I think its time for a divorce

Grumbold · January 21, 2004, 13:33

I've been head-over-heels in love with Paradox since EU1. The games were interesting and a whole new approach. Freedom to do as you like but with historical events to give you a strong flavour of the life and times you were in. A few glitches and crashes were minor discomforts to put up with.

Unfortunately now I think I have to walk away. I can accept each game arriving as a work in progress. I can accept some features remaining "working as designed" when they seem to be begging for a fix. What I have had enough of is the arbitrary "fixes" that change whole areas of gameplay seemingly without a thought for balance. Victoria 1.0 was unfinished, true. Then 1.01 comes along and makes craftsmen useless without labourers but they don't adjust the many countries they created with a craftsman/no labourer workforce. Then 1.02 comes along and castrates production completely while turbocharging partisans to the point of insanity. Meanwhile the ability to become civilised moves from being prestige based (odd. but empowering) to event-only, promptly marginalising 90% of the playable countries for whome no event is written.

Paradox has got several games under their belt yet its the same poor guys still trying to "fix" every game they ever wrote and seeming to pick the most bizarre ways of doing so. Once CK arrives its going to be EU2/HoI/Vickie AND CK clamouring for an ever-smaller piece of that pie (ignoring the Svea Rike clones as too small to be relevant.) I've tried paying money for their games and recommending them to everyone in an attempt to see them expand and mature. Instead they seem to pick oddball partnerships (why Slitherine why???) and plough on in the same small scale bodge it way. I think its time to hold back my cash and point people at the no doubt lackluster scores it will generate in the mainstream media. Maybe that might have more effect.

JCG · January 21, 2004, 18:13

Yes, they do seem to have screwed up a bit balance-wise with 1.02, by their own admission, perhaps in the rush to get it out for Christmas (and 1.01 for release)...but now they're doing some of the required balancing for 1.03 instead, from what I can tell.

Of course, the game will never be fully perfect, I just hope that they'll do a good amount of balancing and bug-fixing (while waiting for a couple of MODs) with the next patch or two.

Other than that...well, you're free to make your own choices....all I can say is that, since you know very well how Paradox operates, it's up to you (and your wallet) to decide whether it's a satisfactory procedure or not
(I believe it is, since I find the game relatively fun in its current state and have enough patience...but that's just me).

ravagon · January 22, 2004, 01:53

I think this is a little harsh.
The presumption being that Paradox' admittedly premature release program would actually change over time as they grew more.

I was never able to get EU1 (well not before EU2 came out anyway) and by the time I had EU2 the current patch was 1.06 which I still use as often as 1.07.
HoI though I had right from the get go.
Initially buggy but usable the patches went through the seesaw route of over-compensating and rebalancing, much the same as Victoria will be doing in the near future.
It wouldn't be the ideal way I'd try and patch something if I were in their place but then they might just possibly know a few things that I don't so I'll leave it to their judgement.
There's also evidence that they're trying to put both EU2 and HoI to bed in the next patch so I would tend to think that'd take a fair bit off their workload.

Obviously if they were to keep pouring out more and more new items without ever finishing off the old ones they'd end up displeasing more and more customers as their support thereafter would be greatly diminished.
I don't think this is happening however - its just one of those rather busy times when they've almost finished a couple of projects and will shortly be able to put a great deal more focus on their more recent products.

That said though I do hope Victoria gets a new series of patches in the near future - At the present I'm actually playing EU2 while its been more playing around with Victoria...

pg · January 22, 2004, 09:15

i've only played eu2 and i'm not very interested in ck, hoi, or vicky given what i've seen(i've read a million threads at the paradox forums). are their other games really that bad compared to eu2(with it's hundreds of hours of gameplay)?

Grumbold · January 22, 2004, 11:57

No, I'd never accuse them of being bad. That is what makes them so frustrating. They are tantalisingly close to being extremely good but in the process of bugfixing they seem to introduce one or more really horrible bodges lately.

Cookie Monster · January 22, 2004, 12:27

Grumbold I am in agreement with you. Anticipating this I held off buying Victoria until I got a chance to read the forums. I'm glad I did.

I bought EU and HOI from them. Both great games IMHO. Never really had too many problems with EU but HOI was another story.

I bought HOI the day it came out and realized there were problems out of the box. After several patches I was disgusted and put the game away for 6+ months. Then I dl'd the latest patch and while I still found problems the game was "fixed" enough to enjoy again. That is a game with great potential but it will require more work. Will Paradox give it? My faith was restored in them somewhat from what they've done to HOI but I'm not 100% so sure about them yet.

Victoria won't be on my harddrive until the main complaints from the hardcore gamers is why are the CSA soldier sprites not grey enough?

Grumbold · January 23, 2004, 10:46

Lol!

I can play HoI in its current form but I still think its got horrible bodges in it to prevent min/maxing players getting away with things. The tech tree is so tangled that you can't achieve historical development speeds on some items even when putting hugely ahistorical amounts of research in. Paratroopers have been "fixed" so that they can still paradrop-capture but are still no use in a real battle. Naval battles are limited to 12 effective ships a side so the RN is neutered. Bombers get blown apart if they bomb a territory with a big stack in because every unit fires back, not just the one(s) bombed. All sorts of additions that just scream "game rule" when so much of the rest of it is trying to be painstakingly accurate. What depresses me is that this stuff is what was plugged in as part of the patches, not flaws in the original they haven't got round to fixing.

Oops I'm off again. I better stop now before my whole PC gets overtaken by all these ghastly Ebay adverts

Cookie Monster · January 23, 2004, 12:01

You make some good points there. Depressing really, HOI has so much potential but I'm not sure now it can ever be even 90% salvaged.

Hopefully WiF by Matrix games will be better.

Spaced Cowboy · January 28, 2004, 16:20

Holy crap, are you serious (about WiF), man I have the board version, and it rocks. Of course, finding someone to play with has been impossible.

Grumbold · February 5, 2004, 13:22

So far as i know WiF has been a sleeper product for years and they never even got round to releasing the AI free version that would even allow you to PBeM a game with friends. A solid WiF game with enemy AI is only a dream I think. While hex game developers still exist I've never seen one with that sort of ambition. The last big one I bought was Rise & Fall of the Third Reich and even that was let down by mediocre AI.

Agathon · February 14, 2004, 14:11

HOI is kinda disappointing. Try the CORE mods. They are supposed to work wonders.