Idea about balancing Statue of Zeus.

player1 · January 5, 2004, 08:27

Why not make wonder obsolete with Monotheism?

It goes well with flavor, and still leaves enough time to build good number of Ancient Cavalries.

If, on the other hand, this solution looks to harsh, maybe adding ability to upgrade Ancient Cavalry to Knights could be added to compensate.

Harovan · January 5, 2004, 09:21

This would make it literally useless in AI's hand, since it doesn't prebuild, but usually only starts it with the discovery of Mathematics (which isn't very high on the priority table), and unless it catches a lucky switch, mostly finishes it already close to the medieval age.

It would favor the human player, as he starts to prebuild it as soon as he spots ivory.

player1 · January 5, 2004, 10:28

Yes, that's true.
Although it's a key to determine how much late AI starts to build it.

If it's not too late, fix could actually work.

P.S.
Any other good suggestions for a fix?

Capt Dizle · January 5, 2004, 10:38

Is it broken? Who cares what the AI does, we are going to beat the AI anyway.

Why can't Firaxis program the AI to play the game if that is a problem.

This whole idea that you have to supress any concept that the AI can't use as well as the human sucks. It is why the game is so boring now.

Of course this idea wasn't too swift but still the Firaxis folks are trying for a change.

MotownDennis · January 5, 2004, 12:51

SoZ isn't broken, therefore no fix is required.

Fried-Psitalon · January 5, 2004, 13:22

It's only broken for a small percentage of the civ-playing population; SP/Emperor+ difficulty/Non-AP, where techs take a long time to research, and therefore the SoZ has time to crank out hundreds upon hundreds of units. The rest of the time: MP, Below emperor SP play, and any AP play, the SoZ isn't broken at all.

I respectfully submit that while the corruption problem affects everyone, "fixing" the SoZ for this subset of players is a bit much.

In the typical MP ladder community, the SoZ is sometimes not built simply because it goes obsolete too soon - or doesn't produce fast enough! The SoZ's "broken" nature is very situational to your playing style.

MotownDennis · January 5, 2004, 13:52

Sorry Fried, but I don't even think it's broken in these situations. My experience has been that in SP Emperor+ games, tech actually moves MUCH faster than at lower levels (at least for the AI). If your SoZ is able to crank out 100's of units before it goes obsolete, then you're probably way behind on tech anyway. If this is the case, the SoZ isn't going to save you.

Leave the SoZ alone people! This is one thing that doesn't need to be fixed.

alexman · January 5, 2004, 14:02

Quote:

Originally posted by player1
P.S.
Any other good suggestions for a fix?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=104629

Dominae · January 5, 2004, 21:22

Fried, MotownDennis is right. Fire up a SP Deity game and see for yourself how the tech rate compares to Regent.

In fact, the converse of your point is true: the Statue of Zeus is too powerful for the human on the lower levels, and too powerful for the AI on the higher levels (since they're the only ones that have a realistic shot at using it).

I would fix the State of Zeus by: 1) removing the Ivory requirement, 2) increasing the Shield cost to 300, and 3) taking away the +1 HP to Ancient Cavalry. Then we would have a perfectly balanced yet still interesting Wonder.

Dominae

MotownDennis · January 5, 2004, 21:35

I know there has been a lot of debate about the ivory requirement, but I rather like it. It adds a little more flavor to the game.

In fact, I wish there were other Wonders that required resources. Make it so that each luxury resource has a particular Wonder that requires it. This way, no one luxury resource is so much more important than any other. That's my only problem with the ivory requirement - it makes ivory THE luxury resource to have.

Aeson · January 5, 2004, 22:36

I think the problem with Zeus is more a problem with Ancient Cavalry. They are arguably the best military unit in the game, and they are allotted by the pure luck of having Ivory. You can build it on Sid if you get the right start, and can't build it on Chieftain with the wrong one.

France or Carthage can have them first tech into the game, most of the time you only need to research 2 techs (even if you have to trade for Masonry and/or Alphabet) and they are useful even when Knights show up. That gives you 40-50 turns most of the time, 8-10 AC, for 200 shields. Basically the best unit in the game costs ~20 shields? Then you get a decent unit for the next 40-50 turns, for free.

I say make them 2/2/2 or 3/1/1, no extra hp's, and it would be balanced.

Sarxis · January 6, 2004, 19:33

Quote:

Originally posted by player1
Why not make wonder obsolete with Monotheism?

Makes historical sense.

Tripledoc · January 6, 2004, 21:00

What if you programmed the AI that gets it to go for a 20000 cultural win?

Theseus · January 6, 2004, 22:25

Quote:

Originally posted by MotownDennis
If your SoZ is able to crank out 100's of units before it goes obsolete...

Huh?

I don;t think it's broke... just adds to the dominance sweepstakes.

Yeah, so maybe you or some potential KAI might have ivory.

You might get a lucky hut Settler. Or you might have a sh*tload of cows instead... or some rare strategic resource... or some key bottlenecks.

So be it. Play on.

Kuciwalker · January 6, 2004, 23:37

Quote:

Originally posted by jimmytrick
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Kuciwalker · January 6, 2004, 23:41

Quote:

Originally posted by MotownDennis If your SoZ is able to crank out 100's of units before it goes obsolete, then you're probably way behind on tech anyway.

If your SoZ is able to crank out 100 units, you are only about 20-30 turns away from a score loss

MotownDennis · January 7, 2004, 00:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus

Huh?

I don;t think it's broke... just adds to the dominance sweepstakes.

Yeah, so maybe you or some potential KAI might have ivory.

You might get a lucky hut Settler. Or you might have a sh*tload of cows instead... or some rare strategic resource... or some key bottlenecks.

So be it. Play on.

I could not agree with this more. Very, very well said.

pauli · January 7, 2004, 03:29

i've found an intriguing side effect of making the soz a small wonder:

bass ackwards civs build up obscene piles of ancient cavalry. the idiots never get to metallurgy, so the soz just keeps cranking them out!

i'm NOT looking forward to invading the aztec in my current game - if i can't take out their six or so cities in one turn, i'm going to have to deal with a monstrous counter attack.

ah well. just something to ponder

MrWhereItsAt · January 7, 2004, 04:52

DP

MrWhereItsAt · January 7, 2004, 04:58

Would it be worth donating techs to get them to Metallurgy then, pauli?

And if they are so a$$ backwards, can't you just land 5-10 Infantry on a hill somewhere and let them wipe themselves out on them?

And no-one messes with my SoZ! I still maintain that if you have Horses anyway and are at war, ACs will add to your strength only, not provide the end to all things. If you have no Horses this can be a godsend. And if you eliminate the Ivory requirement then the AI is almost bound to get it first at most levels higher than Regent without virtuoso playing. I am not a virtuoso player, and I love the luck effects introduced in C3C - volcanoes, the SoZ, chance of coastal starts for Seafaring civs.... T

he SoZ for me adds an interest factor for Ivory, where it is just another lux otherwise, and another opportunity at Horse-type units in a world where there are definitely less instances of such resources around in any map you generate.

pauli · January 7, 2004, 12:11

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Is it worth donating everything until Metallurgy to them then, pauli?

i've been considering it. problem is, the aztecs are barely into the middle ages. they've demonstrated that they have feudalism - i was quite surprised to see knights mixed with the ac - but i think i'd still have to give them a MASSIVE pile of tech, and even then, they'd still have the existing ac.

as for landing some infantry on a hill... every time i consider an offensive war of any sort, i get attacked from a new and even more improbable direction. stupid ai keeps messing up my plans

i'm also reasonably concerned that the ai will decide it can't take out my infantry and just bypass them. we are very immediate neighbors in some areas that would be very sensitive to pillaging.

MrWhereItsAt · January 8, 2004, 00:08

You would be surprised....

Admittedly this is PtW, but in that game of mine I landed 10 Infantry and 15 Armour. I took a city and fortified. When they triggered their GA there must have been at least 20 Cossack attacks on that city per turn, and once I had Civil Defense up I lost not a single unit for 10 turns until I got bored. There was absolutely no attempt by the Russians to ignore me nor deny Ihad landed, Thus take a crap little city and they may well come in their droves to commit hari-kiri.

pauli · January 8, 2004, 02:20

they seem to be a lot more gunshy in c3c - i've noticed that bolstering a city's garrison will deter attacks, or at least lessen their severity.