tolerant discussion

[da_hal]

is it that good? maybe in conjunction with lithovore, but 10 pts for it by itself seems out of whack.

i haven't messed with it much by myself, but it appears that cp's that use it are relatively strong.

[vmxa1]

UniTol +P LHW is about as strong as it gets. If it was cheaper still that would be allowing even additional picks to be used.

[bakalov]

da_hal, tolerant is very strong with production races because of the no-pollution feature. The other good thing is that you are getting large pops on the bad environment planets and can get a ridiculously high PP on those rich and u-rich planets that normally allow only a few pop units.
The race that VMXA mentioned is probably the best in the game.

[da_hal]

really? i've leaned towards DemLith +Res LPS as the strongest because i've done single planet wins in under 170 turns...just keep clicking "t".

i've found pure tech to be faster to win than pure prod, although i don't play much mp.

[vmxa1]

DemoLith is maybe my second strongest. I just hate the stealing aspects the demo brings with it though.

[bakalov]

da_hal, it is faster in real time, but not in game turns - uni tol can do a speed kill in a huge galaxy, max opponents for ~140 turns. Of course, you'll have to manage quite more planets here.

BTW if you are playing a single planet style, then why you do not take artifacts instead of +1 research? This is equal to +2 on this single planet and if you don't want to colonize you may did it a bit faster.

[P-K]

Originally posted by da_hal
really? i've leaned towards DemLith +Res LPS as the strongest because i've done single planet wins in under 170 turns...just keep clicking "t".

i've found pure tech to be faster to win than pure prod, although i don't play much mp.

Most powerfull combo is uni tol prod with NO large HW. Why no large ? Cos u have +20 defence more and +10 troops more, by cost of -10 spy. More defence plus inertial stabilizer gives a huge defence bonus. Ships like that can handle to survive the autofire mass driver with cyber computer for a medium and long distance. Better troops are usefull when boards are important. This has a great aspect. U can go for autolabs early and do not fear a cyber bb so much.
Also a bit smaller hw is a minimal disadvantage a player can easly handle. Sometimes i prefer POOR hw with a LARGE combo. However it only works with unitol prod.

However demolith is far from the best race. It is only the best demo race. I think every uni race can easly outcome poor demo. To bad it is so costly !

Someptin about tol pick :
Tol gives a unique economy bonus. No other race can do this so great. On multiplanetary system u build a 1st colony at max with a cbase at end. Then move ur pop to next colonized planet while the first one do 1 man house. Other strategy is also nice : U have 2 planets in a system which have simmilar large pop. U move all man from one planet to another to build things in 1 or 2 turns. Then pop on the other. When tol finds early rich as 2 nd system, it pops to 3 and buid a colony base in 8T. This is AWESOME. Also med rich can out a cship every 5T using only 10 man.
Summary : tol gives AWESOME capabilities, but only with uni prod.

PK

[vmxa1]

bakalov is correct that if you plan on doing a turtle run, use AHW instead of +R. Plus R or P is best used when you are going to spread out and are in a large or huge map.

[Whoha]

ship defense is free points, early game they won't hit, and late game they will.

tolerant is awesome, and it goes well with most picks.

[Brutalisk]

"Demolith is only the best demo race. "

Despite its obvious advantages, I DO disagree with that. I use some democracy races which I think in my view can compete with that and are far more robust. Demolith would be a good choice though for an uncreative race

[bakalov]

Demo lith has some very interesting properties:
- It can launch an efficient attack at T30 if the opponent is reachable with one outpost (deuterium) and a few turns later with two outposts.
- It can defeat the guardian at T100.

[Brutalisk]

What game settings and how many players Bakalov?

In 1v1s you have lots of space and time and only one opponent to worry about, whereas in games with a lot of players, you soon find yourself faced with a lot of opponents

And usually, the human opponents are a lot smarter than the AI


Brutalisk

[P-K]

Originally posted by Whoha
ship defense is free points, early game they won't hit, and late game they will.

tolerant is awesome, and it goes well with most picks.

I found tol as awesome pick only with uni prod race. Normally it sucks.

Ship defense is NOT free points. Try to hit a -20 defence bb with ion drv by a normal af co laser. And try to hit a 0 defence penalty BB with same stuff. It matters for medium and large maps. It really matters ! AF laser is deadly in early game, so are missles. When u have a 0 defence fleet u eliminate a danger from lasers ( lets say decrease greatly ). So it has a great strategic influence on game.
Later game is important too. If u dont have a cyber comp and atleast a short range to ur enemy, u can only dream to hit 0 defence penalty enemy. So it still MATTERS much !

PK

[Whoha]

I get battlescanners with positronic, works like a charm for hitting everyone. I have not noticed a difference, in early game I just hit and run with missiles so its not an issue.

[Whoha]

and most tol strategies go around production, so try lith/tol and cyber/prod/tol.

[da_hal]

re: demo strats
i found demolith to be best for single planet strats, avg, p8, small uni. Democreative can also finish, although not as quickly. Mostly, i take demo + - spying, and just assume that the cp's will take everything shortly, so trade everything as soon as i get it.

re: tolerant for non-uni
I think all races have around base 30% pollution, so it affects all races equally. however, in terms of net production, some races get more total production benefits. either way, it's moot once the anti-pollution technology becomes available.

whoha: computers/scanners have no effect on missiles, they autohit, which is why they are so effective in the early game before ecms and shields. i often go sakkra hunting with 2 cruisers with 9X non-mirv nukes, which can take out a non-ecm/shield star base.

[P-K]

Originally posted by Whoha
I get battlescanners with positronic, works like a charm for hitting everyone. I have not noticed a difference, in early game I just hit and run with missiles so its not an issue.

Battle plus posi are nice, but :
1. U wont get supers = ur tech sucks.
2. They are costly to research ( 400+900 ) and u still must get other battle techs. So u are 1300 rps back.
3. They dont hit all stuff, below u will find my calculations :

Normal BB ( -20 defence ) : 50 defence ( augeng, nuke drive, full to 99% )
Ion drive : +20 defence
=70
My BB : 70 defence
Ion drive : +20 defence
Inertial stabilizer : +50 defence
ALL : 70 + 20 +50 = 140 defence

Normal BB attack with bscanners : 90
Posi BB attack with bscanners : 140

It seems to be 140 to 140, BUT here are more :

Laser cannon : co plus af gives +5 attack.
Mass driver : af gives -20 attack.
Fusion : co gives +25 attack.
Heavy mode : gives about +25 attack.
Range : chance to hit dissapears with each field.

Depending on what u got u will or not hit this kind of 0 defence penalty ship.

I am not sayin that u wont hit it at all. But in practise i ve noticed 2 things :
1. noone gets posi comps.
2. without posi or higher comp chances to hit are reduced and it is noticable :
-20 def penalty bb can kill about 3-3.5 dd with 0 defence penalty (laser cannon)
0 def penalty bb can kill about 4-4.5 dd with -20 def penalty.
BB vs BB : 0 def penalty bb will win in 90 % of when defending. It will also win in 60 % if it attacks. For measurment i took same bb design :
1 hvy laser plus rest normal lasers ( all modes on ).

PK

[vmxa1]

The key is non-creative just cannot afford to take that computer over the super computer. Ship board computers are a big drag for non-creative races.

[Whoha]

battlescanners are level 250, you give up plus 1 cmd point or tachyon scanners, and in the physics line, if you want autofire lasers or co fusion lasers(as your example shows), you will have to research that.

And I generally always pick positronic computers over super computers(now anyways), super production races means super expansion all over the place, so its not that big an issue, same reason I can generally always take class 3 shields(tolerant gives more pop so they aren't worthless size 3 or 5 planets).

Heavy gives +50% accross the board to range total,range for tohit purposes,dissipation, and damage, so its generally always better to pick heavy unless you expect lots of missiles ,or just don't have the space for it on smaller craft.

that said, heavy + battlescanners, plus crew experience is fairly good for to hit purposes.

[Whoha]

oh, now I see, you added the cost of every tech up to scanners, but not for computers.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by da_hal
re: demo strats
i found demolith to be best for single planet strats, avg, p8, small uni. Democreative can also finish, although not as quickly. Mostly, i take demo + - spying, and just assume that the cp's will take everything shortly, so trade everything as soon as i get it.

re: tolerant for non-uni
I think all races have around base 30% pollution, so it affects all races equally. however, in terms of net production, some races get more total production benefits. either way, it's moot once the anti-pollution technology becomes available.

whoha: computers/scanners have no effect on missiles, they autohit, which is why they are so effective in the early game before ecms and shields. i often go sakkra hunting with 2 cruisers with 9X non-mirv nukes, which can take out a non-ecm/shield star base.

its slightly under 50% pollution I think. And as for missiles, thats why I use them.

[Admiral Sparky]

By the time you get to 900 or 1150 in all research fields, you have all the tech you need to win, so it's safe to take Positronics over Supers. Besides, you can just steal Autolabs from whoever hired Mentox

As for Tolerant, I find that it's kind of fun but generally nowhere near as good as Lithovore. Tolerant increases your population by 25-50% and your industry by another 30%, whereas Lithovore doubles everything by virtue of not having to devote half your population to Farming. HOWEVER, I find that my purely thematic "Androids" race (Unitol, cybernetic, -50% pop, -0.5 BC, -20 any combat) can be surprisingly strong. Most silly theme races suck... this one doesn't... hmmm...

[P-K]

Sparky : "By the time you get to 900 or 1150 in all research fields, you have all the tech you need to win, so it's safe to take Positronics over Supers. Besides, you can just steal Autolabs from whoever hired Mentox "

By the time u will get all 900 rp important techs ur enemy will outtech u with much stronger stuff like zort and emg and possibly a cyber computer.

Sparky :"As for Tolerant, I find that it's kind of fun but generally nowhere near as good as Lithovore. "

Oooo Cant be I find tol much better then lith

Sparky :"Tolerant increases your population by 25-50% and your industry by another 30%, "

Tol increases size by almoust twice to normal race. Size of pop depends how u play it and what u got.
Industry is increased from 10 % to 50 % at begin depening on planet and richness.

Sparky :"Lithovore doubles everything by virtue of not having to devote half your population to Farming"

Shock ! Only poor races has half of its man on farming. Most races has only 33 % or 22 %. So lith gives not much.

Regards.

PK

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Admiral Sparky
By the time you get to 900 or 1150 in all research fields, you have all the tech you need to win, so it's safe to take Positronics over Supers. Besides, you can just steal Autolabs from whoever hired Mentox

As for Tolerant, I find that it's kind of fun but generally nowhere near as good as Lithovore. Tolerant increases your population by 25-50% and your industry by another 30%, whereas Lithovore doubles everything by virtue of not having to devote half your population to Farming. HOWEVER, I find that my purely thematic "Androids" race (Unitol, cybernetic, -50% pop, -0.5 BC, -20 any combat) can be surprisingly strong. Most silly theme races suck... this one doesn't... hmmm...

yea unitol, fill in the blank is very strong

you lose just under 1/2 production to pollution early game, not 1/3.

[Admiral Sparky]

My math indicates that both of you are wrong. However, I will go double-check.

[P-K]

Umm, double check looks cool
I am interested in ur results !

PK

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Whoha


its slightly under 50% pollution I think. And as for missiles, thats why I use them.

Pollution algorithm:
Pollution = (production - 2x) / 2 where x is the planet size

Tiny=1 Gaia=5


So planet size is the main factor in pollution.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Admiral Sparky

As for Tolerant, I find that it's kind of fun but generally nowhere near as good as Lithovore. Tolerant increases your population by 25-50% and your industry by another 30%, whereas Lithovore doubles everything by virtue of not having to devote half your population to Farming. HOWEVER, I find that my purely thematic "Androids" race (Unitol, cybernetic, -50% pop, -0.5 BC, -20 any combat) can be surprisingly strong. Most silly theme races suck... this one doesn't... hmmm...

To understand how the population and colony sizes work, simply place the planet size for the x.

Planet sizes: (or x values)
1- Tiny
2- Small
3- Medium
4- Large
5- Huge

Colony sizes:
Colony type multiplier
Gaia 5x
Terran 4x
Arid 3x
Swamp 2x
Others (x+1) while (tiny=1x)

Tolerant colony sizes:
Colony type multiplier
Gaia 5x
Terran 5x
Arid (4x+1) while (tiny=4x)
Swamp (3x+1) while (tiny=3x)
Others
Tiny x+2
Small x+2
Medium 2x
Large 2x
Huge 2x+1

Aquatic colony sizes:
upgrades Tundra and Swamps to Terran.
Ocean and Terran planets are treated as Gaia.

Subterranean colony sizes:
This pick increases all colony sizes by +2x.

Regular food per pop:
Planet type food per pop
Gaia 3
Terran 2
Arid 1
Swamp 2
Ocean 2
Tundra 1
Desert 1
Barren 0
Radiated 0
Toxic 0

note: remember that aquatic upgrades the food status of all the planets it upgrades.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Admiral Sparky
By the time you get to 900 or 1150 in all research fields, you have all the tech you need to win, so it's safe to take Positronics over Supers. Besides, you can just steal Autolabs from whoever hired Mentox

While the line about Mentox is clever, I think you may wait a long time to get autolabs, if you elect to get it that way.

Are you talking about an MP game or an SP game?

Here are the techs up to 1100:

Electronic Computer 50
Extended Fuel Tanks, Nuclear Missiles, Standard Fuel Cells Titanium Armor 50
Frieghters, Nuclear Bomb, Nuclear Drive 50
Laser Cannon, Laser Rifle, Space Scanner 50
Anti Missile Rockets, Reinforced Hull, Fighter Bays 80
Bioshere, Hydroponic Farms 80
Colony Ship, Outpost Ship, Transport 80
Automated Factories, Heavy Armor, Planetary Missile Bases 150
Dauntless Guidance Systems, Optronic Computer, Research Labs 150
Fusion Beam, Fusion Rifle 150
Space Academy 150
Class I shields, Ecm Jammer, Mass Driver 250
Battle Pods, Survival Pods, Troop Pods 250
Battle Scanner, Tachyon Communications, Tachyon Scanner 250
Deuterium Fuel Cells, Tritanium Armor 250
Armor Barracks, Fighter Garrison, Space Port 400
Cloning Center, Death Spores, Soil Enrichment 400
Neural Scanner, Scout Lab, Security Stations 400
Augmented Engines, Fusion Bomb, Fusion Drive 400
Alien Center, Xeno Psychology 650
Anti Gravity Harness, Gyro Destablizer, Inertial Stabilizer 650
Battle Station, Powered Armor, Robotic Miners 650
Merculite Missile Pollution Processor 650
Advanced Damage Control, Assualt Shuttle, Fast Missile Racks 900
Holo Simulator, Planetary Super Computer, Posistronic Computer 900
Ion Drive, Ion Pulse Cannon, Shield Capacitor 900
Microbiotics, Telepathic Training 900
Neutron Blaster, Neutron Scanner 900
Warp dissipator, Planetary Radiation Shields, Class III Shields 900
Atmospheric Renewer, Iridium Fuel Cells, Pulson Missiles 1150
Battleoids, Ground batteries, Titan Construction 1150
Graviton Beam, Planetary Generator, Tractor Beams 1150
Planetary Stock Exchange 1150
Terraforming 1150

[Admiral Sparky]

Originally posted by vmxa1




Pollution algorithm:
Pollution = (production - 2x) / 2 where x is the planet size

Tiny=1 Gaia=5


So planet size is the main factor in pollution.

The formula more closely resembles this:

Pollution = (Production/2 - x)

(yeah they're the same, but mine doesn't involve doubling something and then halving it...)

So if you get your industry high enough, then you will approach (but never reach) 50%, but the vast majority of the time, it is closer to 20-33% (Taking into account how big your populations are when you get pollution controllers, etc.)

Your explanation of maximum colony sizes is interesting but not well stated. It's better to think of it this way:

Each planet has an amount of "surface area" equal to five times its size number (Tiny=1, Huge=5). Of this, 100% is usable by colonists on Gaia planets, 80% on Terran planets, 60% on Arid, 40% on Swamp, and 25% on everything else. Tolerant races can use an additional 25% of the surface area, meaning that their populations are doubled on Toxic through Tundra worlds, but only increased by an additional quarter on Terran planets and not at all on Gaia planets.

I win most of my games with B1150-F battleships, which have nine HV ENV Fusion Beams and Class III Shields, among other things. They're all I need to win the game. There's also the "Spin the Guardian" Titan, but those are just for victory points...