Thread Tools
Old January 23, 2004, 01:33   #31
:) Smiley
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
Emperor
 
:) Smiley's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: hippieland, CA
Posts: 3,781
Losing tanks to spearmen means you need to get Modern Armor.
__________________
Visit First Cultural Industries
There are reasons why I believe mankind should live in cities and let nature reclaim all the villages with the exception of a few we keep on display as horrific reminders of rural life.-Starchild
Meat eating and the dominance and force projected over animals that is acompanies it is a gateway or parallel to other prejudiced beliefs such as classism, misogyny, and even racism. -General Ludd
:) Smiley is offline  
Old January 23, 2004, 03:27   #32
Dain
Settler
 
Local Time: 16:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 28
You will always have these kinds of issues in games where realism clashes with playability issues, especially if the scope of the game is so broad like Civ's is in taking a Civilisation through so many different time periods.

How do you make the tank vs spearman both playable and realistic? I do not think you can. If you remove the mathematical odds for weaker units winning battles then it is just going to be just a technological race.

Reality is very few civilisations were so poorly advanced that they faced opponents who had a massive technological superiority. English in Africa, Spain in South America and a few others were examples of technological superiority but nobody every rolled up to the ancient Aztec empire with tanks.

In the real world the whole world benefits from technological development, moreso to the ones making the developments, but you just do not face severe technological variances in real life in our history.

But even with technological inferiority the Zulu did have have some notable victories over the English, as did the American Indians over the Americans, even in modern times the Vietnamese were able, with very limited technology, to have success against a technologically supoerior force in the Americans.

So should a spearman occassionally defeat a tank? As long as it is within acceptable mathematical ranges I do not have a problem with it.

If a civ is defending with spearmen and I have tanks then its as good as dead anyway, I do not really care about losses, never do I fight a battle where I am not prepared to take lots of casualties.

I expect to lose alot of units in fights even with careful use of tactics to minimise those losses. If I lose less than I expected then its just a bonus.

On the difficulty levels i play it is uncommon to see the AI with a severe technological disadvantage, they pass out tech to eachother like its worthless.

I think a much simpler solution is if you dislike seeing those unrealistic battles then increase the difficulty level, I can almost guarantee you wont be facing any spearman with your tanks in Sid mode. :P

If you are frequently outpacing the AI that fast in tech then you are playing on too low a level for it to be challenging.
Dain is offline  
Old January 23, 2004, 03:30   #33
MrWhereItsAt
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameCivilization II Democracy GamePtWDG RoleplayAlpha Centauri PBEMSpanish CiversCall to Power Democracy GameCivilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontPtWDG2 Latin LoversACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansC3CDG The Lost BoysCivilization III Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton Team
Deity
 
MrWhereItsAt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:31
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: That's DR WhereItsAt...
Posts: 10,157
Re: the whole spearman tank thingy
Quote:
Originally posted by WackenOpenAir
i think most people just like more predictable outcomes of a battle.

So do i.

Also, in my oppinion should for example the chance that normal warrior in hills or fortified loses to a conscript attacking warrior be pretty darn small. Unlike it is now.

In order to decrease the chances of extreme outcomes, i would prefer ALL hitpoints to be doubled. (4-6-8-10 for conscript to elite)
An intriguing idea. I used the Combat Calculator to test this out, and found that the chances of the two events you have mentioned drop from :

Quote:
the chance that normal warrior in hills...loses to a conscript attacking warrior
17.9% to 10% with your hp change, and

Quote:
the chance that normal warrior...fortified...loses to a conscript attacking warrior
21% to 13%.

These are appreciable drops to approximately half of the previous occurence. Also, an hp change would be, as Catt suggests, easy to do for ALL units all at once with the editor. Then all you would need to do is adjust bombardment ROFs by an amount so Artillery are not useless (maybe just double their ROFs too). The one bugbear could be Armies. And that would be a reason for changing hp in preference to adjusting a/d values too. Aside from the need to carefully change every unit's values individiually, you would need to think long and hard about the army bonuses to these two values, as I think they are hardcoded.
__________________
Consul.

Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!
MrWhereItsAt is offline  
Old January 23, 2004, 03:43   #34
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
"American Indians over the Americans, even in modern times the Vietnamese were able, with very limited technology, to have success against a technologically supoerior force in the Americans."

I think this one matches up well with the game. If you consider that some battles were won, but the total numbers were about 50K dead US and now Vietnam says they lost about 2M ( I think they count non combatants as well).

This is about what the spears vs tank would be in the game.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old January 24, 2004, 17:14   #35
Underseer
Warlord
 
Underseer's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: in the general vicinity of Chicago
Posts: 146
Nicely written, Dain, and I agree wholeheartedly.

Honestly, the spearman vs. tank thing happens pretty rarely. As for the pikeman vs. calvary, someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't spear-using units get a defense bonus vs mounted units? Maybe that bonus shouldn't be applied to calvary since they use firearms, but all in all I don't have a problem with this either.

The nature of asymmetric combat annoyed me when I first started playing Civ3, but as time unfolds it bothers me less and less. Adjust to the way things are, change them in the editor (most games don't give you that option, be thankful), or play a different game. No need to get worked up about it.
__________________
"It's great to be known, but it's even better to be known as strange." --Takeshi Kaga
Underseer is offline  
Old January 24, 2004, 17:21   #36
Underseer
Warlord
 
Underseer's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: in the general vicinity of Chicago
Posts: 146
Oh, as for the American Indians vs. Americans, the disparity isn't quite what people think.

Between the first European settlers arriving and the Civil War, the difference in fire power was fairly low. The Europeans' weapons had more stopping power, range and accuracy, but an abysmal fire rate. By contrast a skilled indigenous warrior could pretty much fill the air with arrows using his short bow. Besides, those old muskets were awfully finicky and lots could go wrong with them. After the Civil War repeating rifles were invented which finally gave the guns full superiority over bows, but by then most natives had access to firearms through trade.

For example, Custer's Last Stand happened the way it did mostly because the Dakota had repeating rifles and Custer's men were using single shot firearms. In the end it was not differences in the technology of war that did in indigenous nations, but difference in population sizes.
__________________
"It's great to be known, but it's even better to be known as strange." --Takeshi Kaga
Underseer is offline  
Old January 24, 2004, 22:14   #37
Kuciwalker
Deity
 
Kuciwalker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
Quote:
Originally posted by Underseer
Nicely written, Dain, and I agree wholeheartedly.

Honestly, the spearman vs. tank thing happens pretty rarely. As for the pikeman vs. calvary, someone correct me if I'm wrong but don't spear-using units get a defense bonus vs mounted units? Maybe that bonus shouldn't be applied to calvary since they use firearms, but all in all I don't have a problem with this either.

The nature of asymmetric combat annoyed me when I first started playing Civ3, but as time unfolds it bothers me less and less. Adjust to the way things are, change them in the editor (most games don't give you that option, be thankful), or play a different game. No need to get worked up about it.
The pike bonus vs Horse units isn't in C3.
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
Kuciwalker is offline  
Old January 24, 2004, 23:06   #38
Rasputin
lifer
DiploGamesThe Courts of Candle'Bre
Deity
 
Rasputin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:31
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Between Coast and Mountains
Posts: 14,475
just use more than one cavalry , wipe them out ...
__________________
GM of MAFIA #40 ,#41, #43, #45,#47,#49-#51,#53-#58,#61,#68,#70, #71
Rasputin is offline  
Old January 25, 2004, 16:32   #39
Underseer
Warlord
 
Underseer's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: in the general vicinity of Chicago
Posts: 146
Quote:
The pike bonus vs Horse units isn't in C3.
I stand corrected. My overall conclusion remains, however.
__________________
"It's great to be known, but it's even better to be known as strange." --Takeshi Kaga
Underseer is offline  
Old January 27, 2004, 11:44   #40
jeff76
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 17:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Brussels, Belgium, from Québec though
Posts: 51
There's another solution to the original problem (first post of the Thread). It takes a bit more time but is a lot better. Leave the ancient units as they are, give one extra HP to every middle-ages units, two to industrial ones and three to modern ones. then you add attack points to artillery units according to the era. Let's say +1 for Middle-ages, +2 for industrial and +3 for modern.
This way you don't loose tank to spearman and artillery is not unbalanced

What do you all think about this ?
__________________
To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated, regimented, closed in, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, evaluated, censored, commanded; all by creatures that have neither the right, nor wisdom, nor virtue... "Proudhon"
jeff76 is offline  
Old January 27, 2004, 19:07   #41
Dain
Settler
 
Local Time: 16:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally posted by jeff76
There's another solution to the original problem (first post of the Thread). It takes a bit more time but is a lot better. Leave the ancient units as they are, give one extra HP to every middle-ages units, two to industrial ones and three to modern ones. then you add attack points to artillery units according to the era. Let's say +1 for Middle-ages, +2 for industrial and +3 for modern.
This way you don't loose tank to spearman and artillery is not unbalanced

What do you all think about this ?
If that makes you happy then go for it. For me the odds of finding a spearman when I have tanks is lower than the odds of the spearman beating my tank so its not really a concern for me.

Changing the hp will just make the game harder if you are missing a resource like iron early or saltpeter and you are using inferior units. In most cases you will struggle to take what you need off the AI if they are using better units and they have more hp.
Dain is offline  
Old January 28, 2004, 01:30   #42
Rasputin
lifer
DiploGamesThe Courts of Candle'Bre
Deity
 
Rasputin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:31
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Between Coast and Mountains
Posts: 14,475
i just hate fiddling withy the editor, i only like playing the virgin game....
__________________
GM of MAFIA #40 ,#41, #43, #45,#47,#49-#51,#53-#58,#61,#68,#70, #71
Rasputin is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:31.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team