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Old January 23, 2004, 02:41   #61
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I don't think so as I have not gotten one from philosophy most of the time. In fact only once out of all the times I was first. I do not see any sure bets.
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Old January 23, 2004, 05:36   #62
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Philosophy is more likely to give you a SGL because you get TWO techs...provided you're the first to reach it and your free tech was also undiscovered.

EDIT: But the chance of getting an SGL this way is still pretty small. I doubt techs have an SGL weight...possible, though. If so, maybe cost has to do with it?

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Old January 23, 2004, 07:27   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thriller

Yes, of course selling techs to the AI will move them forward in the tech race immediately. Where I was coming from was the idea that if you sell scientific method to the leading AI for 150gpt, for example, then that gives it a lot less available gpt to increase its research rate or to generate gold to buy techs from other AI civs, so this will slow them down overall. At the same time, it gives you more gpt avaiable to increase your own research rate. Of course, you really need to sell techs to all AI's on the same turn if you can, soaking up whatever gpt they have available (assuming your reputation still allows you to). Then you watch your current deals and whenever a gpt is up for expiry, you try to repeat.

I'm not sure however, whether the combination of these factors would help you pull away from the AI's in tech, or help bring them closer to you. I've found that a tech lead can be quickly eroded when AI's are researching different techs and in a couple of turns you can move form being 5 in front to being almost equal. This is when you kick yourself for not selling them the techs first!

I guess there's no hard and fast rule on this issue. As you've said, it depends largely on your game position and your objectives.
I think I explained myself badly. i understand the idea of selling techs to the AI to bleed off their gpt, so that their research rate is slower. The problem is that much of the time you are selling the tech off for far less than it would cost them to research it themselves - which is particularly true after stock exchanges come around.

Imagine all techs need 1000 beakers to research, and can be bought for 1000 gold if you've done no research, or 50 gpt over 20 turns (I really doubt you'll get deals that fair though). An AI civ generate 100 gpt, or 100 beakers per turn (bpt) - banks and universities both built everywhere. They can research 1 tech in 10 turns, left to their own devices, which translates as 2 in 20 turns. If you sell them a tech for 50 gpt, they drop their science to 50 bpt, and research the tech in 20 turns, whilst getting one from you as well - so they get 2 techs in 20 turns; the same rate as before.

Now imagine they are only able to offer 20 gpt for the tech, and if you don't sell at that price, another civ will. They get to research at 80 bpt, getting the tech in 13 turns. By 20 turns, they have that techs, the one they bought, and are halfway to the next one - a significant improvement. This, in my experience, is the most common situation - you sell of techs dirt cheap to stop the money going to your main competitor.

For your main competitor (usually a commercial civ in this kind of situation) you have a different problem. He can do 100 bpt, but gets 40 gpt from other civs by virtue of selling techs off for low prices. You charge him 50 gpt. and he still does 90 bpt, and so researches almost as fast as before (but faster, due to buying techs off you), but just doesn't acquire cash as quickly.

With stock exchanges, incidentally, to generate 50 gpt to give to you, a civ only has to knock 40 bpt off its science rate, so again the net result is that you speed them up in absolute terms by selling tech to them.

The question is, whether the boost you get to your own research rate is greater than the boost the AIs get. You certainly don't slow them down in terms of no. of techs gained per N turns - they improve in that regard as you sell to them (and more importantly, as they sell to each other). Anecdotally, I'd suspect it's pretty close to even. Barring major world war, they manage to claw back lost ground throughout the industrial era whether I sell as much as possible or not. I've not studied it closely enough to see if one works better than the other.

It is more obvious that once you can run at 100% science and still break even, that selling techs hurts you in terms of the tech race. It improves their rate, without improving yours (although you may have other uses for that money which justify this).

One thing that should work in your favour is spotting which civs are getting large gpt donations from the others, and trying very hard to break up those trades - either by organising a war (not always that easy) or contacting the paying civ every turn to see when they suddenly have a large amount of gpt available, and pouncing then. This doesn't speed them up any more than they already were being helped by another civ, and undercuts that civ, which is probably the one closest to you in tech.

Enough rambling - back to work...
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Old January 24, 2004, 22:16   #64
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Originally posted by vulture
For your main competitor (usually a commercial civ in this kind of situation) you have a different problem. He can do 100 bpt, but gets 40 gpt from other civs by virtue of selling techs off for low prices. You charge him 50 gpt. and he still does 90 bpt, and so researches almost as fast as before (but faster, due to buying techs off you), but just doesn't acquire cash as quickly.
This points out quite the trick, btw... done right, you can stay just ahead of that main competitor, and not only drain its coffers but by extension that of all the other AI civs as well. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. You have to be a heckuva builder to do this properly.
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Old January 24, 2004, 22:30   #65
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You need more than being a good builder. You need to find the AI with money before it is spent.
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Old January 26, 2004, 04:24   #66
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The question is, whether the boost you get to your own research rate is greater than the boost the AIs get. You certainly don't slow them down in terms of no. of techs gained per N turns - they improve in that regard as you sell to them (and more importantly, as they sell to each other). Anecdotally, I'd suspect it's pretty close to even. Barring major world war, they manage to claw back lost ground throughout the industrial era whether I sell as much as possible or not. I've not studied it closely enough to see if one works better than the other.
I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. Anyway, I've experienced pretty much the same as you - no matter what your tech lead (unless you are dominating by a huge margin), the AI always seems to pull back your tech lead in the late industrial era.

And as Theseus says, to be able to research fast enough to keep ahead of your nearest rival and still sell them your techs, you need to have developed a pretty sizeable empire with a core (or 2) of mega-metropolises. Once you're big enough to hit the minimum research turns rate, and you're still generating cash without gpt from the AI, then it's time to stop selling those techs. But by that stage it will probably be academic - you'll be powerful enough to build up a large military quickly to crush any opposition.

I haven't studied it close enough to have any firm answers either. I wonder if someone might have the time and inclination to devise a test for this issue - I suspect it wouldn't be that easy to do, but the results would be very interesting.
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Old January 26, 2004, 10:46   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
You need more than being a good builder. You need to find the AI with money before it is spent.
This is why you should check the diplomatic screen EVERY turn.
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Old January 26, 2004, 13:14   #68
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Maybe I should, but it is more work than I am willing to do. It is too boring to go and see they have noting over and over, so I leave that to more dedicated players.
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Old January 26, 2004, 14:48   #69
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Are we to understand from furrykef's test that you can have more than one SGL at the same time?!?

If so, then I regret having burned a few at the moment I got them in order to leave the possiblity for more with the next tech...
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Old January 26, 2004, 15:06   #70
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Yes, you can have more than one SGL at the same time. You can not, however, have more than one MGL at the same time.
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Old January 29, 2004, 18:18   #71
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Quote:
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Yes, you can have more than one SGL at the same time. You can not, however, have more than one MGL at the same time.
Has anyone had this happen? Actually have one SGL and had a second SGL generated. If so I would like to see a screen shot to confirm this please. This would greatly alter how I deal with SGLs.
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Old January 31, 2004, 01:18   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by GhengisFarb

Has anyone had this happen? Actually have one SGL and had a second SGL generated. If so I would like to see a screen shot to confirm this please. This would greatly alter how I deal with SGLs.
I don't have a screen shot but I have had it happen pre Beta 1.15.
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