Unfair Influence and Extraction of Information

Kody · January 14, 2004, 22:07

There have been far too many coincidences recently for everyone to be completely innocent. At first I ignored these, but they just kept adding up over the weeks.

Influence members in other teams to the point where they care more about keeping a friendship than their own team is intolerable. I don't know if this is conscious or not, but I feel that the hive has been comprised and this effect has been mainly to blame for information leaks and unrest.

At worst case there is a mole in the hive working to undermine, although I don't want to believe it. Another case is another team is purposefully influencing members of another team to extract information or influence decisions. A third case is the other team us subconsciously influencing decisions and gaining information during general chatting between friends.

I know I've had private communication about the ACDG where I felt I was having information extracted from me. I feel private communication (not fully released to the rest of the faction) if it does happen should only happen between the official ambassadors.

I would ask that activities targeted at extracting information or influencing opinions stop. With private conversations between friends please watch what you say least your friend takes it upon himself to have a crusade to help your faction. Information not only includes game information, but also the private stance, opinions and habits of members in relation to the ACDG. If these must be shared make them public, or become the ambassador so you privately relate them. It's rather disconcerting realising that while speaking to another team they already have a strong preconception of how you react (and I certain it wasn't the ambassador who told them since they got it wrong).

If there truly is a mole placed in the hive all I have to say is that you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

The first effect after first information leaks were detected was distrust of new members. Soon it became apparent that information that was only being shared privately between members (and wasn't posted in the forums) was somehow getting out. This distrust lead to the first of the serious rifts in the hive and many of the problems within the team. It does not help that another faction is encouraging their friend when that friend is busy flaming people or causing unrest.

As a consequence many of the hive members are talking about resigning. This issue has gone beyond just playing the game.

Drogue · January 15, 2004, 05:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
Influence members in other teams to the point where they care more about keeping a friendship than their own team is intolerable. I don't know if this is conscious or not, but I feel that the hive has been comprised and this effect has been mainly to blame for information leaks and unrest.

Really? People have put friendships on the line over diplomacy? Seems very extreme to me

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
At worst case there is a mole in the hive working to undermine, although I don't want to believe it. Another case is another team is purposefully influencing members of another team to extract information or influence decisions. A third case is the other team us subconsciously influencing decisions and gaining information during general chatting between friends.

The first is doubtful, but possible. The second could depend on your decision. Getting the tech trade you need involves influencing other factions to show them how they gain, and why they should trade. That is influencing their decisions, but is perfectly legitimate. The third will happen all the time, and it is impossible to stop it. I know I've been influenced by my trust and belief in others, and I know many of us will look over communiques closely to see if they have revealed something else about themselves.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
I know I've had private communication about the ACDG where I felt I was having information extracted from me. I feel private communication (not fully released to the rest of the faction) if it does happen should only happen between the official ambassadors.

IMHO that's unrealistic. What is said by an Ambassador is official, in a way things said by a normal member are not, especially with regards to diplomacy. But discussion between members happens, because we chat to each other, even among official diplomats. Personally I don't see a problem with that. It's all part of the game. I don't think it's unfair, because everyone can try it, and it is very easy just to say "I'm sorry I can't talk about that". What difference does it make if it's informal chats between officials. I have been told off for saying more than I was meant to in chats as our diplomatic function, but that was because I thought it was in our best interest to do so.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
I would ask that activities targeted at extracting information or influencing opinions stop. With private conversations between friends please watch what you say least your friend takes it upon himself to have a crusade to help your faction. Information not only includes game information, but also the private stance, opinions and habits of members in relation to the ACDG. If these must be shared make them public, or become the ambassador so you privately relate them. It's rather disconcerting realising that while speaking to another team they already have a strong preconception of how you react (and I certain it wasn't the ambassador who told them since they got it wrong).

Information I can see, although rogue members are allowed. With regards to notn giving our private stances, that's silly, IMHO. Of course, in discussions, I'm going to discuss how I feel about certain events, when the CyCon have no broad concensus. The job of diplomats is to reach a mutually beneficial and fair deal and then to try to sell it to their factions. What difference does it make being the Ambassador? Sure, it carries more weight, it is more official, but say the faction leader wanted to say something, or another official with a view on it. If your faction doesn't like that, cut down on it, ban members if needs be. But we are all ruling members, and we can all give our personal opinion on matters. I can understand the wish to remove giving away sensitive game information, but I think it's up to them what they give away, and if you don't like them doing it, tell them not to, or ban them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
As a consequence many of the hive members are talking about resigning. This issue has gone beyond just playing the game.

Hmmm, in what way? IMHO, saying that friends can't discuss their opinions with each other is taking it beyond the game. As Googlie has said earlier, rogue members are allowed. If a rogue member takes an action, the faction must live with it. I know there have been incidents with CyCon about either diplomatic functions going further than was desired (myself) and where non-diplomatic functions have said things that were unofficial and we wished maybe they hadn't. But that's all part of it. We are all members of the government. If someone has been found to be sending out unauthorised information then it is an internal matter, IMHO.

Having said that, I would frown upon trying to get information by surrupticious means. But what is an unfair extraction of information? 2 diplomatic functions telling each other more than maybe they are authorised to? A member having a chat about the game with a friend? I would say no to both. I think the only unfair extraction is if someone targets a weak member of an opposing faction with a view of getting information. But then they can just end the conversation. IMHO, human diplomacy is part of a team DG, or any PBEM. I agree with Voltaire's move to only have authorised ambassadors speaking to other factions, but that is an internal Hive matter.

Drogue · January 15, 2004, 05:45

Furthermore, IIRC, you are not supposed to be discussing game matters with your faction, due to being able to enter any private forum. If this is not the case please advise, but I would like to know how some of this information you are publishing has been got. For instance, you still post on the Hive/CyCon diplomacy board, which would seem questionable if you are not allowed to discuss game related matters with anyone.

If you are still participating in the game, then please advise. If not, then I would suggest that discussing the game with Hive members could easily lead you to say things you may have found on other boards.

Kody · January 15, 2004, 06:24

Drogue,

These issues were things put aside earlier to give people the benefit of doubt. As for what triggered this.....

Someone decided to threaten me after I had already officially left the hive. I felt it was time to politely ask that the extreme communications that have been targeted at extracting unofficial information (without the knowledge of the rest of the faction) or influence opinions using personal manipulation be stopped.

If you are unaware (which I suspected you were), then it may be time to start talking to the rest of your faction.

Drogue · January 15, 2004, 06:29

Threatened? That is extreme. I agree, extreme communication should be stopped. That is far more than simply dealing and trading.

MrWhereItsAt · January 15, 2004, 06:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody

If you are unaware (which I suspected you were), then it may be time to start talking to the rest of your faction.

One of... us?

Maniac · January 15, 2004, 06:56

Quote:

If you are unaware (which I suspected you were), then it may be time to start talking to the rest of your faction.

Eh?

I have not sent anything to Kody after that PM regarding the private fora, in case anyone was wondering.

Drogue · January 15, 2004, 07:21

I will have a chat with members in private. If anyone has anything they'd like to confess to, or feels they have been misrepresented or misunderstood, please PM me, and I will discuss what we can do next.

If anyone has been found to be threatening, as in violently, or cheating, they will be asked to leave. However I'm thinking it's more likely that something was misinterpreted, or that some pressure was applied regarding diplomacy.

Kody: If it was by PM, could you send me a copy of what they and you have said? I'd like to know how serious this is. If you feel it is serious enough to warrant an external investigation, please PM it to Googlie too. If not I will see if it can be internally dealt with.

I am sorry for any actions taken by CyCon that have offended you. I assure you that there are no authorised actions that IMHO are offensive or constitute threats in any way.

Kody · January 15, 2004, 07:59

While that got me angry my main concern is what happens from here on in.

Extracting a few bits of information by tricking someone is annoying, but not critical. My main concern is having a team member actively try and help another faction resulting in an obvious expense of their own faction.

Even if that wasn't intentional, they shouldn't have felt enough peer pressure from members of another faction to have reached that stage. However, I guess the ambassador is fair game as the team will be aware that the ambassador is often in communication with the other team. If done with any other team member, the faction will have no idea what is going on until long after the fact.

I feel certain players have gotten far too involved in the idea of using secret communications to help their faction. I ask that everyone involved, both hive and any other factions please ensure it does not reach unacceptable levels. A team shouldn't need to question the loyalty of it's members for fear of another faction influencing them adversely.

Drogue · January 15, 2004, 08:02

I have now been informed of the incident. There are two things I must mention. Firstly, according to the function in question,

Quote:

That chat had nothing to do with Cycon whatsoever, more like general ACDG following kodys resignation.

He also said that Kody "gravely misinterpreted" his words.

I am to be send the chatlog later, and I will check tha all was appropriate. But I have also been informed that Tassadar, one of the Gods, was present. Surely if it was at all against any rules Tass would have mentioned it?

I have to bring another point to this debate though. Kody, who is no longer a member of the Hive and has been banned from participation as a player in this game, is reading the private diplomacy forum, talking to Hive members and is trying now to sling mud at the CyCon, when a God was present at the time and because, as has been shown before, he overreacts to things and misinterprets them. Kody can see into private forums, and as he has said, he does not believe he could simply not do it. Therefore he can no longer take part in this game as a member of the Hive. However he is still talking to them about the DG. IMHO, that is a serious breach of security.

This matter, regarding diplomacy, is an internal Hive matter. Kody is not a Hive member, so he should not be taking part in it. He even posted the turn while not a Hive member. I must ask that if Kody can view all forums, that he is not allowed to give information to the Hive, nor take part in any diplomacy or orders, since he knows what others will do.

Unless this is not the case, could the Gods please do something about it.

Drogue · January 15, 2004, 08:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
Extracting a few bits of information by tricking someone is annoying, but not critical. My main concern is having a team member actively try and help another faction resulting in an obvious expense of their own faction.

Could you cite the example you have? If they are defecting, that is not allowed already. If they are being a rogue member, and acting on their own, it is allowed, but they should still be doing what they think is best for their faction. Could you also explain why you know about this internal Hive matter when you are not a Hive member? IMHO that's a much larger security problem.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
Even if that wasn't intentional, they shouldn't have felt enough peer pressure from members of another faction to have reached that stage. However, I guess the ambassador is fair game as the team will be aware that the ambassador is often in communication with the other team. If done with any other team member, the faction will have no idea what is going on until long after the fact.

Then they should tell their faction. I don't see a difference between the ambassador or another function. I will comply with Voltaire's wish to only listen to the ambassador, but both should relate to their team.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
I feel certain players have gotten far too involved in the idea of using secret communications to help their faction. I ask that everyone involved, both hive and any other factions please ensure it does not reach unacceptable levels. A team shouldn't need to question the loyalty of it's members for fear of another faction influencing them adversely.

Perhaps they don't. The only secret communications I have authorised have been between our ambassador and Hive ambassadors. I am fine about how the CyCon discuss things, and will comply with Voltaire's wish. However the loyalty of Hive members is a Hive matter. Of course a faction is going to influence other factions to try to do what they want. But faction decisions should be made as a whole, and as such, if they want to do something silly to help another faction, simply stop them.

Kody · January 15, 2004, 10:15

*shrug*

I think you're confusing the issue.

Drogue · January 15, 2004, 10:18

Possibly, but I think there isn't an issue. Except that no-one has said whether or not you are still helping the Hive, and whether or not you are allowed to.

Kody · January 15, 2004, 10:36

I think I'm not allowed to help the hive anymore. I've also decided that I can't look in any forums I didn't originally have access to just in case something slips while I chat. As for what you've pointed out I've posted in your embassy, notice it's really just useless crap.

As for this issue, well it's been bugging me every since I've that little threat I got. For the public record it was a minor threat since we both knew he couldn't back it up. I hope that by bringing this up, whatever the truth actually is, it can have an effect.

So if my fears are unfounded then all I am is embrasssed. If my fears are founded them perhaps people will be more careful in the case where they haven't realised what they've been doing. In the case where they do know then hopefully guilt will stop them from further pursuing that path.

Being embrassed seemed like a good trade off for me compared to what could be achieved.

laurentius · January 15, 2004, 10:57

Thought to drop by...

Drogue · January 15, 2004, 13:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
I think I'm not allowed to help the hive anymore. I've also decided that I can't look in any forums I didn't originally have access to just in case something slips while I chat. As for what you've pointed out I've posted in your embassy, notice it's really just useless crap.

That is true, and thank you for alaying my fears

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
As for this issue, well it's been bugging me every since I've that little threat I got. For the public record it was a minor threat since we both knew he couldn't back it up. I hope that by bringing this up, whatever the truth actually is, it can have an effect.

So if my fears are unfounded then all I am is embrasssed. If my fears are founded them perhaps people will be more careful in the case where they haven't realised what they've been doing. In the case where they do know then hopefully guilt will stop them from further pursuing that path.

IMHO, from what I know, your fears are unfounded. But I will look into the coversation to check. If there was pressure, or a threat, I am assured it was unintentional.

Kody · January 15, 2004, 19:39

Thanks

Snowflake · January 16, 2004, 00:37

I am sorry that I have not dropped in sooner. Kody had not been given the Hive any information as far as I know. I would like to make this clear so nobody was under the false impression.

Secondly, I would like to second Kody's concern. Simply because Kody left the team it doesn't make it ok to try to extract Hive related information from him. Also we are aware that certain Hive member(s) has been communicating with other teams (CyCons in this case) and giving them team related information. Some of the info are ture and should have stayed confidential, others are simply discussions or proposals that are not even decided within the team. I personally feel that this is not a good thing to encourage.

While I agree with Drogue that personal friends should not be asked to stop chatting with each other, I have to agree with Kody's disagreement to the belief that are shared by some of us that it is ok to obtain information anyway you can. Yes sometimes somebody may feel like boasting say when an SP was completed, however there is a difference in the attitude of the receiver side of such information. Before Tass became a god when he told Voltaire that he had the password of one of the team, Voltaire said "don't attempt me with information that is obtained illegally." I feel this should be the attitude that we encourage.

If we truly are thinking about this logically, we will realize that the short term gain of obtaining information may not be as great as the long term loss of losing trust and basis for better relationship between the two teams.

Kody · January 16, 2004, 01:19

Quote:

Simply because Kody left the team it doesn't make it ok to try to extract Hive related information from him.

No that's not the main reason, although he asked how I thought the hive would do in I think the 2nd conversation or maybe it was the 4th conversation (there were multiple conversations as I was waiting to see where he was going). Anyway for the record it wasn't anything like trying to extract information after I had left the Hive.

Rather I think he was trying to get "Forced Impartiality" one way or another, he never directly said it so I had to figure it out afterwards. I believe he was just manveouring to make sure I wouldn't talk to any hive members ever again. Just the way he went about it wasn't very gentlemanly.

No rules were broken with that, although it was enough to pause my departure from the ACDG.

Kody · January 16, 2004, 02:40

Honghu,

I appreciate your support, but don't want this to cause diplomatic problems. You are a high profile diplomat after all. The reason why I never made this thread while I was still in the hive.

So may be a good idea to end the discussion while people aren't upset?