Your SID level experiences

[ErikM]

Standard map, 70% water continents, sedentary barbs, 7 civs.

[vmxa1]

Cool.

[Drachen]

Hey Erik: Your 1000BC situation looks really strong. Good cash flow and bankroll. I agree that starting with alphabet may be essential but prefer to try to get writing first as the alphabet easily trades for masonry and the resource techs. I wish you luck in your hunt for the GL. My experience on standard maps was that the AI got to literature too fast and usually I lost the GL within 10 -15 turns of completion, but I wasn’t fomenting wars like you have been so that may well help you out. Keep us posted.

[Drachen]

Hey Vmxa1; Got any good war stories? You show Sid whose boss yet? Lord knows I haven't, although I think I may Have a good shot at it with my current game.

[Paddy]

Go get 'em Erik

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
Go get 'em Erik

Hail Britannia Paddy: I hope your Napoleonic exploits are going well.

[Paddy]

Thanks Drachen....

Well the 1st Sid level game as England in the Single Player Napoleonic scenario finished very badly.... My fleets saved the day time and again, but with the combined resources of the whole of Euraope, Napoleon and his ever slavish allies soon took my beloved homelands.... and I was taken away for a serious beating...

Yet I persisted and tried again, let me just say I enjoyed the 1st game compared to my defeat in this one...

Persistance would be but an utterance if I did not try again, so I have game 3 under way at the moment... hope is a bright future that I look too

Over in the PBEM world, a group of us started The Second Coalition - 22 June 1799.
This is a game with all of the setting for a SID level AI.
Here we matched up:

King Paddy III of England
Czar Pinko I of Russia (Supplemented by the Iron Prince Jackson)
King Bongo II of Prussia
King Chrisius IV of Spain
Sultan Wittlich of the Ottoman Empire
Shogun Gunner of Austria
And His Excellency, Cardinal Lacey of the Vatican

We have been battling SID level AI in Napoleon and his faithful (locked in) ally, Gustav of Sweden.

You will be happy to note that Napoleon has been wiped from Europe, actually so has the City of Paris, and the country of France... Louis was a bit sad, but well these things do happen.

At this time we are hunting down that Rogue, Gustav.

Now I must tell you that we were able to take Napoleon resonably quickly, as we had a coalition, and we went him hard, thus robbing him of valuable time to build his forces.

Early in this game there was some debate on if we had all of the settings correct for this to be a SID level PBEM. Some assistance was called for on Changing the Agression Level in PBEM games. We believe that we had it all correct, yet still some doubts lingered. We even sent a message through to Fireaxis, but have had no reply yet.

All in all, Sid is a bugger in the Napoleonic Scenario, and I would really like to take him and some of the other countries in Europe on in PBEM, yet I do not trust that the editor is able to really adjust it all to SID level at this time.

Thos single player games are Hard

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Drachen
Hey Vmxa1; Got any good war stories? You show Sid whose boss yet? Lord knows I haven't, although I think I may Have a good shot at it with my current game.

Yeah I shoed all right. I held up the mirror and then I shined his shoes and beg for mercy.

I am not sure what tact to take next. That is why I have been asking about map settings and such. To see what others are finding out works or does not work.

I am not sold on the island maps, but honestly have not tried one on a large or huge map. My thinking is that invasion of Sid level civs will be unbearable from an island.

I like the idea of ErikM of having some civs on your land for contacts and trades, if you can do it quickly. After a short time the AI will have all the first and second tier techs, so you will not be able to trade any.

The problem is if you are in a spot liek that you could get killed.
It would be hard to find location that let you survive the early contact.

I still don't know if it is useful to have any changes in things like number of civs, aggression and barbs.

So I am trying to come up with an idea that is worth trying and is not cheating. I mean, I would not add stuf or play against a few civs that were stuck on island and that sort of thing.

So anyone have any ideas?

[vmxa1]

Paddy the Scot sounds like you guys had fun, but I think Sir Ralph was correct. Even at Sid the AI can't beat 6 humans bent on destruction.

Are you saying you played the scenario as an SP game for the first run as England? Or was it also a group effort?

[Paddy]

Yes it does look as if Sir Ralph was correct. May he life long and prosper

In the Sid level PBEM against Napoleon we did have history to assist us. We knew to blockade France from Prussia. As Prussia had just come out of a ten year armistace, where they had lowered their armed forces to approx 10% of their size. And we knew we had to get Napoleon hard and get him fast...

I have been involved in four games so far at Sid Level on the Napoleonic Scenario...

3 as single player... ouch
1 in the PBEM...
I have been England in each of these four.
I played a single player one prior to the PBEM, another during the PBEM, and have started the third one now that the PBEM is coming to an end.

I am in three other PBEMs for this scenario, these are standard PBEM settings:
1. I am the Ottoman's, all main players human. Sweden as AI
2. I am France, the other player is England, the rest AI
3. I am England, the other player is Russia, the rest AI

[DrSpike]

Is it 6 V 1? Cowards.

[Paddy]

Cowards is it...

We were trying to see if Sid could really be a good as Napoleon

The Coalition we formed actually existed

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
Cowards is it...

We were trying to see if Sid could really be a good as Napoleon

The Coalition we formed actually existed

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers:
For he to day that sheds his blood with me,
Shall be my brother: be he ne're so vile,
This day shall gentle his Condition."

Four games to date? Civilization awaits the fell deeds and valiant words of Paddy the Fifth.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1


Yeah I shoed all right. I held up the mirror and then I shined his shoes and beg for mercy.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1

I am not sure what tact to take next. That is why I have been asking about map settings and such. To see what others are finding out works or does not work.

I am not sold on the island maps, but honestly have not tried one on a large or huge map. My thinking is that invasion of Sid level civs will be unbearable from an island.

This is a large archipelago with 70% water and this particular map has an isthmus which is one of the key features I’ve been looking for. My turf is rather poor actually with lots of plains and a dense marsh separating me from my only luxury but I was able to place Bombay, my second city, in a strategically vital spot. This is where the hammer will fall if the Aztecs don’t get around to crushing me before I’m ready. It may not be clear from the mini-map but I’m connected to all of the Aztecs and some of the Persians turf. The Aztecs are at peace and gracious towards me. They have also fallen very far behind in tech while I have the GL and am even with the leaders. I expect Chivalry/War Elephants soon and am just starting my military/infrastructure build up post rex. I will start with Republic and try to set up a killing zone in Bombay based on forested access tiles, Elephants, and bombard units with multiple allies. I hope to keep my military at parity with the unit support limits and concentrate on economic growth to fuel tech theft/trade. If I can take over the continent and keep building infrastructure then I may be able to switch to researching my own techs later. This map has one other major advantage in that all of the other major landmasses are relatively close to mine which should ease later invasions and help curb the rise of KAIs. Suggestions are welcome.

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Drachen


"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers:
For he to day that sheds his blood with me,
Shall be my brother: be he ne're so vile,
This day shall gentle his Condition."

Four games to date? Civilization awaits the fell deeds and valiant words of Paddy the Fifth.

Thanks, I appreciate your words and confidence

[vmxa1]

Paddy I am not sure I would care for Englands traits, but good luck.

[vmxa1]

Drachen I can't imagine what I could add to someone that has built about 16 cities, GL and is researching Chiv by 390BC. Not to mention visited much of the islands and this with a non industrious civ and I presume no wars.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Drachen I can't imagine what I could add to someone that has built about 16 cities, GL and is researching Chiv by 390BC. Not to mention visited much of the islands and this with a non industrious civ and I presume no wars.

Thanks for your kind words Vmxa1 but I seem to remember something about you taking on the AI right out of the gate and conquering an entire continent as a result. Not too shabby if you ask me.

As to my research, it’s actually set to zero and I won’t do any research until Printing Press becomes an option since the AI often skips it. Other than that I think I’ve made too many mistakes in this game already and I hope it doesn’t bollix up the game before it’s all over.

[vmxa1]

I chickened out in my current game and paid the extortion. When I get some extra cash now I am building embassies.

Ran intoEngalnd on another land mass (looks too big for an island) at 1650BC and they have Bronze working, Pottery, Wheel, C.B., Math and Phil that I don't have. A bit later they landed setlers on my land mass ( I know Arabs are there at least).

I have not scouted it by units as all my scouts (warriros) were killed by barbs. Even the group of two that were togetrher were attacked by horsemen.


I did get a few tech from America soon after meeting England.

So I still do not have Temples and only now have gotten Granaries. This is a big hole, so I could not fight back with just warriors.

I have some hopes to get rolling, but I foolishly raced for Phil, that was just stupid. I am counting on the other civs to hold each other in check until I can get my pumps going and then we will see.

I got no tech, no gold, no settlers from huts. None were very cloe to my start point. I can't recall the last time I had no hut within 20 tiles. I did get 1 warrior and 1 map, all the rest barbs.

Not exactly a stellar start. All civs are random, I think it has 16, but I have not looked at F10, I rarely use it. It looks like barbs are roaming, not raging, but I am not sure.

I was hoping the AI would cover that for me, but I have had three stacks of 8 show up so far, they were all split into 4 or less thankfully.

[vmxa1]

Finally got the first tier techs:

[ErikM]

Drachen, your bottleneck is very nice but it seems to me that your lands are rather poor. It will be difficult to generate enough commerce to compete with the AI technologically without rivers/gold.

I have no experience with large/huge maps, though. My PC approaches retirement age and is a bit too slow on maps larger than standard.

[Paddy]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Paddy I am not sure I would care for Englands traits, but good luck.

The rod of trying to get history to bend to my will

[Drachen]

Originally posted by ErikM
Drachen, your bottleneck is very nice but it seems to me that your lands are rather poor. It will be difficult to generate enough commerce to compete with the AI technologically without rivers/gold.

I have no experience with large/huge maps, though. My PC approaches retirement age and is a bit too slow on maps larger than standard.

You’re absolutely right ErikM. My turf is poor and I am having problems generating the necessary commerce for tech theft and shields for military/infrastructure. The lack of excess resources to sell/trade has been in particularly problematic in that I have had to sell tech for gold and as a consequence I have fallen well behind the four tech leaders who are trading with each other like nobody’s business. I probably should have done a better job of fomenting wars between them to prevent trade but I was somewhat reluctant to start wars since between 390 BC and 190AD I was only able to generate 2 War Elephants and 5 trebuchets along with a garrison of one spear or pike per city. I have stolen one tech thus far but was unable to trade it for any other techs due to AI lack of interest and the final insult is that I failed in my second tech theft. So I’ve now got about 100G and 90 GPT with tech theft running 2500 G and a deficit of at least five techs. This is all within 25 turns after losing the GL benefits due to Education. It doesn’t look good for the home team so I think I’m going to have to take the lessons learned and start a new game. Curses…foiled again!

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Paddy I am not sure I would care for Englands traits, but good luck.

I’m not so sure England is a bad choice Vmxa1. At least not for SP games at Sid. It may well be my second favorite tribe after India for the following reasons. It seems to me that the GL is the best tool to use to remain competitive in tech into the middle ages in most games Sid level games. This is because you will almost always get the GL on larger maps whereas tech trade and tech wars are less sure since you may or may not be able to keep up depending upon the vagaries of chance. If you accept the premise that the GL is the way to go then you should build it and that makes early warfare much more difficult since one of your core cities is tied up until 110 turns into the game. After the GL, with a relatively small land holding due to no war and less robust rex, you must find a way to keep up in tech and that means tech theft. Later on you may be able to expand your empire and build up your research infrastructure but starting with your first tech after the GL stops you will probably be looking at 50 turn research. So if you are going to rely on tech theft then England becomes an attractive choice since both Seafaring and Commercial increase your GPT which make England one of the best wealth producing tribes in the game. On top of those benefits you also get the early exploration advantage of Seafaring, its later invasion benefits, and early harbors for trade which can also increase GPT. The English UU is a bit of a mixed bag. It’s resource dependant and in C3C that can be problematic. I think it’s much better to go with a UU that’s not resource dependant such as the War Elephant. On the other hand if you do have the resources to build the English UU then you can sail it anywhere and start a Golden age war with whomever you like. Not a bad option. Thus, I think England is an attractive choice but perhaps not quite as strong as India for Sid level games.

[vmxa1]

First I am with ErikM on the map size. I was just fooling around with a huge map and with lots of cities, turns are a couple of minutes even early in the game. This on a 3gh machine.

As to England, the commerce trait may be useful, but will not pay off until you have lots of cities. This may never happen, if you get a bad start location with lots of neighbors.

The Sea trait offers the harbors and extra movement. Not a bad thing, but how much is it worth?
Well you are not going to get Colossus vry often and never going to get the Lighthouse. You will be a long time waiting for Navigation. So looking for contacts will be a bit better with that trait, but not huge.

India may be good as the Elephant has been upgraded a bit in C3C.

[vmxa1]

Maybe you guys can straighten me out on the traits for Sid. I am vacillating and not sure what would work best.

Sea and Com mentioned.

Mil - low cost barrack and better promotions. This could be very useful if you go with a Bamspeedy approach and I am starting to thing that may be the way. No help with empire growth.

Rel - low price for temples and cath. Switch gov quickly.
Nice, but I am thinking that you can't afford to build this structures for a long time. Switch to what and when?
Monarchy and Republic are going to be too expensive for the number of units you need. Later govs are a long way off.

Ag - ok I like this one.

Ind - ok I like this one.

Sci - well it is of little value to get a free tech at age boundaries.
If you make it to industrial ages it has not gotten you a first tech and I have not gotten to modern age, where you may finally find it useful. Cheap libs and unis are nice, but again it will be a long time before you build libs and unis are a dream.

Exp - never like this for most games and really see no value in Sid games.

I am strongly favoring Mayans at this point for those traits and the JT. I only used them once it was my best effort.

Some traits like Sci are much better at a level like Demi IMO.

[vmxa1]

Types of maps:

What do you think of the settings for the game?

Std - Large - Huge

In general I would not like to play huge and I am not fond of large either. I am not sure if a large map will help you or hurt you.

Islands would seem to be good at first glance as you can get going before facing a war, if you are alone.
You can probably get contacts on a std map before the rest do.
The bigger the map the harder that will be to pull off.

Invasion will be tricky. especially once they get rails. Defending against invasion may be easier, but bombard can be brutal.

Contients amd Pangea are not much different, depending on the amount of water. I fear being on a pangea with civs all around me, that was the shortest game I have tried. It was ugly.

The contient maps have been the best so far. I have not seen any starts where I was able to block with some bottleneck.
It is harder as the AI will have gallies soon and just go around you and land settlers from the sea.

[ErikM]

By the shores of Gitche Gumee,
By the shining Big-Sea-Water,
Stood the wigwam of Nokomis,
Daughter of the Moon, Nokomis.
- H. Longfellow, The Song of Hiawatha

This is how it looked like:

[vmxa1]

Wow 825BC 1754 gold and +89gp with what 12 cities.

I still only have two contacts in 490AD nd only now have gallies. Lost all my curraghs.