki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 10:14   #11
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 16:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
The starting position is a complete 4 turn settler factory. Irrigate the cow and the wine, mine the two shielded grasslands and one unshielded and keep at least one forest in the city radius (while chopping the others to speed the granary). Let then the city (guarded by 2 warriors for happiness) float between size 4 (0% lux) and 5 (10% lux, micromanage! Even if it hurts!), churning out settlers every 4 and workers every 2 turns. You will outexpand the AIs easily.
Harovan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 13:58   #12
CerberusIV
lifer
C4WDG United Dungeon DwellersC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
CerberusIV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: on the Emerald Isle
Posts: 5,316
The tech lead doesn't seem that outrageous. I just started an emperor game (I try one from time to time) as Scandinavia.

Random map turned out to be archipelago with 3 other civs on my landmass. I got enough space for 4 cities (the neighbours have 3-6 each) mostly surrounded by marsh or jungle.

I would normally have given up by now BUT...

I beelined Philosophy and got it first, trading Alphabet and Writing for the early techs along the way. Mapmaking was the most expensive and useful free tech I could take so I did. THEN I got a scientific leader from it!

The Pyramids for only 4 cities in poor terrain or the Great Lighthouse. The Lighthouse methinks.

I have contact with all 7 civs and some other islands to expand to. 5 movement galleys are cool!

Apologies but I'm not trying to threadjack, just to say that you can stay in the game at emperor if you tech trade hard enough.
__________________
Never give an AI an even break.
CerberusIV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 17:55   #13
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 16:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
Quote:
Originally posted by CerberusIV
I beelined Philosophy and got it first, trading Alphabet and Writing for the early techs along the way. Mapmaking was the most expensive and useful free tech I could take so I did. THEN I got a scientific leader from it!
Sometimes luck awards the brave. I played around with demigod recently, drew Byzantium and an Archipelago, which was really a distributed Pangaea with lots of small straits and land bridges, so I got contact to all civs early and could keep myself up to date with tech whoring and own research, even though my terrain was really shitty. When Currency was the last mandantory tech left in the ancient age, I thought I go for Literature instead. Voilà, I got it and there was an SGL! Guess what wonder I rushed?
Harovan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 18:29   #14
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
Sir Ralph that is what we call "clean living". To bad you can't count on it.
vmxa1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 18:34   #15
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
I just played this game up until 775BC as per ducki's first screenshot (see below for mine). I wanted to see if this really is a flukey Emperor game, and maybe provide ducki with a few tips here and there.

As Sir Ralph pointed out, the starting location is perfect for a Settler pump. All you need to do is figure out the best way to get to a 4-turn pump, while thinking about expansion, research, etc. I decided to go "no military" for the first part of the game, as follows:

1. Madrid (capital city):

Warrior
Worker
Curragh
Granary
Settlers until 775BC

2. Barcelona (second city):

Worker
Worker
Granary
Workers until 775BC

3. Toledo, Santiago, Pamplona (other core cities):

Barracks
Warriors/Workers

4. Seville, Murcia, Zaragoza, Valencia (outer rim cities):

Temple (via poprush)
Catapults

---

I think one of ducki's big "mistakes" in this game was not exploiting the Grassland Wheat and Wines just West of the starting location to create another +5 Food per turn pump city. With one city producing Workers as efficiently as possible under Despotism, and the other doing the same for Settlers, all other cities can more or less focus on other things (like military).

With 3-tile spacing, I grabbed just as much land as ducki yet have more production centers. The other civs did not appear to prioritize Culture very much, as my borders spilled over onto at least two Luxuries and Horses that the AI had "claimed" for itself (I love how the AI places its cities with resources in mind, but then neglects to build cultural improvements to exploit said resources in the outer tiles of city radii).

Regarding research, I did the same thing as ducki early on: Pottery, Writing, Philosophy. The Curragh that I built got me Contacts with everyone pretty fast, which is why I managed to achieve tech parity at Writing. Philosophy netted me Code of Laws, and with that the tech lead.

(I would like to take this moment to again voice my opinion that the free tech at Philosophy is too powerful in the human player's hands at difficulties Demigod and below, and makes Deity a whole lot easier when it works. Forget it on Sid.)

After Code of Laws I proceeded to Republic, but realized half way through that my 30 Warriors were going to cost me a lot of upkeep under a representative government. Thumbs up to ducki for seeing the big picture with respect to the changes in Conquests and opting for Monarchy instead.

As you can see from the screenshots, at the same time in the game I'm two turns behind ducki in research. This, I believe, is mostly because of my reticence to trade techs around; when I play for a quick Domination victory (as I'm doing here), I prefer to keep the AI civs as backward as possible, especially those I plan to conquer first (on this map, pretty much all of them!). The game plan I've set up is beat up on all the AI civs (starting with the Babs), and this plan's execution would be severely hampered by too many Pikemen and Musketmen.

Wow, this has been a rambling post (or feels like it). Three conclusions:

1. This is not that weird/easy an Emperor game, but it is certainly not representative. It is easier than most due to a number of factors, including the poor AI starting locations, the Pangea map setting, and the fact that the other civs have constantly been fighting (in my game, at least). Again, it also underlines how powerful and realistic the Philosophy beeline is, even on the harder difficulties (Emperor and Demigod).

2. Nonetheless, I think ducki is on his way to being a regular Emperor-level player. It certainly takes some skill and know-how to ahieve such early tech dominance on Emperor.

3. The main difference between my game and ducki's is the level of micromanagement that went into crafting our empires. I feel that my game is a ways ahead of ducki economically, and I attribute it all to micro. So if you want to beat Emperor (or even Sid!), the answer is simple: spend more time during your turns!

ducki: feel free to ask me specific questions about my game, while it's all still in my head.


Dominae
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	emperor ducki, 775bc.jpg
Views:	607
Size:	167.1 KB
ID:	60845  
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

Last edited by Dominae; January 2, 2004 at 18:40.
Dominae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 19:46   #16
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 16:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
Well put Dominae. I'd like to add, that while you let Madrid float between size 5 and 6 to produce 4 turn settlers (probably producing 7+7+8+8 shields), the same effect is possible with one citizen less, using the fact that the shields of new laborers after city growth are added and with big surplus the laborers will be put on forests, thus producing 6+8+7+9 shields. I'm sure you know it, and in the shown situation with three luxuries connected you certainly can afford it, but in the early stage of the game, when luxuries are still rare, the way with one citizen less can save a lot of money, otherwise spent on luxury.
Harovan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 19:55   #17
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
Good point, Sir Ralph. I believe I did waste some Commerce early on with the Luxury slider to keep Madrid happy. Madrid completed its Granary at size 4 1/2 (15/20 Food), and it was just very convenient for it to start Settlers right away. Fortunately, I managed to access three Luxuries which, coupled with some Military Police, allowed for a 0% Lux slider for most of the Ancient era.

(Incidentally, Madrid's Shield output was 6+8+8+8, because there were just so many Bonus Grasslands around the capital. Luckily there were lakes and Fish to help avoid waste in both pump cities.)


Dominae
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
Dominae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 21:37   #18
ducki
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?Apolyton University
King
 
ducki's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
Posts: 1,495
-I notice none of your workers are stacked(well, there's one stack that looks like 2 or three). Is there a specific reason or is it just personal preference? I tend to have stacks of 2-5 settlers (edit: duh, I meant workers) early-mid Ancient and currently I have several stacks of 3, which road in 1 turn and 3 stacks of 6+, which mine in 1 turn and knock out jungle in 3 I think.
I'm not really that good at analysis when playing games, so is one more efficient?

-The whole "+5 food per turn pump" thing evades me, probably because I don't analyze deeply enough. Early on I still tend toward shields, and this seems to be one of my failings, so to speak.

- This:
Quote:
Luckily there were lakes and Fish to help avoid waste in both pump cities
Huh? This is probably related to the previous "question", but I try to get as many shields and commerce as possible while growing at a rate that doesn't kill my beeline if I'm streaking for Philo, and afterwards, I'll use Lux, but still tend towards shields and commerce.

I knew it was "too easy" to be representative. I also know that I played "well" but not great. I can always trust 'poly to show me the light, even if it doesn't stick the first 10 times.

If you play any further, watch Maya. Somehow, they caught up and passed me - probably going Education while I went Gunpowder. No matter, I currently and raping and pillaging the impudent Aztecs with Knights and Cavalry, grabbed his GLib city, picked up Education for free and am about to open a can of Black-hole-dark on Maya. I've spent the Aztec War years building nothing but Cav from my 4(?) barracks towns and nothing but Musket and Cannon/Treb from my non-barracks towns(between border-holding culture and happiness builds). All this during a Leo's triggered GA - confused me for turns, then I remembered I'd captured Pyramids and Mausollos from Brennus. Duh.

Anyway, this start is a good step up from Monarch - don't _plan_ on any wonders if you're new to Emperor, but hope for them. I'll try to remember to take a screenie and post a current save so Theseus can see how far I've come.
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
ducki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 22:11   #19
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 16:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
Quote:
Originally posted by ducki
-I notice none of your workers are stacked(well, there's one stack that looks like 2 or three). Is there a specific reason or is it just personal preference? I tend to have stacks of 2-5 settlers (edit: duh, I meant workers) early-mid Ancient and currently I have several stacks of 3, which road in 1 turn and 3 stacks of 6+, which mine in 1 turn and knock out jungle in 3 I think.
I'm not really that good at analysis when playing games, so is one more efficient?
You should road with 1 worker only, it's more efficient. Imagine you have three workers. Now look what they do in 4 turns:

a) together: move on tile 1 / road tile 1 / move on tile 2 / road tile 2

b) separate: each moves on his own tile / 1st turn roading / 2nd turn roading / 3rd turn roading

The result is, in case b) you have one more roaded tile. Remember a rule: Try never to move a worker over a tile without roading it. It is a lost move, because you will have to waste another turn when you return.
Harovan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2, 2004, 22:31   #20
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally posted by ducki
-I notice none of your workers are stacked(well, there's one stack that looks like 2 or three). Is there a specific reason or is it just personal preference? I tend to have stacks of 2-5 settlers (edit: duh, I meant workers) early-mid Ancient and currently I have several stacks of 3, which road in 1 turn and 3 stacks of 6+, which mine in 1 turn and knock out jungle in 3 I think.
Unless there's a Road there already, stacking Workers to improve a given tile is actually less efficient than sending just one to do the job. This is because each Worker "wastes" a turn entering the tile, a turn during which it is not actively working on a tile improvement. A little example (edit: Sir Ralph beat me to it!):

2 Workers are ready to fully improve 2 fresh Bonus Grassland tiles. Method 1 stacks the Workers, improving one tile then the other, while Method 2 sends a Worker to each tile.

Method 1:

12 Worker-turns to Mine 2 Grassland tiles
+ 6 Worker-turns to Road 2 Grassland tiles
+ 4 Worker-turns for both Workers to enter each tile
= 22 Worker-turns

Method 2:

12 as above
+ 6 as above
+ 2 Worker-turns for each Worker to enter its own tile
= 20 Worker-turns

Note, however, than although Method 2 completes the entire job using fewer Worker-turns, Method 1 gets one tile up and ready (that is, fully-improved) earlier.

It is always better for cities to work improved tiles, so although Method 2 is more efficient from a Worker-turn perspective, it is sometimes a necessary evil to use Method 1 in the early stages of the game.

If you want to really micromanage, you can get even fancier by sending Workers to Road a tile first, then send some more Workers to Mine/Irrigate it once the Road is complete (assuming they are within 2 tiles...2 to move, and 1 to begin the improvement). This eliminates the wasted Worker-turns due to Worker movement, but is rather time-consuming. In my screenshot you'll notice that all Worker stacks are on a roaded tile.

For now, my recommendation to you is to look at terraforming not in terms of static stacks of Workers, but in terms of Worker-turns. Stacks should split and merge.

Quote:
The whole "+5 food per turn pump" thing evades me, probably because I don't analyze deeply enough. Early on I still tend toward shields, and this seems to be one of my failings, so to speak.
The Food box sizes are all multiples of 20 (20 for sizes 1-6, 40 for 7-12, 60 or 80 for 13+). The Food box sizes with a Granary are half each of these numbers, or 10, 20 and 30 or 40 (I'm not sure which right now). These are all multiples of 10, and therefore 5 and 2 as well. If the Food per turn output of a Granary city is any of these numbers, your city will grow without "wasting" any Food (here, 'waste' means "lost overflow"...this is not the same as the game's definition of waste which has to do with Corruption). It's pretty easy to get +2 Food per turn growth in a city; any old Grassland tile will do. It's very rare in Despotism to get +10 Food per turn growth; typically it involves a bunch of Flood Plains and Wheat, which means very low Shield output.

What's left? Yup, it's that magical +5 Food per turn growth. Basically it's the highest growth rate that: 1) does not "waste" any Food, and 2) allows for a decent Shield output from other tiles. Put those two together, and you can create a 4-turn Settler pump, or a 2-turn Worker pump. Why 4-turn and 2-turn? Well, a Settler costs 2 population points, which, for a city under size 6 with a Granary, costs 20 Food...and 20/5 = 4 (for a Worker that costs 1 pop point it's 10/5 = 2)!

You can therefore see why it's always more efficient for your "pump" cities to be under size 6; basically it costs you less Food per Settler or Worker you build. Would you rather your Settlers cost 30 Shields and 20 Food, or 30 Shields and 40 Food?

Quote:
Huh? This is probably related to the previous "question", but I try to get as many shields and commerce as possible while growing at a rate that doesn't kill my beeline if I'm streaking for Philo, and afterwards, I'll use Lux, but still tend towards shields and commerce.
If a city is meant to be 4-turn Settler pump (as described above), it needs to generate 30 Shields (the cost of a Settler) in 4 turns. Typically this is 6+8+8+8 or 7+7+8+8. Any extra Shields are wasted every cycle, unless you can get 40 Shields every 4 turns, in which case you would have a 4-turn Settler/Warrior pump. It's bad to waste Shields, just as it's bad to waste Food (the latter is worse, mind you). The best way to avoid Shield waste is to find another tile that produce an equivalent amount of Food, but Commerce instead of Shields. Inland Coast (lake) and Fish tiles are examples of such.

Quote:
Anyway, this start is a good step up from Monarch - don't _plan_ on any wonders if you're new to Emperor, but hope for them. I'll try to remember to take a screenie and post a current save so Theseus can see how far I've come.
For now, I would recommend approaching Emperor with your Warmonger hat on. After you feel comfortable with that you can start thinking about being more of a Builder and securing Ancient era Wonders.


Dominae
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

Last edited by Dominae; January 3, 2004 at 02:07.
Dominae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3, 2004, 00:42   #21
ducki
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?Apolyton University
King
 
ducki's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
Posts: 1,495
Quote:
It's bad to waste Shields, just as it's bad to waste Food (the latter is worse, mind you).
Bad like corruption or bad like "wasted worker turns"?
I guess what I'm asking is, up-front game mechanic bad or efficiency-required-for-Emperor-level bad?

And I really didn't plan on getting any wonders. I just backed into the Gardens, really, then captured Pyramids and Mausollos, and once I was established, only then did I actually "pick" a wonder and go for it.

Thanks for all the great info everyone. Civ is like an onion... layer upon layer upon layer... and I appreciate the effort everyone here spends helping others get their eyes all itchy and burny.

Maybe I should restart until I get a militaristic civ and try again, or is Mil not worth much in Conquests?
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
ducki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3, 2004, 00:47   #22
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally posted by ducki
Bad like corruption or bad like "wasted worker turns"?
I guess what I'm asking is, up-front game mechanic bad or efficiency-required-for-Emperor-level bad?
The second one. It's something that's entirely up to you to avoid.

Quote:
Maybe I should restart until I get a militaristic civ and try again, or is Mil not worth much in Conquests?
Pick a civ that you like and focus on the basics in the Ancient era. Maybe a Medieval era UU would be best, since they're the easiest to craft a strategy around (and can really turn the tide if you're in trouble!).


Dominae
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
Dominae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3, 2004, 01:59   #23
Donegeal
PtWDG Glory of WarC4DG VoxApolyCon 06 ParticipantsC4BtSDG TemplarsSpore
Emperor
 
Donegeal's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Apolyton's Resident Law Enforcement Officer.
Posts: 4,811
Wow Dominae and Sir Ralph!

Thats some VERY good stuff there!

__________________
Founder of The Glory of War, CHAMPIONS OF APOLYTON!!!
Proud member of Vox Controli II: Civ IV MPDG
1992: Perot :( 1996: Perot :( 2000: Bush :) 2004: Bush :| 2008: Obama :(
Donegeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3, 2004, 11:13   #24
ducki
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?Apolyton University
King
 
ducki's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
Posts: 1,495
Alright, for the pro analyses:
My first instinct here would be to move the settler South(2) by 1 and SouthWest(1) by 1, allowing him to be riverside and to use both wheats without culture(it IS the Mongols, heh).

Then, again my first instinct would be to Mine the grass wheat and irrigate the FP wheat, but somehow I'm sure that's wrong. What would you do with this start and the lucky hut-settler?
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	improvewhat.jpg
Views:	560
Size:	77.3 KB
ID:	60884  
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
ducki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3, 2004, 12:17   #25
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
Ok, I have a couple of questions for you instead:

1. Why did you build a Settler before a Granary?
2. How much Food does an irrigated Wheat Flood Plains produce under Despotism?
3. With all that potential for Food down South, where will you get Shields?


Dominae
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
Dominae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3, 2004, 14:25   #26
ducki
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?Apolyton University
King
 
ducki's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Our house. In the middle of our street.
Posts: 1,495
1. I didn't -
Quote:
with this start and the lucky hut-settler?
2. Er... 5 I think. 4 before irrigation, no? Or is that a raw number that needs to be adjusted for the penalty? Argh.
3. And excellent question.
I did what I described above and was doing nothing but workers from Town #2, sent a settler up north to the unseen furs/forests and made a barracks town.

I really don't know the answers. I need a new feature to be added to C3 for all the folks like me that just can't remember all this stuff. I'd like the "Terrain Info" popup to have buttons so you can do a "What if I Irrigated here" and it would show numbers for your current government.
That would be neat.
Anyway, those are my answers, newbish though they seem. I just can't remember the numbers and rules.
__________________
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
ducki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3, 2004, 14:51   #27
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
Oops, I should have figured by the year (3500BC) that the Settler was from a Goody Hut (or I could just have read your entire post...).

Your instinct is correct about the Wheat Flood Plains: once irrigated, it produces +5 Food per turn all by itself! This means that the Wheat and Flood Plains are superfluous for that city...or are they? Since you need Shields as well as Food in your pump towns, those Forests look mighty attractive (they're even River-adjacent). The only problem is that they only produce 1 Food per turn, so if you work, say, a Forest and the Wheat Flood Plains (once irrigated), you're only getting +4 Food per turn. That's where you can use the other high-Food tiles to get beyond +5 Food per turn, and translate the surplus into Shields using Forests. To this end, I would put my second city just one tile South of where the Settler is in your screenshot.

Regarding tile improvements and the despotic penalty: remember what I posted for you earlier, that Irrigation on Bonus Food tiles is never a loss, except for Sugar (stupid Sugar).


Dominae
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
Dominae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3, 2004, 15:19   #28
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 16:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
Quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Regarding tile improvements and the despotic penalty: remember what I posted for you earlier, that Irrigation on Bonus Food tiles is never a loss, except for Sugar (stupid Sugar).
That's why I mine sugar first (2/2/2 tiles are nice, like irrigated furs on plains) and irrigate them eventually after I switch to a better government.
Harovan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 4, 2004, 09:26   #29
Enriquillo
Warlord
 
Local Time: 16:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Holland
Posts: 117
And I was thinking this is a strategy game, it's pure mathematics

I'm just too lazy to play without waste most of the time, I guess you've convinced that this is worthwhile doing at least during your first 50 turns or so.

You need every advantage you can give yourself , especially on poor maps.
Enriquillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 4, 2004, 10:09   #30
Donegeal
PtWDG Glory of WarC4DG VoxApolyCon 06 ParticipantsC4BtSDG TemplarsSpore
Emperor
 
Donegeal's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:27
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Apolyton's Resident Law Enforcement Officer.
Posts: 4,811
Quote:
Originally posted by Enriquillo
And I was thinking this is a strategy game, it's pure mathematics
Trust me, it is still a strat game. You can micromanage all you want, but if you can't strategize, its all for not.
__________________
Founder of The Glory of War, CHAMPIONS OF APOLYTON!!!
Proud member of Vox Controli II: Civ IV MPDG
1992: Perot :( 1996: Perot :( 2000: Bush :) 2004: Bush :| 2008: Obama :(
Donegeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:27.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team