Your SID level experiences - Page 4

Aeson · January 16, 2004, 07:07

Quote:

In general, I had thought that using accelerated production merely speeded up the game without any DIRECT gain in relative advantage for either the human or the AI.

I'd have to watch the AI play Sid AP, but my guess is that a lot of their builds (units) are already 1 turn, so halving that time won't help them in those cases at all.

Also the AI just love +2 food per turn, using your governor will show that well. Problem is that with AP on, Granary cities only need 5 food to grow, and the AI will end up wasting 1/6th of their food in cities with Granaries.

Finally, it's the AI's starting advantages that usually give it the difficult part of the difficulty level. AP decreases the worth of those starting advantages.

It still helps the AI, but AP will help the player a bit more in most cases.

PrinceBimz · January 16, 2004, 09:42

My SID level experiences? Turn around and run for my life

Drachen · January 16, 2004, 11:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeson

I'd have to watch the AI play Sid AP, but my guess is that a lot of their builds (units) are already 1 turn, so halving that time won't help them in those cases at all.

Also the AI just love +2 food per turn, using your governor will show that well. Problem is that with AP on, Granary cities only need 5 food to grow, and the AI will end up wasting 1/6th of their food in cities with Granaries.

Finally, it's the AI's starting advantages that usually give it the difficult part of the difficulty level. AP decreases the worth of those starting advantages.

It still helps the AI, but AP will help the player a bit more in most cases.

Good Morning Aeson. I think you make a number of valid points about AP. It would seem that if the AI is already getting an item in 1 turn that the acceleration effects would be wasted. I did mention the rounding effects but was thinking more in terms of shields and your point about the food bin seems valid. Both of these effects would tend to tilt the advantage towards the human player. I also mentioned the starting units and the change in relative gain but I’m not so sure how the balance sheet stacks up. If you go to war early then the relative AI unit advantage on standard production will be greater than on AP but as a practical matter at present I would probably resign any game at SID in which I was involved in an early war because it seems unlikely that my current bag of tricks would enable me to recover from that. I’m also not sure how AP would affect the cities the AI builds with its starting settlers. Wouldn’t it gain from producing even more settlers early with the ensuing exponential effects? As a counter to all of the above is the fact that the human advantage comes from better decisions regarding terraforming and defense. Longer production times will allow the human player to maximize those advantages. I will say that my initial impression is that the game is harder with AP turned on and I wonder what impressions others may have.

On a different note I was wondering what parameters may be changed in a game start without the Civ community thinking that the start is “cooked.”
I’m ready to take what I’ve learned from my posted game and attempt SID without any deviation from normal settings but I’m not quite sure what constitute normal settings. Can one change the AI attitude settings? What about Barbarians? Can you choose your opponents or will only random selection do?

Enriquillo · January 16, 2004, 14:07

Quote:

I will say that my initial impression is that the game is harder with AP turned on and I wonder what impressions others may have.

My impression is that AP makes it a lot easier.
For instance, researching philosophy first on SID without AP is impossible IMHO.
but I'd have to play you're game a few more turns to be sure.

Quote:

On a different note I was wondering what parameters may be changed in a game start without the Civ community thinking that the start is “cooked.”

There are no rules, and we won't judge you whatever settings you use.
But I do feel AP is a bit like DM in RTS, which takes away most strategy from the game.
Ofcourse with AP that's not entirely the case, but it alters the game too much for my liking. Just a personal preference really, all I was saying you might have mentioned using AP , since all the other cooking you and I did was a lot more, shall we say, subtle

Drachen · January 16, 2004, 15:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Enriquillo

My impression is that AP makes it a lot easier.
For instance, researching philosophy first on SID without AP is impossible IMHO.
but I'd have to play you're game a few more turns to be sure.

There are no rules, and we won't judge you whatever settings you use.
But I do feel AP is a bit like DM in RTS, which takes away most strategy from the game.
Ofcourse with AP that's not entirely the case, but it alters the game too much for my liking. Just a personal preference really, all I was saying you might have mentioned using AP , since all the other cooking you and I did was a lot more, shall we say, subtle

Hey Enriquillo, you probably read my reply to Aeson as regards AP and at this point I don’t have a clear idea of just how all the variables end up affecting human vis-à-vis AI. When I get a chance I’ll do some testing to see if my early game can be reprised without using AP. When I made my original post I was under the impression that it was a wash or perhaps favored the AI. However, if your assessment is correct that AP significantly aids the human player and disadvantages the AI then not reporting AP as a game setting would be a significant omission. I didn't report that I was using AP because I thought it was a non issue and it may be that that assumption was incorrect. So…perhaps there is expiation for sins of omission in Civ?

Enriquillo · January 16, 2004, 18:04

muhaha, I'm taking the mickey out of Hammurabi

This game is starting to get interesting. I had to walk all the way to the southern tip of my continent for iron, and I have no saltpeter yet.
I'm building up medieval infantry and am preparing to beat the crap out of the nearest guy with saltpeter, hehe (island just north of me).
I've build only two wonders so far, but they've benefited me greatly. Firstly the GL has made me rich and landed me gunpowder and everything up to education.
Secondly, the mausoleum which has turned my capitol into a 24 shield producing monster.
It just feels so great being able to build everything in just a few turns, AP ain't so bad for a friday night

Drachen · January 16, 2004, 21:58

Hey Enriquillo. I know how you feel as I'm one of those who tried AP and never looked back. Your game looks good but...uh...didn't you leave out a few details?

Enriquillo · January 17, 2004, 07:25

Another thing I noticed is that having 2 opponents instead of say 5 does not make it easy.
Babylon for instance had over 30 defending troops and 5 wonders, now that's a killer AI if you ask me.
All terrain was taken fairly early, although in this case 5 opponents would have meant an enemy on my island and as a result no iron for me.

You need a lot of patience to try and crack that nut, Babylon that is

Quote:

Your game looks good but...uh...didn't you leave out a few details?

Don't quite follow you there I'm afraid, what would you like to know?

Drachen · January 17, 2004, 08:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Enriquillo

Don't quite follow you there I'm afraid, what would you like to know?

Enriquillo: “My impression is that AP makes it a lot easier.
For instance, researching philosophy first on SID without AP is impossible IMHO.
but I'd have to play you're game a few more turns to be sure.”

And then

“muhaha, I'm taking the mickey out of Hammurabi

This game is starting to get interesting. I had to walk all the way to the southern tip of my continent for iron, and I have no saltpeter yet.
I'm building up medieval infantry and am preparing to beat the crap out of the nearest guy with saltpeter, hehe (island just north of me)...."

Drachen: It sounds like you’re playing out my posted 4000BC save but you haven’t said so anywhere that I could see so I just wanted to clarify that point. If it is I’d enjoy looking at a few game saves from crucial junctures so I can see how you’ve played the beast out.

Enriquillo · January 17, 2004, 10:02

Quote:

Drachen: It sounds like you’re playing out my posted 4000BC save but you haven’t said so anywhere that I could see so I just wanted to clarify that point.

Do I need to spell out everything for you?

Yes it's your posted game, since I wanted to make sure I was playing the same settings.
I don't think I'll pursue this one, because I don't really like the AP.

Also, I've reached tech parity and feel like I've got this one in the pocket, (might be a bit optimistic, I know).
The reason I started it was to compare AP to regular settings, which I've done. AP is easier, probably because it benefits you more than the AI.
Other than that it's a tough map, just one luxury and no strategic resources. Good luck to you though

Maybe I'll change my mind and play a few more turns tomorrow, today I've other plans (party).

Drachen · January 17, 2004, 10:10

Easier...hmmm. I'm going to working on some normal production games and I'll see if I agree. Any chance of a save game?

sabrewolf · January 17, 2004, 10:33

sid level?
that means to me "i wish killer spearmen were more frequent"

as i havn't even mastered demi-god or deity for a long time in a completely random game (without CTRL-SHIFT-Qing), sid is just way out of my league

it's just those darn 3 settlers that kill the fun

Enriquillo · January 17, 2004, 11:17

I'll probably start one tomorrow with same settings, except no AP this time.
See how that compares.
I'm going to be looking for relative strength compared to the two AI's.
On regular settings it takes a lot longer to reach techparity and then surpass the AI and be on your way to a win.

Maybe on AP though you might be in for a nasty surprise IF the AI smartly uses AP to build a lot more military, which I doubt it does.

Drachen · January 18, 2004, 02:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Enriquillo
I'll probably start one tomorrow with same settings, except no AP this time.
See how that compares.
I'm going to be looking for relative strength compared to the two AI's.
On regular settings it takes a lot longer to reach techparity and then surpass the AI and be on your way to a win.

Maybe on AP though you might be in for a nasty surprise IF the AI smartly uses AP to build a lot more military, which I doubt it does.

I’ve just finished about 20 different starts doing everything I could think of to get the Pyramids with the AP turned off and failed to get them every time. It seems that AP benefits the human player and I won’t be using it anymore in my SID attempts. Hmmm…I was hoping to use the Pyramids and Bach’s to get an Egyptian GA without a fight but it looks like it’s back to the drawing board for me.

Enriquillo · January 18, 2004, 11:28

I'm about to give up on SID, even if I do manage to beat it that would just prove I'd gotten extremely lucky on my starting position. Even then you'd have to be extremely patient to play it out, something I'm not

With regular settings it's just no fun, you won't be able to build more then 5 cities mostly.
I've gotten 16 once, but that was with an extremely good start and minus 2 or 3 AI's.
All the AI does is race it's extra settlers towards your borders and then declare war if you try to claim some of the land more then 2 clicks away from your capital

I even had this happen with the Indians on lower then regular aggresive settings

Something's not right about that.

Capt Dizle · January 21, 2004, 11:55

I've a nice game going with extensive notes. I expect to win it. I'll see if I can cobble together a decent AAR. I have not compare mine to the civfanatics sucession game. It is taking a long time between turns.

Drachen · January 22, 2004, 10:11

Quote:

Originally posted by jimmytrick
I've a nice game going with extensive notes. I expect to win it. I'll see if I can cobble together a decent AAR. I have not compare mine to the civfanatics sucession game. It is taking a long time between turns.

Good luck! I'm looking forward to your AAR.

Drachen · January 24, 2004, 01:58

SID, Beta 1.15.

It’s 1750BC and I end my turn with writing due in 1. After all AI moves the science advisor appears, tells me we learned to write, and asks what I want to research next. I ask for the Big Picture and contact all other civs to verify that none had writing yet. They didn't and I didn't trade it to them since I wanted a head start on Literature. I chose Literature to research and closed the advisor screens. At that point, with no other AI moves occurring, every AI had Writing and other changes consistent with AI tech trading. That strikes me as odd but perhaps I don’t understand the tech queue and trade system?

vmxa1 · January 24, 2004, 02:13

At one time they put out a fix that was to prevent the AI form trading due the players turn. Sounds very fishy, do you think one researched it or may stoled it? Did any have an embassy witrh you? I find it is easy to steal before espionage if you have the cash. Did you have a courthouse at the time?

Drachen · January 24, 2004, 02:37

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
At one time they put out a fix that was to prevent the AI form trading due the players turn. Sounds very fishy, do you think one researched it or may stoled it? Did any have an embassy witrh you? I find it is easy to steal before espionage if you have the cash. Did you have a courthouse at the time?

Theft...hmmm. With the situation I described the AI would have had to steal it during my turn and that seems odd as well. Since I was the first to writing I had no courthouses or embassies. Also, I’m not sure if I have a save game of it but I think this same thing happened another time I got writing first with Beta 1.15. IIRC that's twice in the 4 or 5 games I've gotten to writing and in some of those I wasn't the first to get it.

vmxa1 · January 24, 2004, 03:37

Now I am wondering. I tend to not do much trading so I often will not even check after I get writing. Only if I want to trade, so I don't know if I had had this occur. Maybe worth posting in the bug thread. I am usin 1.15 as well.

Drachen · January 24, 2004, 04:05

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Now I am wondering. I tend to not do much trading so I often will not even check after I get writing. Only if I want to trade, so I don't know if I had had this occur. Maybe worth posting in the bug thread. I am usin 1.15 as well.

Yup...maybe I'll post it there if nobody comes up with an answer overnight. Thanks for your imput Vmxa1. I'm sure I'll be talkin to you again.

Aeson · January 24, 2004, 15:56

I don't think it's a bug. The AI research phase actually comes after yours.

So what probably happened is the AI's were all researching Writing themselves, possibly to get it the same turn or a little later. Then your research completes, you break into diplomacy during your research phase using the big picture, leave the big picture, and then the AI's research phase begins. They complete Writing (and it's going to be cheaper for them because you and any AI's before them have it) during that phase, then your production and their production phases. Only then does 'your turn' start.

Drachen · January 24, 2004, 17:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeson
I don't think it's a bug. The AI research phase actually comes after yours.

So what probably happened is the AI's were all researching Writing themselves, possibly to get it the same turn or a little later. Then your research completes, you break into diplomacy during your research phase using the big picture, leave the big picture, and then the AI's research phase begins. They complete Writing (and it's going to be cheaper for them because you and any AI's before them have it) during that phase, then your production and their production phases. Only then does 'your turn' start.

Thanks Aeson;

The system you describe seems to match my observations. I know one AI has contacted no one but me and could have researched Writing that turn. The other two AIs on this tiny map are in contact and it seems that one got Writing and traded it and about 44 gold for Mathematics. The advantage the AI has in research may mean that the boost they get from researching a previously discovered tech pushes them to finish the same turn more often on tiny map SID than would be the case on lower levels and/or larger maps. I think I'm going to move my attempts to larger maps and see if that helps.

Paddy · January 24, 2004, 18:20

We are just starting a PBEM Napoleonic Scenario, with 6 human players against a Sid level Napoleon. There is also King Gustav of Sweden who we locked into an alliance with Bonaparte.

This looks to be a good game, so I though I would get in and have a game of the scenario in one player mode on Sid.

well my British way of life has changed quite a bit since starting. I got in early and formed alliances all over the shop, traded goods for gold, and dug my troops in awaiting upgrades from Musketeers to RedCoats etc.

What is going on...? Alliances have slipped through my fingers, French troops have stormed my border garrisons, countries that would not enter into a MPP have turned into blood enemies, and I fear for the remains of my once all powerful, all mighty fleet...

Ok it is harder, and I feel I will not survive... but I'm loving the challenge...

Drachen · January 29, 2004, 16:46

The setting: Beta 1.15, SID, Standard map, wet, warm, old, sedentary barbs, default rules, lowest aggression, Netherlands facing Inca, Maya, Ottomans, Chinese, Sumerians, and Celts. This is one less opponent than usual. It’s 720AD and I’m researching Chemistry. I thought I’d be able to trade the Ottomans Economics for something but somehow they got both that and Democracy last turn. The Sumerians got the Theory of Evolution about two turns ago and are well advanced along with the Chinese and Maya. The Celts and Inca are well behind on tech. My reputation is intact and I’m on good terms with all but the Inca who had a city, Ica, on my Southern border which I had to secure and so I finagled an Incan declaration of war and took it. I’m hoping for a GL from some low grade conflict with them and then I’ll probably move on the Celts so that I have an invasion path to China and Summeria. The problem I’m having is in trying to figure out how to prevent the tech leaders from winning space race or diplomacy before I’m strong enough to get to them.

So now what?

ThePlagueRat · January 29, 2004, 17:07

Should I try to play the Rise of Rome campaign on Sid level with aggression highest, or would that just be a waste of time?

Just played Fall of Rome on Monarch, damn annoying that Rome never Fell. No AI aggression on the AI Rome, just me (Vandal) who threw a couple of stings...
If the AI aggression had been on full and the level at Sid, the AI players should gang up on Rome no matter if it was man or machine, but alas that's not the way it works...

vmxa1 · January 29, 2004, 18:33

You can cut of any access to a require resource such as Uranium.
This is probably the one that is likely to be some what rare.

If you get nuke.......

Use spies to foil the construction.

vmxa1 · January 29, 2004, 18:34

Remember they now have to research farther down the tech tree, so you have more time.

Drachen · January 29, 2004, 19:56

Quote:

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
Should I try to play the Rise of Rome campaign on Sid level with aggression highest, or would that just be a waste of time?

Just played Fall of Rome on Monarch, damn annoying that Rome never Fell. No AI aggression on the AI Rome, just me (Vandal) who threw a couple of stings...
If the AI aggression had been on full and the level at Sid, the AI players should gang up on Rome no matter if it was man or machine, but alas that's not the way it works...

I haven't tried the Rise of Rome campaign but Paddy's comments about his campaign caught my attention. But…I actually think you should try it… although it may just be that I don’t want to be the only one around here getting my head handed to me by the AI.