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Old January 28, 2004, 16:06   #31
Hendrik the Great
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I'd love to help but the last time I did anything with Civ2 or Scenarios is at least 2 years ago. I am awfully out of practise. And dont worry. I think from the first sketches to the final scn it was half a year or more that I spent on it because I am terribly lazy and at several stages had no clue on how to continue and solve some of the problems I had. I started with drawing the map btw.

I know Fading Lights. I did some helping to its creator. Not much though.

Anyways, if you need some help feel free to ask but I dont check into Apolyton daily, just 1 or 2 a week mostly.
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Old January 28, 2004, 16:53   #32
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hm, well the main problem is the events. and mostly that i dont know how to create units by an event, someone said that the x,y parameters have to form a diamond or something of the kind, i dont know what he meant exactly though. Moreover another problem is that since this is 1401-1462 (or 63, fall of Trebizond, also it would suck to have urban's cannon show up in the very last turn heh) there really isnt much space for dramatic changes, so it looks like it will be a scenario about trying to survive in morea and not much more, it would be useless to try to make another 1204 or 1260 scenario, and my original plan -to make a detailed scenario about how the despotate of epiros became the empire of thessalonike and almost made it to become a second byzantine empire- was ultimately dropped.

however i suck at creating tech trees (tried and failed miserably in my first scen) so no tech interest here either (possibly just one political tech etc) so the only end is to create a nearly impossible to survive scen where only the byzantine empire is meant for play.

anyway, the scen is far from finished.
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Old January 28, 2004, 18:28   #33
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the diamond thingy is when you move unit, when you create units it's like this:
(example from 2194 days of war)


@IF
RECEIVEDTECHNOLOGY
technology=83
receiver=Americans
@THEN
CREATEUNIT
unit=Commandos
owner=British
veteran=yes
homecity=None
locations
76,30
75,31
74,32
73,33
endlocations
@ENDIF

recievedtechnology, can be replaced with many things like:
TURN
turn=22

hope this is what you meant
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Old January 29, 2004, 20:14   #34
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ty Arthedain

Hm, i dont know how this scen can be anything but fantasy, since if i try to make it historical it will be dead boring. even fading lights (where at least you start with tens of cities) the byzantine player was dead bored (or just me) due to the impossible situation. although i plan to make ottoman units dirt cheap (as in fading lights) i dont see much point in having all of the byz handicaps depicted in the scen. probably the tamerlane invasion and the hungarian crusade (battle of varva) and also the french-hungarian crusade (battle of nikopolis) will be presented, and possibly even the hexamilium (if the player conquers Korinthos) but generally things look like they will either be fantasy or boring...
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Old January 30, 2004, 10:51   #35
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Being unussually employed with the scen i managed to create some more units.
-byz castle
-byz border (movable, costs 30 shields though)
-byz settler (only the byzantines will have settlers probably)
-latin castle
-improved latin borders etc

you can see the byz castle, the byz settler (bottom) and the byz border (it is the four miniature byzantines) in the pic

still everything is very far from finished..

now byz units are:
-byz phoideratoi (strong cavalry)
-byz stratiotai (medium infantry)
-imperial guard (strong infantry)
-byz archers (archers!)
-byz small galley (weak naval unit)
-byz Spatharios (strong naval unit, very expensive though, the Spatharios was the byz rank for admiral)
-byz castle (very expensive)
-byz border (unrealistically expensive!)
-byz siege
-byz settler (expensive)

and through research (epirotan armies) they can also produce:
-epirotan (weak infantry, but dirt cheap)
-epirotan cavalry (weak cavalry, dirt cheap)

so i guess that is enough as far as the byz units are conserned, since most of the other nations only have 5 units.
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Old January 30, 2004, 11:36   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by varwnos

-byz border (movable, costs 30 shields though)

the byz border (it is the four miniature byzantines) in the pic
Now that is a novel concept!!

How do you intend to use this unit? and why?

And the unit looks good, BTW (which is a surprise for me, as the 4 miniatures are really small!)
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Old January 30, 2004, 12:29   #37
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well it is a unit with defence factor of 9, whereas the next most powerful def unit is the castle, with 6, so it is the only super defence unit in the game. I dont really see why you find the idea of a movable border strange, borders are moved as a result of conquest The idea is that you have 3 or 4 border units and can move them too strategic locations to avoid the ottoman onslaught etc. Creating more is very unrealistic since they cost 30 shields, like i said, and the byzantines only have 3 serius shield producing cities, so it would mean that you would have to sacrifice any other production in one or more of those cities for a lot of turns, and trust me: the ottomans have units that cost 1 shield and arent that weaker than the main byz units, so failing to produce oceans of units will put you in a very hard position vs the ottomans
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Old January 30, 2004, 13:01   #38
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Show us the castle-unit!
Screenie looks nice btw
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Old January 30, 2004, 13:04   #39
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Oh, and I must say that you should be very pleased with drawing units, escpecially in YOUR OWN STYLE.. I wish I could draw units like that and make my own scen with them ..*jealous*
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Old January 30, 2004, 14:04   #40
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thank you

the castle unit (at least the byz castle one) is in the morea pic, it is the thing (heh) between Mistras and the empty fortress. you can see two miniatures there if you look closely. Hm, well you can also see it next to Thessalonike.

i made two naval borders (venetian and "veneto aid" which is basically a naval border unit in the coast of Thessalonike. two of them are byz and the other is venetian, this prevents you from declaring war at venice (the byz empire was closely allied with venice in the end) since if you do you can forget any possibility of ever moving ships out of Thessalonike since the veneto aid unit owned by venice is a veteran (defence of 9, so the byz empire cannot realistically ever destroy it unless it produces 4 spatharios units, and that is a very tall order...)

Thessalonike was given over to Venice in 1430, with the hope that it would be able to defend it more than the byz empire. Venice promissed that it would make it "a second Venice" etc. In reality the city was soon conquered by the ottomans. i am thinking of an event where if the city is conquered there are some venetian units created next to it, since it doesnt make sense in any other way, no one would just give away one of his most important cities in a strategy game

also there is a pic of the special venetian naval border, in crete.

no naval border units can ever be moved, they are there mostly to reresent venetian supremacy in the seas (venetian cities cannot be attacked from the sea due to the borders).

i also edited the turk unit, but it still sucks i think ;| It looks a bit chinese, but i dont have models etc, so it will have to be like that. The bad thing is that it is everywhere in the map (almost).

oh, i also made the units:
-bulgarian (pretty cool)
-hungarian (not as cool, but ok)
they will be shown in some other pic i guess.

i need a list of events from the period though, can anyone help? we are talking about 1401-1463
anyway
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Old January 30, 2004, 15:28   #41
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(edited)

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Old January 31, 2004, 10:56   #42
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Created some new units. The principality of Butrinto will serve as the main western power in the region, thus enabling me to use frankish knights for it (other units will have the angevin-papal states shield). new shields: french and habsburg (they will play a part in the game). also you can see the principality of Achaia border (tuscan shield) and the urban's cannon (i just added the miniature turks). also the latin castle. There isnt much room for many more units (ps the wallachian unit has to change, i know it looks bad)
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Old January 31, 2004, 17:08   #43
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Don't stick to historical accuracy too much. You already said this is a hypothetical scenario. I am not very familiar with what happened after Constantinople was taken by the Ottomans but I am sure there must be some small side-stories about the conquest of Morea. There were a lot of foreign powers in the regions. Use some hypothetical diplomacy, like Venice supplying a sizeable fleet, the Knights of St. John attacking the Ottomans unexpectedly, and so on...

Incorporate the Fall of Trebizond. Assume the siege of the city went very badly for the Ottomans because there was a thunderstorm destroying much equipment. If the city falls have refugees appaear in Morea eager to help fight the Ottomans.

or maybe some of the Crusade can move vs. the Ottomans, have them score a victory somewhere. Or advance the Battle of Lepanto to an earlier age killing of the major part of the Ottoman fleet.

Another idea: use a miracle. Let's say there is a mircale that happens in Morae prompting many pilgrims to go there. Soon the papacy might be forced to protect them, and so on...Use your fantasy!

This all requires a lot of events space btw...

Daroe was my 2rd scenario and the first with a complex new tech tree. I advise drawing your entire tech tree out on some paper using lines to connect the techs and abreviations.

Make sure it is very organised so you do not lose orientation.
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Old January 31, 2004, 21:16   #44
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Thank you for the ideas Hm i will begin with the last thing you said, the tech tree. My attempt to make a complex individualised tech tree in my (horribly boring) first scen failed miserably. That is the main reason, but moreoverI dont think that i will even try to have a tech tree here, since the scenario a) will be mostly event driven, b) only the byzantine empire is meant for play, c) the byzantine empire starts with 9 units and gain another two through tech "epirotan armies", d) another tech is given to them if they conquer Korinthos (the Hexamilium). The individual nations already have all special techs. Butrinto can produce units from 4 different nations, and through events gains control also of wallachs and habsburgs. The byzantine empire gains control also of some wallachs in the same way. However the problem here is the number of the events. i already have 23 events and i am not past the 16th turn! (however most of them involve city taking and units killed, so they can take more time before appearing). Atm i am working at the first major set of events involving byzantine help granded to serbia in Kossovo etc.
A major problem is the role of Venice in the game. I cant ally them to the byz empire because then they would be in war with all of the latin nations. I cant ally them with the latins so that the opposite wont take place. I thought of preventing negotiations between venice and byz empire but that would just lead to war i guess (can that happen even if byz-venetian relations are 0 attitude? and communication isnt possible?)
Venetian towns are virtually non-conquerable (well unless a pretty large fleet starts destroying their naval borders) so they arent vulnerable anywhere else apart from their small possesions in Morea, and Corfu.
the latin kingdoms-dutchies-principalities are all set to 0 attitude towards each other, and moreover Butrinto is allied to Achaia. Also Athens is allied to Achaia. Butrinto and Athens however atm dont have any contact.
Serbia is isolated, and ofcourse the ottomans are the hated enemies of everyone else.
To further neutralise Venice i made their land units cost a lot more than the other western powers units.
Stefan, you used the no negotiations option in DAROE, so you probably can answer my question about it

(here are two new units, the latin castle -the other one is used only inside some major latin controlled towns- and the improved version of the wallachian)
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Old January 31, 2004, 21:31   #45
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most of my units
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Old February 1, 2004, 08:26   #46
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I'm Mathias not Stefan. He's the one who makes all those Scn about acient Persia, etc.

I faced the same problem you do. How to prevent certain civs to never go to war with each other. Disallowing negotiations. It also sloved the problem of other Civs gaining specific techs not meant for them to be ever reached. It made making the tech tree a bit easier because I didnt have to set everything to no, no prereqs.

Ofc this means if you declare war using events you cannot ever have the war stop. Sometimes one has to weigh whats more important, a playable Scn or accuracy.

Practically I have all cities being able to be conquered. Though some of very strong, non-moveable defensiv units in them to delay this as long as possible. I placed invisible, move 0 air-units with a high defense in eastern Turkey to block certain terrains to be crossed and to protect areas from direct attack/invasion. I think I left a small passage way open....not sure.

Another though. If you use multiple event files you can disallow civs from talking in one time period and allow it in another. I used that approach in my 3rd and last Scn about the Vikings to simulate the division of the Frankish Empire into a western and eastern part. First they are allied, attitude set to 0 and are disallowed from talking. Effectivly making them one nation made form 2 parts, having also the same starting tech tree and units, etc...

By a change events file later on they are allowed to talk and are given new base techs to allow for seperate development.

Just another idea.

When I made Daroe the disallow negotiations for all thing used to be bugged. It worked somehow though....

Did you take a look at the events file of Daroae? I also used short text messages to announce certain historical events of some overall importance to add something to the game atmosphere.
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Old February 1, 2004, 22:22   #47
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ty, Mathias!

btw i am facing a weird bug, i load the scen and the events dissappear! anyone know what might be cuasing this?
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Old February 2, 2004, 10:23   #48
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I guess you made the events in a txt file and then tried loading them into ther events editor and tried changing them there again. is it that?

If you do that sometime it messes everything up. Most of the events i made without the editor to avoid it, only uised to ti check if the file is not getting too big which it normally did.

Otherwise, my memory is a bit rusty maybe someone else knows about it better.
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Old February 2, 2004, 12:23   #49
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you should draw the sav-file onto the delevent.exe file..
(just put the file into your scenario folder, draw the savfile over it, and let it go. now the events stored in the sav-file will be deleted, and when you reload the scenario, it will load the events again)
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Old February 4, 2004, 21:49   #50
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it didnt work.. i think that a reasonable guess would be that the fact that some of the names (units or nations) in the events are different than the ones in the game is what causes them not to function, but the very first event is about the ottoman empire and it used to work perfectly ok before. (the nation and city name is ok in that event). i dont know, i am having second thoughts about the map as well. but anyway the scenario still is far from finished etc
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Old February 5, 2004, 03:30   #51
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a lot of changes
-changed the map (yes, that means that the scenario is even further away from being finished)

-bulgarians are now a nation

-no turkey

-less latin kingdoms (i am trying to avoid there being only veneto and one latin kingdom for all though)

-possible new nation "morean greeks"

i dont yet know what this will be about. i am trying not to make another DAROE since that scenario is a classic.
i am thinking of focusing on the despotate of Epiros, and this map enables me to. this possibly means that there will be no nicaean greeks though (anatolia in that case will just be cutt off with impassable units)

in that case the nations will be:
-serbia
-bulgaria
-despotate of epiros- empire of thessalonike
-morea (well actually just most of south morea)
-venice
-(king Henry's) latin empire of Constantinople (everything latin in Macedonia and Thrace)
-dutchy of Athens & Kingdom of Korinthos & principality of Achaia (basically everything in the south of mainland Greece)

the thing is that Morea isnt very promissing as a computer player, i think that it pretty much joined the Nicaens historically. But having Nicaea in this map would be very boring (no turks) and also would ruin the epirotan greek conquest up to the outskirts of Constantinople.

I also thought of joining Morea with Smyrne, since there was an independent greek kingdom there for a while post 1204, but that would mean having asia minor in the game, and i think that this creates more problems than those it solves (stronger Morea).

i decided not to go with the other possibility, which was to depict everything from Basil II -1260. that would be very hard to depict!

Also the third plan, to depict just the byzantine-bulgarian war, also was dropped, since there would be just two sides.

so it looks like asia minor will be cut off from land and see by impassable (barbarian air) units. this enables me to make some nations invulnerable as well (have their units appear after all of the playable map territory they had has been devoured by other powers).

I will try to make at least two nations fun to play, that is epirotans and morea.

any comments?

ps: i know that Nicaea is a more reasonable player option than Morea, after all Morea can be depicted as a nicaean vassal etc. but then the scen would just be a DAROE antagonist... Besides in this map it is impossible to hold Nicaea from Constantinople, unless i just make ludicrous guarding units that are undead unless someone conquers Constantinople from the european side heh. Well even if i do that then the scen would have very mixed aspects, since Nicaea isnt supposed to conquer anything in europe before the empire of Thessalonike collapses. Mathias, any ideas?
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Old February 5, 2004, 18:35   #52
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Uhmm...

What is the timeframe of the scn again? 14:53 until 1461? Longer? Maybe include Asia Minor and make it possible yet hard for the Moraens to turn around the events that happened together with Epiros. But as I already said I am not familiar with what happened after 14:53.

Nah, forget what I wrotr about. Don't have any good ideas atm.

If you want Morae to be a AI then support it via events like cost free, additional units ever so often turns or tech...
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Old February 5, 2004, 19:00   #53
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Well i am mostly trying to decpit the nightmareish collapse of the empire of Thessalonike. This part of byzantine history isnt that well known i think. The empire of Thessalonike at one time controlled all of the central balcans + albania + northern greece +almost all of thrace, so it almost made it to become a second byzantine empire. It ultimately was utterly destroyed in a bulgarian ambush though. I will probably have Nicaea i guess, and Morea will be part of Nicaea, with one or two events informing of this. Well the map is mostly a 150% version of the same part of the map used in "fading lights", with some minor corrections (Morea + the chalkidike peninsula -the peninsula to the south of Thessalonike).

i think that i was a bit too worried about trying not to make it Daroe-like, since there are a few key differences:

-bulgarians as a nation
-2 latin kingdoms
-no ottomans

however this starts at roughly the same time as Daroe (1211, when bulgaria became an empire again) and ends predictably in 1453 (since there are no ottomans it doesnt matter). The large map and mountanous terrain helps with depicting the empire of thessalonike- empire of bulgaria conflict. I noticed that in Daroe the serbs declared war on Epiros, is that historical? if so do you have any info to share about this? i gathered some details about the thessalonike-bulgaria war myself also there are some nice bits about the latin empire of Constantinople, one of its emperors for example tried to reach it by sea (succession) but was captured by Epiros, so never made it to his empire. i am thinking of using a similar event to the "sicilian vespers" one in fading lights

thank you for your support
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Old February 6, 2004, 01:48   #54
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Ok, i chose new cities (from a scenario about Granada!) which i think look very cool

also i decided to make "via egnatia" roads (railroad) which is the white road you see in the pic. i wanted to ask how i can set it so that in the railroad the units have 50% of the regular moving cost (ie a unit with mf of 1 can move 6 times in railroads)
the via egnatia was a road built by the romans, it connected Dyrrachion to Thessalonike, and Thessalonike to Hadrianople and Constantinople. it is still in use today (although not in its ancient form)
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Old February 6, 2004, 07:38   #55
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The finished map!

nicaea ultimately just had to be in the game...

the blue cities are the southern latin conquest, but i also gave them some northern cities.
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Old February 6, 2004, 09:26   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by varwnos
also i decided to make "via egnatia" roads (railroad) which is the white road you see in the pic. i wanted to ask how i can set it so that in the railroad the units have 50% of the regular moving cost (ie a unit with mf of 1 can move 6 times in railroads)
Sorry, I'm afraid you can't do that.. Too bad really.
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Old February 6, 2004, 09:27   #57
Hendrik the Great
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In all the turmoil in 1282 the Serbs begin the conquest of Byzantine Macedonia, taking Skoplje. 1296, Durazzo lost to the Serbs; Byzantine comes to aid of Genoa vs. Venice.

1334. Serbs under Stefan Duschan invade Macedonia.
46, he proclaims himself Emperor after taking Albania and Macedonia.
48, Serbs conquer northern Greece, Epiros and Thessaly.
1355, Serbia disintegrates without much outside interference after the death of Stefan Duschan.

I have it from the Man-at-Arms Series of OSPREY Military part 287 with color illustrations of common troops of the region from 1118 to 1461 AD. Mostly depicting forces under the command of various Byzantine Empires.

I also used the "Medieval European Armies" part 50, "Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300 - 1774" part 140, "Hungary and the Fall of Eastern Europe 1000 - 1568" part 195 and "The Venetian Empire 1200 - 1670" part 210.

These all show not just color illustrations of the most common troops the time and region but also provide quite a detailed view on the history, diplomacy and military command structure at the time, citing important battles and turning point with some background knowledge without going into too deep detail. The timelines provides are great for events btw...they also show various maps of the region at different times. Only draw-back, no one seems to be able to agree on the correct spelling of names of cities, persons or countries, sometimes giving the same "Empire" 3 different names.

Especially the series about Byzantine, Ottomans and Venice show a great number of examples for fortifications, too.
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Old February 6, 2004, 12:53   #58
Varwnos
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To Arthedain: Too bad about the railroad thing... i guess that it wont look very cool if i just have a railroad road every two regular roads, although i might keep the same colour and just use the effect. well it would be a little understood detail this way however due to the lack of difference in colour :|

To Mathias: Heh, the part about serbia disintegrading "without much outside interference" was just hillarius! (i am not saying that it didnt happen, just that it sounds very funny!)

well i will have the dusan expansion to the south, just wanted to check that i dont have to make serbian aggression on epiros early on (by 1284 there was no despotate of epiros anyway)

here is a pic of the despotate and surrounding cities

a pro of this map is that certainly this will be the byz scenario with the most european cities ever
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Old February 7, 2004, 01:20   #59
Varwnos
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which one of the two st. Demetrios collections do you think looks cooler for the combat sprite? (well originally i thought of making his wings bleed, but i decided that this might be a bit too gruesome heh) the unit was edited from the unit found in fading lights btw

hm i could always use more saints and also a unit of jesus on the cross (i saw it somewhere in these forums) as a kind of flashback effect. but i think that it might be a bit too sad.
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Old February 7, 2004, 04:19   #60
Varwnos
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a new unit! No, it isnt a supernatural unit, just some zealot defence of Thessalonike. this isnt historical, apart from the fact that st. demetrios is the patron saint of the city. After you conquer the city as the epirotans you just get this unit in the nearby fortress. possibly it will be virtually impossible to destroy, thus preventing any unhistorical collapse of the empire before it even comes to face the bulgarians. The shield is the "christogram" (a greek R -"P"- infront of an X.
i am thinking of two approaches, either make just one unit, or a number of them which shall fill Thessalonike. there wont be a tech for them though since they are city-specific.
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