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View Poll Results: Would you go to Mars forever?
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Yes
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18 |
33.96% |
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No
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31 |
58.49% |
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I wanna go to the banana planet.
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4 |
7.55% |
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January 10, 2004, 02:25
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#31
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Deity
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Posts: 10,604
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So what causes leakage in the first place? Do small amounts of oxygen get accelerated past escape velocity somehow? Or is there some other process that my physics-impaired ass doesn't know about? I'm intrigued...
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January 10, 2004, 02:30
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#32
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Deity
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Not all molecules are at rms velocity
They follow a Boltzmann distribution.
exp (-E/kT)
so there are always some greater than escape velocity.
How many that is depends on temperature, mass of molecule and what escape velocity
rms velocity of H2 at stp is ~1700 m/s IIRC (it has to be 4X that of O2), which is much less than earth's escape velocity which is into the tens of km/s
But there's no H2 in earth's atmosphere (or hardly any)
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January 10, 2004, 02:31
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#33
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Deity
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Sorry. escape velocity on moon is actually ~2.5 km/s
Earth's is the one at 11 km/s
Point still stands.
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January 10, 2004, 02:37
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#34
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Deity
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Situation is even more complicated than that, because the mean free path of molecules in an atmosphere as dense as the earth's is very small, so not all molecules at escape velocity will make it all the way out.
Those already in outer reaches of atmosphere will have best chance.
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January 10, 2004, 02:38
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#35
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Deity
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Interesting. Thanks. 
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January 10, 2004, 03:42
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#36
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Emperor
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Posts: 3,948
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Quote:
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Originally posted by TCO
dEAN IS ALREADY THERE.
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Only feebs vote.
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January 10, 2004, 06:51
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#37
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Emperor
Local Time: 16:53
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Location: a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
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Is my quality of life on Mars significantly better than I would have on Earth? I don't want one of those damn frontier communities with weirdly asymmetrical economies and no doctors. Pioneers die young. Let Mars settle down into civilised society for a few hundred years and then I'd think about it.
I'm patient after all.
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Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard Dawkins
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January 10, 2004, 07:03
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#38
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Emperor
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One interesting point about establishing a breathable atmosphere on the Moon or on Mars that I had not considered until very recently is that, thanks to the lower gravities, it would have to be much thicker than Earth's to achieve the same pressure.
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"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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January 10, 2004, 07:06
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#39
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Deity
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"Thicker"?
I'm assuming you mean heightwise.
That is true.
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January 10, 2004, 07:11
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#40
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Emperor
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Yes, heightwise.
I don't like the idea of terraforming an atmosphere. It would take a lot of work, and would remove many of the advantages of colonizing the Moon in the first place.
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"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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January 10, 2004, 07:16
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#41
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Deity
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Terraforming is in distant future, AFAIK
And it migh remove some advantages, but provide a hell of a lot too.
Think about how much cheaper and safer it is to work under 100 kPa than it is to work under 0
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January 10, 2004, 07:19
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#42
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Emperor
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I woke up. too much drinking. caps lock came off too.
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January 10, 2004, 07:19
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#43
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Emperor
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Think the of view from Lunar Observatories once that extra-thick atmosphere is in place.
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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January 10, 2004, 07:20
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#44
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Deity
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Easier to keep satellites in orbit, no?
Especially for large mirrors. Gravity is chief problem with current large mirrors.
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January 10, 2004, 07:20
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#45
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Deity
Local Time: 11:53
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Join Date: May 2001
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Quote:
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Originally posted by TCO
I woke up. too much drinking. caps lock came off too.
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How much you have, sailor?
Feel okay or sick?
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January 10, 2004, 07:23
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#46
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Emperor
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Once the infrastructure is in place, it'll be easier to maintain the really large observatories on the surface, just as it is now -- though, certainly, putting observatories in lunar orbit is an option.
Then there's the whole "ecology" thing.
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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January 10, 2004, 07:25
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#47
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Deity
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You mean preserving a bunch of dead rock?
**** it.
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January 10, 2004, 07:25
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#48
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Emperor
Local Time: 05:53
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Posts: 8,057
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Quote:
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Originally posted by KrazyHorse
How much you have, sailor?
Feel okay or sick?
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I'm fine. about 4-5. More than good for me. But no hang over.
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January 10, 2004, 07:26
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#49
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You mean preserving a bunch of dead rock?
**** it.
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You are killing the geodiversity... 
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January 10, 2004, 07:27
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#50
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Deity
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Join Date: May 2001
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You must know by now that I'm a pretty bad environmentalist too.
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January 10, 2004, 07:27
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#51
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Emperor
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Exactly.
Right now, the moon dosen't have one, and we can move as much heavy industry and "risky" science there as we please without upsetting anything.
Once we have a "breathable" atmosphere there, however...
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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January 10, 2004, 07:28
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#52
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Deity
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The moon's so big we couldn't possibly **** it all up...
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January 10, 2004, 07:32
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#53
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Deity
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I want to be able to lie on a beach chair one day, sipping a Luna Libre, staring out at the beautiful view of the earth rising over the lake occupying Copernicus crater...
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January 10, 2004, 07:34
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#54
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Emperor
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Another advantage is that none of it has any prior claims, so it's very hard to step on any toes -- no residential zoning, evironmental impact statements, nature reserves, etc.
How big did you want that superconducting supercollider (with dedicated power plant, of course)?
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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January 10, 2004, 07:34
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#55
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Deity
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I think once around the lunar equator should be sufficient...
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January 10, 2004, 07:35
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#56
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Emperor
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Hmmm...beachchair...supercollider...beachchair...s upercollider...
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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January 10, 2004, 07:37
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#57
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Deity
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Think about the billion or so extra people. Now think about their GDP. Now think about taxing that GDP and turning it over to pure science...
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January 10, 2004, 07:37
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#58
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Emperor
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We could dome over one of the larger craters, give it a good gas mix and a lake, and put your beachchair there...
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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January 10, 2004, 07:38
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#59
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Emperor
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Works for me!
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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January 10, 2004, 07:39
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#60
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Emperor
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grant proposal needs work...
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