Claustrophobia: Try something new

[Enigma_Nova]

All right, I've been designing a map which is quite unlike any other you're likely to have seen.
Continue reading ONLY if you want to try something new.

It's an 8 x 16 scenario, but there is a challenge:
The way I've placed the bases, you can't start an attack until -something- changes the game map.
I've turned off unity pods so no earthquake...

Each player starts in the middle of a 3x3 island.
There's a rocky + mins bonus on the corners, and a rainy nut bonus on the edges. The island is covered in jungle, uranium and rivers.
There's a problem: FUNGUS.
You have to clear it first!

The rules:
Play is at Transcend
All victories on
No unity pods, no random events.
Restart eliminated players is OFF
...
8 x 16 map, 6 factions (hence the name Claustrophobia)
50-70% ocean
Dense clouds
Hilly terrain
Abundant life

Exploits allowed:
No reloads, no changing citizens in the F4 screen.
All else is good to go. (Get your rovers from your probes and your Stockpile in your queue!)

People can pick the faction they want...
Gaians and CyCon have been called.

[Snowflake]

So nowhere to expand until flex. Looks to me the game is very unbalanced toward factions that can eat fungus in the start? Uni may be worth of a try for its early research ability. Other functions do not seem to be attractive at all ... Or was I being too narrow minded?

[Flubber]

Seems wild-- If I am understanding the setup correctly, there is no way to meet, build a base, build a ship or anything until you change your landlocked situation

I'll take the university

[Maniac]

Interesting... I might be interested. Can I reserve a spot until I think what faction to play?

[Maniac]

There's a rocky + mins bonus on the corners, and a rainy nut bonus on the edges

Is that on ALL edges and corners, meaning four nuts and four mins, or only one per island?

[Maniac]

Unless the aliens or the pirates are allowed for me it's a difficult choice between the Gaians or the Peacekeepers. But I think I'll go for Lal. I'll have formers somewhat later than the rest of you, but his other advantages will hopefully make up for that.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Flubber
If I am understanding the setup correctly, there is no way to meet, build a base, build a ship or anything until you change your landlocked situation

That's right. I was wrong when I talked about flex.

[Flubber]

Do you have this done and available as a Single player scenario-- I am thinking I might want to give it a try as a SP. (I guess I could try to duplicate the map myself since the layout of the 6 islands would have to be in 2 rows of 3 to fit in a map that is 8x16)

As I am thinking about it, I find the premise interesting but I am wondering if it would make for an interesting PBEM . . . . won't everyone have to spend the first x years ( 20 or 30) clearing fungus and terraforming with no exploration or expansion possible??

I am wondering if there is sufficient gameplay fun in it to keep people's interest as we try to get through what should be a pretty uneventful first several months. Why not clear the fungus or give everyone centauri ecology plus a solar on an energy special to speed things along.

Otherwise with no meetings and no possibilities to trade or steal tech, the movement up the tech tree will be very slow ( although discoveries are accelerated on a smaller map are they not??)

[laurentius]

Looks cool enigma, and im still cycon

[Flubber]

Just to be clear-- I'll play it, I just don't see the advantage of covering everything with fungus-- its a huge advantage to the factions with centauri ecology or those that can get it right away

I'll be quiet now

[Maniac]

I agree with Flubber. Though without fungus, we should make a rule that everyone HAS to found their base in the middle of the island.

[H0bbes]

With the advantage towards factions with Cent Ecol etc. as explained above; why not allow multiple cloned factions? Googlie has plenty available. I'm interested on that basis.

[johndmuller]

I might be interested in playing this too, assuming it was balanced along some of the lines already mentioned.

Certainly there are some factions more suited than others for this sort of thing, so some accomodation needs to be made like the cloned factions and/or additional free techs (i.e. CentEcol for all and something extra for Dee).

Another fix could be an additional design for a 'Unity Former' unit with no prerequisite tech, so all could build formers right out of the box.

Of course, that begs the question of why bother with the fungus then? But ... that is the essence of this challenge, so presumably it needs to be kept.

Attached a slightly larger map (16x24 in the games terms, or 16x12 actual dimensions) file with 7 factions (its mostly for the visual effect, I didn't add all the stuff or check all the terrain very closely, so it would need some more work still).

Probably if we play with this general idea, we could come up with some interesting variations that were fair, interesting and quick to play.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by HongHu
So nowhere to expand until flex.

Do or die is on.
Disband your first base, you lose everything, and I shall poke you repeatedly with my gnarled staff of mocking.
You'll need Env Econ (or a sea rise) before you can go anywhere.
Considering that it's feasable to have 35 minerals per base for 6 bases, that may be possible.

Looks to me the game is very unbalanced toward factions that can eat fungus in the start?

Hence the dibs on deedee.
But you can bet that with a 5-1-2 square under that 2-0-0 square I'll be ripping up fungus like crazy.
Also, the 1-7-2 square is kinda nice.
Did I mention that the oceans are full of fungus, but have energy bonuses?

Uni may be worth of a try for its early research ability. Other functions do not seem to be attractive at all ... Or was I being too narrow minded?

It depends on how you play. Uni and Gaians are the only realistic ones for first out of the box.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Maniac
Is that on ALL edges and corners, meaning four nuts and four mins, or only one per island?

Yes, sir!
but you need to pull up the fungus to get to them! :P

Aliens have a bit of a jump here. I suppose I could let you play them - Lular H'minee was my second choice behind Deirdre Skye.

As for the Pirates, I'd make your first base a landlocked base, just like for everyone else. You're stuck with a free tech that's useless and a whole lot of sea squares that you can't use, and I shall poke you repeatedly with my gnarled staff of mocking.

...
So do you want H'minee or Marr?
Note that you'll still start with ONE colony pod. I'll swap your scout patrol for your mark 1 ogre.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Flubber
Do you have this done and available as a Single player scenario-- I am thinking I might want to give it a try as a SP. (I guess I could try to duplicate the map myself since the layout of the 6 islands would have to be in 2 rows of 3 to fit in a map that is 8x16)

Attaching the Map.
If you want to make the scenario, slam down some pods and scouts and get it rolling!

As I am thinking about it, I find the premise interesting but I am wondering if it would make for an interesting PBEM . . . . won't everyone have to spend the first x years ( 20 or 30) clearing fungus and terraforming with no exploration or expansion possible??

Yes, but said years will go by fairly quickly.

Why not clear the fungus or give everyone centauri ecology plus a solar on an energy special to speed things along.

I'll make a 'rediculously terraformed' challenge (native life off, of course) game after this, on a somewhat bigger map.
It will probably be a lightning fast game for Mim or Santi unless I make the b*stard a really big map.

Otherwise with no meetings and no possibilities to trade or steal tech, the movement up the tech tree will be very slow ( although discoveries are accelerated on a smaller map are they not??)

Accelerated HEAPS.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by H0bbes
With the advantage towards factions with Cent Ecol etc. as explained above; why not allow multiple cloned factions? Googlie has plenty available. I'm interested on that basis.

Yes, that's the idea.
Now, do we go Deedee, Zak, or H'minee?

NOTE that for H'minee, I'll be reposessing your ogre and extra pod... have a nice day.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by johndmuller
I might be interested in playing this too, assuming it was balanced along some of the lines already mentioned.

Certainly there are some factions more suited than others for this sort of thing, so some accomodation needs to be made like the cloned factions and/or additional free techs (i.e. CentEcol for all and something extra for Dee).

Cloned factions might be a decent idea...
How do I do that again?
I'd like to give Deirdre Biogenetics and a free rec tanks, but that would mean I'd have to found the bases myself - I don't know how to 'scenario edit' a game in progress. >_<

All good ideas, but I don't know how to implement them!
...how on earh would I add a 'unity former' to this game, anyway...

[Enigma_Nova]

So I take it the idea's been nerfed?

I could edit some factions, e.g. giving free rectanks to deedee and allowing the rest to have centeco, but that would increase the amount of download greatly.

I can edit alphax.txt easily enough, but I don't know how to get a custom alphax.txt to work with my scenario.
Nor do I know of any way to edit a game once it is in progress...

[Maniac]

I could edit some factions, e.g. giving free rectanks to deedee and allowing the rest to have centeco

You say research is accelerated heaps. If therefore it would only take a few turns for everyone to get EcoEng, it wouldn't make much a difference whether or not all factions get CentEco from the start, so then you could leave it as is.

but that would increase the amount of download greatly.

The participating faction's characteristics are stored in the save file, so you don't need to include custom factions in the download. Also AFAIK it's also possible to make a scenario where you just give everyone the CentEco tech manually and build DeeDee's base and give her a rec tanks, instead of editing the faction files (if at least that was what you planned to do. I assumed so as a consequence of you saying the download would be increased greatly).

...how on earh would I add a 'unity former' to this game, anyway...

In the alphax.txt #UNITS section IIRC. I can't open an alphax.txt now though, so I could be wrong.

I can edit alphax.txt easily enough, but I don't know how to get a custom alphax.txt to work with my scenario

IIRC you need to temporarily replace the standard alphax.txt by the edited alphax.txt in the main SMAC directory. Then when you create the scenario, the edited alpha.txt is stored in the scenario file.

Nor do I know of any way to edit a game once it is in progress...

A game in progress? The game isn't yet in progress, no? It still needs to be created.

Aliens have a bit of a jump here. I suppose I could let you play them

They start with 5 techs and IIRC a former. Wouldn't that be unbalancing? Though of course once contact is made between other factions, they'll lose greatly as they don't have commerce.

[johndmuller]

Below is the original #Units table modified to add a "Unity Former", which will let anyone build one with no tech requirements. Note that all that was changed was the number at the beginning (from 23 to 24) and adding the "Unity Former" line at the end, with 'None' as its prerequisite.

#UNITS
24
Colony Pod,             Infantry, Colony Pod,   Scout,      8, 0, 0, None,    -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Formers,                Infantry, Formers,      Scout,      9, 0, 0, Ecology, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Scout Patrol,           Infantry, Gun,          Scout,      3, 0, 0, None,    -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Transport Foil,         Foil,     Transport,    Scout,      7, 0, 0, DocFlex, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
*Sea Formers,           Foil,     Formers,      Scout,      9, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Supply Crawler,         Infantry, Supply,       Scout,     10, 0, 0, IndAuto, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Probe Team,             Speeder,  Probe Team,   Scout,     11, 0, 0, PlaNets, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Alien Artifact,         Infantry, Artifact,     Scout,     12,10, 0, Disable,  2, 00000000000000000000000000
Mind Worms,             Infantry, Psi,          Psi,        1, 5, 0, CentEmp,  3, 00000000000000000000000000
Isle of the Deep,       Foil,     Psi,          Psi,        7, 8, 4, CentMed, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Locusts of Chiron,      Gravship, Psi,          Psi,        4,10, 0, CentGen, -1, 00000000000000000000100000
Unity Rover,            Speeder,  Gun,          Scout,      3, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Unity Scout Chopper,    Copter,   Gun,          Scout,      4, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000100000
Unity Foil,             Foil,     Transport,    Scout,      7, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00100000000000000000000000
Sealurk,                Foil,     Psi,          Psi,        6, 6, 0, CentPsi,  4, 00000000000000000001000000
Spore Launcher,         Infantry, Psi,          Psi,        0, 5, 0, Bioadap,  5, 00000000001000000000000000
Battle Ogre MK1,        Infantry, R-Laser,      3-Res,      0,10, 0, Disable,  6, 00010000000000000000000000
Battle Ogre MK2,        Infantry, R-Bolt,       8-Res,      0,15, 0, Disable,  6, 10010000000000000000000000
Battle Ogre MK3,        Speeder,  String,       Stasis,     0,20, 0, Disable,  6, 10010000000000000000000000
Fungal Tower,           Infantry, Psi,          Psi,        3, 0, 0, Disable,  1, 00000000000000000000000000
Unity Mining Laser,     Infantry, Laser,        Scout,      0, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Sea Escape Pod,         Foil,     Colony Pod,   Scout,      8, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Unity Gunship,          Foil,     Gun,          Scout,     -1, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Unity Former,           Infantry, Formers,      Scout,      9, 0, 0, None,    -1, 00000000000000000000000000

One could also use 'Disable' instead of 'None' and manually give each player 1 of them with the Scenario Editor. With 'Disable', the players would not be able to build any additional formers until they researched Centauri Ecology. That way, Dee would still have a bit of an advantage with her automatic CentEcol (so that it wouldn't really be necessary to find and assign a different starting tech for her so that it wouldn't be necessary to change the Gaian's faction file), but not such an extreme advantage; it would still be worthwhile for the others to research CentEcol.

Of course, before getting into changing any of the .txt files in the game, it is a good idea to back up the original(s) and put it(them) in a safe place. I also find it to be a good idea to make frequent backups of the scenario and map files to deal with the foibles of those editors. I haven't used the faction editor, but I understand that to be even flakier.

When I'm setting up a scenario, I place all the files I'm messing with into a new subdirectory of the 'Scenarios' subdirectory (including the map and the scenario file itself).

To bind the #Units changes (and also changes to the faction.txt files) into the Scenario, make sure that your revised version of the Alphax.txt is the one that is in the "Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri" directory when you run the program to create the Scenario (the same for any revisions to the faction.txt files). There may be other ways to accomplish this as well - for example the documentation suggests that simply putting all the stuff into the same directory as the scenario is sufficient (but I don't believe that to be necessarily true, at least for making a PBEM), but this method seems to work for me. I don't recall whether or not editing an existing scenario automaticallly updates the bound information to that in the current environment, but it would be easy enough to check. Note that by no means does everything in the Alphax.txt file get incorporated into the scenario file, but the #Units table seems to be bound into the game, so it is unnecessary (and in fact not at all a good idea) for everyone to change their Alphax.txt files to play the game;same for the faction.txt files - in fact, with Scenario generated PBEMS, some of the displays, such as the faction profile and the graphics, are taken from the current settings on the player's system and may not reflect what is actually in effect in the game.

[Maniac]

Btw, I just played around a bit with Enigma's map. The tech cost for the first tech is the huge sum of *2* labs, so everyone will get CentEco soon anyway, and Dee and H'minee would probably only be able to profit from former one or two turns earlier;

[johndmuller]

In scenarios, it seems that not all techs are offered on the first turn;some are withheld as is normally the case after the first turn. Thus, 1 or 2 of us might be denied the opportunity to research CentEcol on the first round. It's maybe not a big deal with 2 or 3 turn research rates, but a 2-3 or 4-6 turn headstart is still a turn advantage (which might or might not be a significant comparative advantage in a game like this, but I doubt that we would be falling over each other to be one of the factions so blessed); OTOH is it a not a big deal to create the scenario with the formers available at the beginning either.

Since the tech offerings are not random, the players could probably be arranged so that the Gaians or Cult (i.e. those who don't need CentEcol) could be moved around in the turn order to places where CentEcol wasn't available. Some kind of special tweaking will probably also be necessary if there are multiple incarnations of the University, as the multiple versions sometimes behave differently viz-a-viz the timing as well as the content of their tech offerings and that kind of stands out when two supposedly identical factions get off to noticably different starts.

Certainly none of this stuff might make any significant difference - it might even turn out that some surprising faction like Morgan or the Spartans has some unsuspected advantage in this game.

BTW, it strikes me that we should seriously consider disabling or banning the WP, as it looks like it could be a game-breaking distortion for whomever gets it - probably the empath guild as well since whomever got that could enjoy a monopoly on trade for some time.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by johndmuller
In scenarios, it seems that not all techs are offered on the first turn;some are withheld as is normally the case after the first turn.

I can attest to that. In a pbem game I played as the Hive and didn't have Cent Eco as a starting option.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Maniac
The participating faction's characteristics are stored in the save file, so you don't need to include custom factions in the download.

So... if I make new factions, then have them play in the Scenario, then send the scenario over, you won't need to download any extra factions?

I still think they're pretty balanced as they are!

and build DeeDee's base and give her a rec tanks,

Enigma pokes Maniac
I -could- do that, but I'd prefer it if people were able to control their faction, rather than me play a part of their game.
I'm making a new faction file, free facility for Deedee.
Giving folks CentEco at the start.
Uni now has -3- techs at game start...

In the alphax.txt #UNITS section IIRC. I can't open an alphax.txt now though, so I could be wrong.

I've seen it done in the ACPSG, where a custom alphax.txt was used, and somehow played with the scenario.
Also, in Scenario 2 Build there's a custom alpha.txt also.
I'll see what I can do there.

A game in progress? The game isn't yet in progress, no? It still needs to be created.

Yes, that is true.
BTW, I'm making it so that interfactional diplomacy can be started before any in-game diplomacy.
Anyone interested in pouring all their resources into the WP? I'm looking for such an ally.

They start with 5 techs and IIRC a former.

Extra ogre: Nerfed
Extra colony pod: Nerfed
Now they're just guys with attack/defense bonueses and a free energy bank.
No Formers detected...

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Maniac
Btw, I just played around a bit with Enigma's map. The tech cost for the first tech is the huge sum of *2* labs,

Transcend stagnates the tech or something, doesn't it?
I'm giving you all the free eco tech anyway...
I'm editing Deedee to give her free rectanks - and I think I'll keep her faction file that way (sorta makes sense to me).

---

I'm playing the scenario through, and it looks like whomever gets a fungal pop on their 7 mins mine is at a huge disadvantage.
I suggest that people be able to make an infinite number of reloads until they actually get off their island, to balance this out.
(What exploring can you do anyway over a 3x3 box?)

I start the game at 2106 so everyone (cept Drones and Mim) gets their first research quickly.
REMINDER: Pre-game contact diplomacy is allowed and encouraged.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by johndmuller
BTW, it strikes me that we should seriously consider disabling or banning the WP, as it looks like it could be a game-breaking distortion for whomever gets it - probably the empath guild as well since whomever got that could enjoy a monopoly on trade for some time.

With research rates as they are, in the time it takes you to build the WP I've managed to get Eco Eng.
You'll only get one SP at the start, realistically.

The HGP
The WP
The VW
The ME
The PEG
The EG

By virtue of want, each of us will get one of these, and by limited production ONLY one of these.

[johndmuller]

I'd be against the infinite reload rule.

I don't understand what you mean with

BTW, I'm making it so that interfactional diplomacy can be started before any in-game diplomacy.

. If you are talking about unannounced secret teams, that sounds kind of wierd and where do you draw the line as to what kind of stuff can be transmitted under the radar?

I played some (as Yang) using your map as an SP game and after a while was getting >Pops< about every other turn, damaging one or another of my lots at a comparable rate to how fast I was able to build them back (although that would be a function of various choices I made - like not having fungicide tanks). Also, there were drop-ins by visiting MW's and Spore Launchers even more often; I even appreciated being landlocked when I started seeing all those big SeaLurks cruising around; it all made the game very entertaining. It seemed that the AI factions didn't do so well, however; several of them got eliminated by the NL, and the rest were either also dead or pretty much at zero on the power chart.

I'm not sure what the point of starting at 2106 would be, but it's not really mportant (although I have been considering the Drones).

You are correct that one can get to EnvEco fairly quickly (although I think that the tech costs will be higher (although still cheap, no doubt) in a scenario based game), I still think that the WP could be unbalancing - once you crank up some of those corner plots, it doesn't really take very long to build an SP if you want to, and beelining to EnvEco is at the expense of other important stuff. As for the EG, I think it is unbalancing because of the ability to trade with everyone else without them being able to trade with each other (and I ordinarily am against disabling the EG).

[Enigma_Nova]

Do you have any idea how unbalancing it would be for a faction to have one of their corner posts popped when they're doing the SP binge?

I see no harm to come out of reloads before we meet other players.
As for pre-contact diplomacy, I'll make the diplo thread when the game begins. There, we can scheme and plot.

Oh, and if you have doubts about the WP, then play the Drones on the Second turn spot and build the damn thing yourself!
The Game is gonna be broken eventually by whomever gets their second base first.

So the WP won't be a game breaker if you've got an army on standby prepared to take it. I can see the first land raise instantly prompting a mass rush of units from island to island, GREAT fun for Green Deedee.

[Maniac]

Hmm, on second thought I would opt not to participate in this scenario, as I would rather not have the current modifications to the Gaians and Caretakers. However if I'm correct there are already six other people interested in participating as well (Enigma, laurentius, HongHu, Flubber, johndmuller and Hobbes), so this hopefully won't form a problem.