Stupid alliance rules

civman2000 · January 17, 2004, 22:44

Hadn't played civ for awhile, then got conquests, started the napoleon scenario as france. Now, it's 1803 and the stupid alliance rules have screwed me over.

First, I made an MPP with the ottomans early on. They soon joined my war against the dutch (hahaha, they helped me quite a lot in that one!). However, when I wiped out the dutch, they treated it as if I had broken the MPP!! As a result, they were annoyed with me and I couldn't make another MPP for the rest of the game.

Second, and much, much, worse, the locked alliance with denmark has completely ruined the game. Throughout the game, I used military alliances to keep prussia, russia, the ottomans, spain, and at first austria from attacking me. Eventually austria did attack me, and then I had all of my allies join me against them. However, just as I'm beginning my campaign, the stupid Danish make peace with Austria, and suddenly I'm at peace too. What's more, now the entire world hates me for breaking military alliances and I have no way to keep anyone happy. Locked alliances should not make other civ's peace treaties force you to make peace too!

vmxa1 · January 17, 2004, 22:57

Yes that is how they work in most games. You ned to take that into consideration. If you had poor relationships with a civ and make an alliance you can get points for events tha tmake you look better to the civ. Once the alliance is over (war stops) you lose all of the bonus points you accured and revert back.
It may be even worse as you could have commited acts that will
hurt you during the war that help at the time. IOW you could come out of it in worse relations than before.

civman2000 · January 17, 2004, 23:43

Certainly I should take it into consideration, but it shouldn't happen in the first place! The second thing may be as intended (though should still be somehow tweaked), but the first is definitely a bug.

CerberusIV · January 18, 2004, 06:58

Part of the way this scenario is set up and intended to work is that most of the other civs are meant to try and dogpile on the French (historically the wars of this period were mostly France vs. the rest). The locked alliance with Denmark brings this about.

It isn't a problem in the epic game without locked alliances and where you choose who to sign up with.

steven8r · January 19, 2004, 15:03

You may also be taking a rep hit because when you eliminated the Dutch, you effectively broke your MPP w/ Ottomans. The Treaty was canceled (rightly or not) before the 20-turn, no-fault expiration period.

The only way that I can think of to not have the Ottomans think less of you would have been to keep the Dutch alive until the 20 turns was up, then cancel MPP w/ Ottomans then destroy the Dutch. PITA!!!

Steven

vmxa1 · January 19, 2004, 17:10

Even without any of that, duringthe war if you razed cities and such you are getting point against you. During the war and MPP they are counted as good point, but after the AI is noting that you razed ciies and will lower it standing with you.

So those types of events can swing you to annoyed after the expiration of the MPP, even though you were on polite terms before.

Read the tread on AI attitudes.

Ijuin · January 20, 2004, 08:50

Is it just me, or is it completely illogical for you to ally with another civ to fight a war against a third civ, and then have your ally suddenly hate you because you WON the war that the alliance was created to fight? If anything, they should be pleased that their enemy was defeated! Did England hate America for the defeat of Germany in WWII? No, they were glad that Germany had been defeated!

Gramphos · January 20, 2004, 08:58

Well, one thing about Civ3 diplomacy is that it isn't complex ennough to include multiple player deals. Maybe Civ4 will allow you to have negotiations with both your allay and the common enemy at once and agree on peace terms that would effect both civs, so that you in an effective way could end a war in an alliance as a win, and than not have the rep hit since it was won together. As it's now every act is an act of it's own, and you can't do an act for an alliance.

vmxa1 · January 20, 2004, 15:23

Ijuin you maybe right, but that is sort fo what happened to WWII USSR and the USA. Allies during the war and enemies after it.

civman2000 · January 20, 2004, 15:28

Quote:

Ijuin you maybe right, but that is sort fo what happened to WWII USSR and the USA. Allies during the war and enemies after it.

However, that was not a result of the US or USSR destroying Germany, but because the USSR was annoyed that the US wasn't helping the war effort enough, among other political things. That is the exact opposite of the way it works in civ.