Living on Chiron, my Musings on Social Engineering

[Blake]

I got to thinking about what certain Social Engineering settings are really about, what it means for a non-elected Leader to run a Democracy, or how you can end up with a Morganite Fundamentalism. Then I wrote it down, and here it is.


Politics

Police State: The police state is characterized by an extremely strong and deep chain of command, right at the top the faction leader, supreme dictator, where every level holds the level below at figurative gun point and secret police watch for anyone to slip up. The Police State excels at mobilizing human resources to where they are needed, regardless of whether or not the people are willing. Violence is considered the appropriate means of control. Dissenters disappear, and are either never seen again or return brainwashed, people are afraid to think for themselves or come up with new ideas. Under the Police State citizens are unhappy, but if they try to do anything about it get beaten ruthlessly by the police – The secret police monitors and “reeducates” any activists that might lead the population to wide scale revolt.
Democracy: Democracy in SMAC is not the representative Democracy practiced by Democratic nations, or Tyranny by the Majority; rather it’s a structure of command that gives more say to the people. The Democracy probably extends to the local council level rather than the faction leadership level, this would give Citizens considerably say in their community without compromising military and diplomatic issues, I feel this is a more likely form of Democracy than some sort of corrupt faction-wide democracy with only one party (the Faction Leaders). People feel freer under Democracy and there are no mechanisms in place to pressure them to go to war, hence a lack of support for the Military, the local community structure allows for expert (or local knowledge) application of solutions for specific communities/bases, improving efficiency and growth.
The basic Command Structure would be:
Faction Leader and corrupt cronies -> Base Governors + Local Community Council, either elected members or volunteers, that help make decisions regarding base operations and policy (a similar council may be present at leadership level)
Fundamentalism: While for Miriam this is a religious fundamentalism I feel that for other factions the government hammers home this message “That ours is a way of life worth fighting and dying for” and equally “That the other factions way of life are inferior” (this message may not be blared out over loudspeakers, but would be the natural result of the first message). Fundamentalism would promote factional pride. On the other hand it also breeds intolerance and hate. This has the positive side of making infiltration by enemy forces difficult (they stick out like sore thumbs), when the faction goes to war the people really do believe in the war so fight harder for it. Because of all the dogma shoved down their throats most the citizens stop thinking for themselves (or are too afraid to), hence the decline in research. Ultimately the population does exactly what the leaders want, much like under Police State. However the mechanism is based on mass brainwashing rather than fear.

Economics:

Free Market: This is I believe capitalism unleashed and untamed. What capitalism excels at is extracting every last joule of energy from its human resources (aka wage slaves). Citizens are left close to the breaking point and unhappy, the police are under-funded and ineffective (and probably equally unhappy). What capitalism excels at is extracting every last joule of energy - that is the bottom line. The name Free Market makes it a bit more palatable for the 90% of the population who gets a rotten deal, while the 10% who get a great deal have all the power anyway. From the faction leaders perspective, Free Market provides an excellent method to rapidly exploit resources and build infrastructure, it helps to ignore the human and enviroment costs.
Planned: Much how it sounds, everything is planned by the state and implemented by local authorities (once again a strong chain of command, with extensive use of computers and networks). And I mean everything, people may be able to choose their partners, but there might be things like birth quotas, children are probably state educated and even raised (for efficiency, allowing the parents to do assigned work). The education and work allocation system would result in citizens who all turn out alike and don’t really think for themselves all that much. There wouldn’t be much suffering under Planned, needs would be met with efficiency and exactness. There would also be little Joy.
Green: In some ways, Green would be a lot like Planned. Citizens would be forbidden from doing certain things by strict regulations, birth would be controlled (but in a different way to Planned). The fundamental aspect where Green differs is that it would aim to instill a love of life, nature and planet in citizens, and more through experiencing the joy of life rather than religious dogma. However this could extend to fanaticism at times – Green citizens clearly have no strong qualms about going to war (and sending their native friends to war) to preserve their way of life and further spread green values. Green has powerful positive aspects; citizens are less wasteful. Thinking and philosophy would be actively encouraged. Under Green citizens would be mostly happy, though strangers to lifestyles of luxury and excess.

Values:

Power: Power involves compulsory military service and an unshakable belief (or perhaps truism) in the need of being powerful to survive. The Industry penalty mostly comes from compulsory military service by the young people and perhaps a view that factory work is weak and inferior to the warrior’s way. Clearly under Power the citizens are extremely patriotic and more than willing to go to war. War, Fighting and Winning are considered Good Things, and this is a value instilled from early years.
Knowledge: Under Knowledge, thinking and the free flow of ideas are encouraged. It would be unlikely to find information copyright laws, in fact the very idea of hording information to gain a competitive edge would be alien and perhaps repulsive to the Citizens of a Knowledge state. The Open networks ensure efficiency (less reinventing the wheel) and cross-pollination of ideas. Citizens would be enlightened and well-read. Because the networks are so open and the regulation against information-hording it is easier to steal technology from factions with Knowledge values.
Wealth: Hard work and the “Rags to Riches” dream would be strongly promoted under Wealth, in fact many things would be promoted, commercial advertising would be everywhere and completely unrestricted as corporations pump out a never ending stream of new consumer goods & services for the hard working population to buy. The Citizen under Wealth can never have enough stuff and would always be trying to keep up with the Joneses. Generally speaking the leadership and capitalists have more to benefit from Wealth values than the population, although this is mostly true of the other values.

Next up, I muse on how various SE settings interact, including with factional ideologies & society.

Comments? Agreements? Disagreements? All very welcome.

[Marid Audran]

I've liked reading this specultative expose Blake; more in-depth than the pre-packaged datalinks SE descriptions.

Of course, you left out the future society models. But maybe they speak for themselves or are otherwise so far-flung they are open to just about any loose interpretation one cares to offer.

Factional bias would have a huge cultural difference (if not a practical in-game one). I'd like to hear your musing on what type of society a University running Police State/Planned/Knowledge would be vs. the Hive running the same SE choices. Equally disparate would be the Peacekeepers running Demo/Green/Power vs. the Spartan spin on Demo/Green/Power.

Out of your perception of the realities of a SE choice it seems like the most desireous society to live in would be Demo/Planned/Knowledge, as long as it wasn't terribly corrupt on the administrative "Pre-Destination" level for its citizens.

[Starfarer]

I've always wanted to try an Alpha Centauri roleplay. To see what it would be like to get several dozen people, pick seven (Or fourteen, if we were feeling really frisky and had enough players) to be the various factions, have the math-concious among us do all our math to tell us how we're doing as factions, but do it all in a roleplay perspective, with less emphasis on "winning the game" and more on experiencing what life on Chiron would truly be like.

Of course, as I am a roleplay fanatic, I eventually try to turn every fun thing I ever do into a roleplay (Which can be interesting after awhile... "I want to try a roleplay based on Castlevania... but without any Belmonts or Dracula!"... Trust me, it doesn't work out... *L*), but I really think such an idea would be interesting.

'Course, as with 99% of the RP ideas I try, it won't ever happen, but it's a nice dream, no?

[Blake]

I may get around to the Future socities, but really, the names almost say it all. Cybernetic = Embrace the Machines/Cybernet, Eudaimonic: Abundance, Sustainability, Happiness - Utopia, pretty much.. Thought Control: Direct manipulation of human resources.

The Hiverian Utopia

Of particular interest is the Hives ability to evade the efficiency penalties of Police State and Planned, in this case, the efficiency results in less research and energy, it is reasonable to assume that Police State and Planned stifle entrepreneurship and creativity. Because the Hives economy is already so weak, it is likely there is little to stifle in the first place.

The good Chairman Yang is probably a benevolent dictator, he really does want the best for his people, and he really believes that his way is the best way to run a society, Yang is also possibly the most intelligent faction leader of them all. But the pressing question is how does he shake off the inefficiency and achieve his Hiverian Utopia.

I believe that the Hive has an evolved values system and also embraces spirituality rather than rejecting it like Communist states of Earth have been prone to, these values would be far more eastern than western, and promote co-operation along with competition, community more so than individualism, in a Yin Yang sense Hive society would be balanced and whole, this achieved by the expertise of Chairman Yang.
Police State: The usual mechanism of control in Police State is fear, the Hive uses brainwashing – so to speak. Very few Hive citizens probably feel the need to rebel, they would understand that they are an important part of the whole that is The Hive. Without living in fear the citizens would be productive. How do Police work in The Hive? It’s quite simple really, Citizens feel safer when the police & military are around, police presence is comforting in a society so used to security. It is almost never nessecary for the Police to actively supress dissent.
Planned: Without doubt Chairman Yang follows some form of eastern religion or spiritualism, Yang would spend much time in meditation and contemplation. He would consider these extremely important, and it is likely that all Hive citizens are allowed time to meditate and engage in other religious or spiritual practice if they wish. While the normal planned society is without joy, the Hive citizens find joy in serving the Hive and in spirituality. In this sense Yang is no different to the lowest Drone, for Chairman Yang too serves the Human Hive.

From the very weak economy of the Hive it is clear that very few Hive citizens spend much time thinking and being creative, still they would mostly be content and find their work fulfilling.

One thing is for sure, life in Hive society was very difficult to comprehend for most people born on Earth, in the early years many that went down in Yang’s pod found the society oppressive and even unbearable, thus they revolted and formed the Free Drones faction. This revolution was engineered almost entirely by those who still remembered Earth, the subsequent generations felt little reason or desire to revolt. This problem was to be repeated every time the Hive conquered bases of other factions, ironically when a Hive base was captured the citizens were almost unable to function under the paradigms of other factions, cut of from The Hive they truly were nothing.

Datalinks – Of the Human Hive and Free Drones.

(Yes I made that up, it's safe to assume anything I quote is actually made up)

Random Aspects of Hive Society:
The Hive uses it's own language engineered by Yang to help manipulate the thoughts of citizens (that which cannot be said, generally cannot be thought). There are very few words for self, like Me, I. There are extra words for co-operation, relationships and serving.

The Hive doesn't have family units, in this sense making it even more extreme than normal Planned society. Everyone is cared for equally by The Hive, the Mother will generally actively partake in nursing and raising her child (to do otherwise would be cruel) but there is no notion of parents ownership of a child. Each child has many mothers, many fathers, many sisters and many brothers. That is how the Hive family works.

Hive society almost defies description; there are no parallels on Earth.

[The Mad Monk]

I would suggest that Free Market actually has generally well-off, prosperous workers -- workers that won't stand for martial law, and refuse to be sent off to some warfront when there is so much to live for at home.

Remember, Free Market dosen't produce more drones, it merely keeps you from militarily oppressing the drones you have.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
I would suggest that Free Market actually has generally well-off, prosperous workers -- workers that won't stand for martial law, and refuse to be sent off to some warfront when there is so much to live for at home.

Remember, Free Market dosen't produce more drones, it merely keeps you from militarily oppressing the drones you have.

It all depends on whether you have a benevolent Free Market arrangement wherein profits are shared via profit sharing and employee stock ownership i.e. how much allocation goes toward psych.

[SynthetGod8]

The Human Hive is also xenophobic. Hence the underground bases and the need for a vast network of internal security. Hive citizens can reject outside ideas more easily because they already know that to be with the Hive is to be useful and to work wholly with the State.

[Barinthus]

Yes, xenophobia fits the social mentality that the Hive has. I do not wish to offend anybody of a particular religion so I will not name it here. A while ago, I took a course titled Compartive Religions in which we looked at some mainstreamed and not so mainstreamed religions and examined how their doctrine and beliefs affect their lives and so on. Fastincating class. We also were required to visit few churches/temples/halls and observe their ceremonies and so on.

One religion (there are others but this one I observed the most) stressed the mentality of 'Us versus Them.' Basically members in that religion are 'good' since they're in the one and only true religion and that the rest of us are destinated for damnation. First thing I noticed when I entered their Hall - there were no windows. None. This reinforces the feeling of 'Us' and that 'Them' is bad and that they would try to corrupt 'Us' and 'Us' have the moral duty to try to save their souls. I could go on but I think my point is clear - the way the Hive is structured as presented by Blade, it's very easy to see how people can be literally brainwashed by their surroundings and environment.

Just like in America, due to strong social messages presented in the media, by the government, and everybody else, I was brainwashed to believe that the communists are evil and so on. Fortunately individual independence is also highly valued so the brainwashing effects weren't that overwhelming. Perhaps fundamentalism/free market/wealth for USA?

Anyway, Blake, thank you for a very entertaining read and I certainly will be looking forward to more of your postings on this topic if you plan to do so.

[gwillybj]

A voice of reason is heard above the wildlings, especially your Fundamentalism paragraph, because "fundamentalism" does not always have to mean "religion".

The American Heritage Dictionary:
fundamentalism
2. A movement or point of view characterized by rigid adherence to fundamental or basic principles.
fundament
4. An underlying theoretical basis or principle.
etymology: Middle English foundement, from Old French fondement, from Latin fundamentum, from fundare, to lay the foundation, from fundus, bottom.

[Blake]

I would suggest that Free Market actually has generally well-off, prosperous workers -- workers that won't stand for martial law, and refuse to be sent off to some warfront when there is so much to live for at home.

Remember, Free Market dosen't produce more drones, it merely keeps you from militarily oppressing the drones you have.

From the penalties involved I would suggest that the Free Market in SMAC is much like capaitlism of early industrialization, when workers were worked to the breaking point and sometimes beyond. After a while capaitlists came to understand that human resources ceased to function well when worked too hard and payed too little, thus wages went up and hours went down, this resulted in more socialist tendancies in many countries (especially europe), acting as a brake on capitlism. Altough currentely a reversal is being seen, especially in USA, where once again hours are increasing and cost of living increasing far faster than wages, causing wide spread poverty.

The point of Free Market in SMAC is to build your economy quickly, disregarding the costs. With that as the goal, the means is unrestrained captitalism.

I must emphasis again that the Free Market in SMAC is capitalism - Freedom to exploit the labor Market. In a way the pysch spending represents the socialism brake on capitalism.

My next post will be on the Data Angels and their Anarchist society.

[Mr. President]

/me dons Level 4 Biohazard suit and waits for the holy wars to begin

[Blake]

Would the holy wars be capitalism vs communism? If so then I find it pointless because capitalism is overly competitive and cruel while communision is overly co-operative and impratical. Human beings are ideally suited to neither system because both are flawed. Both deny a fundamental side of human nature.

[Marid Audran]

Onward sage Blake! You've divined the Hive Utopia, now muse on the Gaian "Paradise on Chiron", if you would.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


It all depends on whether you have a benevolent Free Market arrangement wherein profits are shared via profit sharing and employee stock ownership i.e. how much allocation goes toward psych.

Well, that's exactly it, isn't it? You can't beat down the masses in a Free Market, you have to *gasp!* keep them happy! With rec commons and hospitals and paradise gardens and the like, and energy invested in their mental well-being.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Blake

From the penalties involved I would suggest that the Free Market in SMAC is much like capaitlism of early industrialization, when workers were worked to the breaking point and sometimes beyond. After a while capaitlists came to understand that human resources ceased to function well when worked too hard and payed too little, thus wages went up and hours went down, this resulted in more socialist tendancies in many countries (especially europe), acting as a brake on capitlism. Altough currentely a reversal is being seen, especially in USA, where once again hours are increasing and cost of living increasing far faster than wages, causing wide spread poverty.

The point of Free Market in SMAC is to build your economy quickly, disregarding the costs. With that as the goal, the means is unrestrained captitalism.

I must emphasis again that the Free Market in SMAC is capitalism - Freedom to exploit the labor Market. In a way the pysch spending represents the socialism brake on capitalism.

My next post will be on the Data Angels and their Anarchist society.

Yet this game occurs in the future, where all those lessons have already been learned! You are ignoring the evidence of your eyes, Blake.

Also, as has been pointed out by many practicioners in the past, going to Free Market too early can be crippling, and lead to your downfall -- it is important to have the proper infrastructure in place to keep the people happy when your goons are no longer able to oppress them.

Free Market is not an opening move, it is a finishing move.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk


Well, that's exactly it, isn't it? You can't beat down the masses in a Free Market, you have to *gasp!* keep them happy! With rec commons and hospitals and paradise gardens and the like, and energy invested in their mental well-being.

Yep. Nothing necessarily wrong (in game mechanics terms) with it either. Interesting that minimizing government spending towards psych maximizes societal useful energy.Best trade for overall societal productivity is just enough psych to prevent riots.

But there is also another effect as well. If enough psych is applied to result in a GA another level of econ is gained. Presumably there would be cases where if in trading allainces more useful societal energy would result from increasing psych whilst running Free Market. Is there a real world parrallel anyone could see that would match this case?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk


Yet this game occurs in the future, where all those lessons have already been learned! You are ignoring the evidence of your eyes, Blake.

Also, as has been pointed out by many practicioners in the past, going to Free Market too early can be crippling, and lead to your downfall -- it is important to have the proper infrastructure in place to keep the people happy when your goons are no longer able to oppress them.

Free Market is not an opening move, it is a finishing move.

Monk,

Free Market is definitely an opening move, you simply need to know how to manage it.

Good as a middle game option until war breaks out.

Green is the best in late game for the kick to efficeincy.

[The Mad Monk]

I ususally rely on Cybernetic for the efficiency in the late game.
It's odd, I usually start out in planned until I'm at about the size I want, then "shift into high gear" with Free Market -- unless I'm courting a green AI, or want "to give the AI a chance".

[Blake]

Onward sage Blake! You've divined the Hive Utopia, now muse on the Gaian "Paradise on Chiron", if you would.

Yes, I was thinking of doing the Gaians next, they are a faction I understand somewhat. The Peacekeepers on the other hand... "We've landed on Planet, lets do some paperwork!", great....
University are intersting too, altough I will probably portray the Uni as more immoral than some would like.

Yet this game occurs in the future, where all those lessons have already been learned! You are ignoring the evidence of your eyes, Blake.

They may have been learnt, but have they been taken to heart? I am not much of an optimist when it comes to trusting those with the power & desire to exploit to do the right thing.

SMAC's happiness model (and other models) shouldn't be taken too seriously, it is defunk in many ways and designed far more for gameplay than as a realistic model. My biggest gripe with it is that it makes the population excessively stupid and irrational. When a mindworm wipes out the garrison of a small base leaving the factories and refusing to build more defenses is I'm afraid, not the solution. In reality there is a far stronger "When the going gets tough, the tough get going" reaction.
The second major bung part is when you fly an interceptor out of your territory under FM, it makes the base supporting it unhappy. Self destructing the interceptor killing everyone aboard makes the base happy. In reality the population would go wild.

Anyway, it's still easy to read intentions, clearly FM is meant to be big benefits, shocking costs. A true Free Market needs not have such social&enviromental costs. The FM in SMAC is unrestrained capitalism, and is called that in the "I like planned and your running FM" blurbs.

[Blake]

Data Angels – The Anarchist Society

The Data Angels have the most unique society along with The Hive.

Two kinds of Anarchist
Many have a misconception that Anarchist society wouldn’t work because all Anarchists are rebellious and thus the society would fall apart, if it ever managed to form in the first place. Well, that is due to a popular misconception about Anarchy and Anarchists:
Misconception:
Anarchists = Individualistic Terrorists/Rebels
Truth:
Anarchists = Peaceful freedom lovers

IMO the true anarchist should never resort to violence except in the face of inhuman menace (ie things with no respect for human life), but the result of that in the power hungry world of SMAC would be rapid conquest and loss of the freedom so fleetingly gained. Broadly speaking, the founders of the Data Angels fit into one of two groups:
Those who simply wished to forge a society without authority. (Cooperative, Yin side)
Those with a strong rebellious streak. (Competitive, Yang side)

Without the latter, the Data Angel rebellion would never have happened or would have been rapidly subdued by military force, without the former the society would have fallen apart or been economically conquered. It is worth noting that Roze has a strong rebellious streak, almost certainly one or more of her top advisers were experts in alternate economy & society models. The balance of the two sides proved essential in all aspects of DA society.

The origins of the Data Angel faction:

The Data Angels broke away from the Morganites primarily in a knee-jerk reaction

Oh no! We thought we left this crap [capitalism] behind on Earth!!

The primary revolt was engineered by Roze and her rebellious associates, but the peaceful society builders leapt at the chance to join the splinter group to forge the new society based on freedom rather than power. Many citizens of other factions; recognizing the mistakes of Earth being repeated and all new mistakes being made, fled from their home factions and made their way to the fledging Data Angel faction; which forged by strong minded freedom lovers became a society like no other, at least until the Eudaimonic economies of more enlightened factions.

Anarchist Utopia:
The most striking aspect of DA society is the near complete lack of authority. It is flat-tiered, there is no power structure, all are equal – but not before the law, for it is also a lawless society. Almost as striking is that the faction is incredibly cohesive, linked by a gigantic distributed network which allows complete free flow of information and makes Datajacks THE most connected free citizens on planet, other than the CyC. A number of adaptive programs (originally written by Roze and associates) inhabit the cybernet and help manage the DA market & economy.

Leadership:
The faction is managed by a shadow-council, it is chaired by Roze but otherwise little is known about it, more because it is elusive than secretive. New members join by invite only, and in total it is thought to comprise of 11 members. Decisions are propagated through the all-encompassing DA cybernet to manipulate the actions of the citizens; such manipulation is nearly always for the greater good of the faction, the diverse range of individuals in the council regulate the actions of any one that may have selfish interests.

Market & Economy:
The Data Angel marketplace is the cybernet and it is both simple and astoundingly complex. For a start a wide range of currencies are in use, predominantly a form of time dollars (which existed in prototype form on Earth since the 1990’s) are used for most local transactions, the idea is simple, I do an hour of work for you, I get +10 time dollars, you get -10 time dollars. The “money” is created as work is done and the net amount in the economy is always 0 (thus, no inflation or deflation). Negative balances are not considered a bad thing, rather it is considered normal and good in moderation, much as positive balances are considered normal and good, in moderation. Transactions are logged entirely using software on the cybernet, which also acts as a gigantic bulletin board for buying and selling (generally there are smaller boards for local communities, and the cybernet provides superb supply-demand match-making services). Many other currencies are also in use, including the generic energy-backed energy credits (useful for transactions with those from other factions), a variety of credit-chip type currencies are also in circulation, many of these originated in gambling, as energy credits were too scarce to gamble, and gambling time dollars was found to be undesirable and immoral (when someone gambles their own work-time away, it is in effect slavery). An amusing form of currency is the “troutslap” which emerged from DA cyber culture, the name originating from the IRC networks of Earth; the troutslap is designed “to enact physical punishment for malicious acts committed in cyberspace”. People earn troutslaps in cyberspace by spamming or generally being an ass online. troutslaps are “redeemed” in real-space upon positive identification by a good hard smack to the head (extra points for using a real fish) from any participating member (they can also be un-earned by charitable behavior), it is doubtful that troutslaps actually improved maturity on the cybernet, mostly it is just a fun game of catch-me-if-you-can for youths.
Like in many factions on Chiron private property is forbidden, capital belongs to all dataJacks and dataJills equally, expertise not ownership is recognized (although there are some cooperatives for convenience). The economy is a Free Market, in that it is completely unregulated and everyone sells the product of their labors with complete freedom.
Overall the Data Angel economy is strong and vibrant; although exact measures of GDP fail it is competitive with the capitalistic or state-run economies of other factions.

Lawless, but not immoral:
Generally speaking DA society has no laws, it does however have strong morals, and while privacy is valued, secrecy is not normal and cause for suspicion and investigation. If someone commits a crime and gets caught (likely, with so many snoops) they will experience backlash from the community (usually shunning). Sometimes eye-for-an-eye justice is used; there has been at least one count of an angry crowd lynching a cold-blooded murderer, and vigilante justice, while frowned upon, is not uncommon. On the whole however tensions are low and the community compassionate, the market is forgiving and there is never need for crime for survival. A certain level of mischief is normal and accepted (considered play-fighting), when mischief crosses the line to malice and causes suffering the perpetrator will experience overwhelming backlash and must either repent or be exiled, with the distributed communication network nowhere is safe for one who is exiled from the community, most choose repent over a long hike in the Chiron atmosphere to the next faction. With forgive but don’t forget morals life is difficult for those who don’t play nice.

Diplomacy:
Most of the other faction’s leaders villanized the Data Angels. This was not entirely unjustified for the DA society was a haven for malicious hackers with grievances against other factions, and being lawless it had a thriving “blackmarket” in drugs and other contraband. Although internal use of drugs was effectively regulated by DA society exported drugs did cause problems in other factions. But of course the true reason the other faction leaders hated the DA is because by their very existence they threatened to undermine the credibility of the various authorities in place, which included practically every other factions systems of population control.
On the perfect world the DA society would run itself and everyone would be happy, on Chiron a number of factions would have loved to crush the Data Angels and lock Roze in a punishment sphere for all eternity. The Morganites and The Hive were most ideologically at odds and their leaders almost flat out refused to acknowledge the Data Angels as a real faction, due to the lack of a central government authority.
Only the Gaians had a social structure compatible with the DA’s, and many of the Gaians were technophobes making the two factions citizens somewhat incompatible. The Peacekeepers, Free Drones and Cybernetic Conscious were sympathetic to the DA, but could never entirely trust them.

Social Engineering:
Like in the other factions, social engineering is achieved through manipulations of values. In the Data Angels case the shadow council could manipulate much of the cybernet to achieve their goals and ensure survival of the faction. In some cases Roze made direct appeals to the population for support in various endeavors, like increasing infrastructure (Free Market), Population (Planned) or Environmental awareness (Green). Most of the citizens adored Roze, and recognized that her judgment was good and that sacrifices would have to be made to maintain their freedom. On the whole the Social Engineering methods were both more subtle and more straightforward than those employed by other factions.
It is worth noting that Police State and Power are both fundamentally incompatible with Data Angel society.

Military and Support:
Although opinions on use of force varied greatly among the founders of the DA there clearly was a need for a military to defend against the native life and progenitors, and sometimes strong military responses to repel enemy incursions or even make pre-emptive strikes. There was never a shortage of those prepared to fight for freedom and so military recruitment was on a volunteerism basis. The military is coordinated by strategic planners and units are far more democratic than that of other factions. Everyone in the DA military understands the reasons behind the war and every action; they fight because they want to, not because an officer will shoot them if they don’t. By nearly any standards the DA military is undisciplined, but they are efficient and sometimes even fanatical in their fight for freedom.

Eudaimonic Future Society:
Basically the Eudaimonic Furutre Society is one of sustainable abundance (all needs met, satisfying work for everyone and sustainable), in effect it is the perfectly balanced and most advanced economy, with the ends being happiness rather than economic growth. For the DA, part of switching to Eudaimonic involves grudgingly readmitting some positives sides of capitalism into the DA economy.

[Frankychan]

Blake,

This is probably the most surprising post I have ever seen on Apolyton. Excellent posts, please continue with them!

I especially like the Hive Utopia.

I am really enjoying them.

[Archaic]

One unfortunate problem with these conclusions.

Re: Fundamentalism - The in-game flavour text of any faction set to have Fundamentalism as a preferance, when praising or scorning factions going against it, makes religious references, strongly implying that the choice refers to religious fundamentalism, not just an extreme ideology.


IIRC also, from the canon material in the GURPS SMAC guide, the Data Angels were more concerned with personal liberties than anything else. They were strongly against any sort of government control, and were highly *individualist*. This goes against the idea that their "knee-jerk reaction" would have been against Capitalism (Indeed, if anything, they'd be against any Planned economy, and have a market even more free than Morgan's), and the idea that they would have any sort of communal property of any sort.

[Whoha]

They all believe that their ideology is the best though, so that can't be the ingame fundamentalism can it?

Also I always seem to have more happy people with the free market energy bonus

[Starfarer]

Well as I understand it, netting 1000 energy a turn and allocating 10-20% of that to Psyche will solve a whole lot of your Drone problems...

[Blake]

They all believe that their ideology is the best though, so that can't be the ingame fundamentalism can it?

Not exactly, theres no question the leaders and their cronies believe their ideology is the best, but their citizens didn't nessecarly choose their landing pod. It's also a matter of thinking vs blind faith. Under fundamentalist free flow of information would be massively restricted, everyone hears exactly what the state wants them to.
The primary difference between Police State and Fundamentalism is that under PS the control method is fear, under Fundie the control method is brainwashing (just look at what tech it's available at!). Also under PS it's not particullary important for the population to share the leaderships ideology, under Fundie it is.

Well as I understand it, netting 1000 energy a turn and allocating 10-20% of that to Psyche will solve a whole lot of your Drone problems...

Ever noticed that pysch spending favors the population that is already relatively well off? The drones are left as unhappy as ever until you start getting to 20-40% levels. Sounds like a realll fair method of wealth distribution to me. Pysch spending doesn't go to the root of any problems, it just buries them, creates enough "This is great!" voices to offset the "This sucks!", also fostering the "Rags to riches" dream, Drones see talents and hear stories about drones that ascended to talent-hood, so they continue to slave. (note directely giving them welfare would probably cause them to slack off)
To put it concisely, pysch spending is about solving the problem for the leadership, not for the drones.

IIRC also, from the canon material in the GURPS SMAC guide, the Data Angels were more concerned with personal liberties than anything else. They were strongly against any sort of government control, and were highly *individualist*. This goes against the idea that their "knee-jerk reaction" would have been against Capitalism (Indeed, if anything, they'd be against any Planned economy, and have a market even more free than Morgan's), and the idea that they would have any sort of communal property of any sort.

Every corporation is it's own little police state, where every employee is at the whim of the boss and immediate superiers. The Data Angels would not willingly create a society that fosters such abombinations in an otherwise free nation. Capitalism is all about wage slavery, the poor mans freedom where the worker chooses who he's a slave to. "Ideally" under capitalism the worker gets just enough compensation to stay alive, the capitalist reaps the profits of the rest of the workers labor. Rather than trying to regulate such an unjust system the Data Angels (and some other factions, especially the greenies) replaced it entirely with alternate forms of organisation.

There is little point in talking about society models that wouldn't work, if everyone was highly individualistic and looked out only for themselves the society would degenerate into one where everyone carried a gun and murder was fine. Due to the lack of laws the Data Angels needed even stronger morals, which is not to say an all encompassing code of ethics, rather a very simple rule "Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't cause undue suffering" - some religions use this guiding rule.

Also the Data Angel society involves near perfect free flow of information, it is very important to make the distinction between freedom and lack of accountability, Data Angels are free do anything they want, but must face the consequences of whatever they do, in this sense they are individualist in that they have to think for themselves and not blindly follow a set of laws.

When someones behaivour is immoral they must be punished, which is generally the natural outcome of their behaivour with free flow of information. Lets say someone renges on a deal, takes the cash but doesn't deliver the goods. Word of his bad reputation will rapidly spread and he will find it far harder to make future trades, also anyone reluctant to indentify themselves is viewed with extreme suspicion and must live at the fringes of society.

From a game theory perspective, cheating involves causing suffering (probably for short term gain) and the strategy taken by the population at whole is tit-for-tat. (For those not famialler with game theory, tit-for-tat is an incredibly simple and the most powerful strategy to make cheating unprofitable, it's like eye for an eye, or treat others how you want to be treated)

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Blake
Every corporation is it's own little police state, where every employee is at the whim of the boss and immediate superiers. The Data Angels would not willingly create a society that fosters such abombinations in an otherwise free nation. Capitalism is all about wage slavery, the poor mans freedom where the worker chooses who he's a slave to.

Your lack of understanding of just what Capitalism is is disturbing. I see that you're working your own (throughly distorted) views on capitalism and its morals into your interpretations here. As for them "not willingly" creating a capitalist society, need I remind you that they did exactly that in game canon?

Originally posted by Blake
"Ideally" under capitalism the worker gets just enough compensation to stay alive, the capitalist reaps the profits of the rest of the workers labor. Rather than trying to regulate such an unjust system the Data Angels (and some other factions, especially the greenies) replaced it entirely with alternate forms of organisation.

Strawman of capitalism, and attacks on it made through that strawman, happily ignored. Kindly learn about how economics actually works, before rambling off with something akin to the classic communist strawman of capitalism.

Originally posted by Blake
There is little point in talking about society models that wouldn't work, if everyone was highly individualistic and looked out only for themselves the society would degenerate into one where everyone carried a gun and murder was fine.

Slippery Slope fallacy. Need I remind you that in Western Civilizations, society *is* highly individualistic, and on the whole, everyone looks out pretty much only for themselves. Does this mean that they on the whole have no morals, and don't think of stealing and murder as wrong? Of course not! (N.B. I state "on the whole", simply because there are *always* misfits in every society. A few rotton apples doesn't mean the entire crop is ruined.)

Originally posted by Blake
Due to the lack of laws the Data Angels needed even stronger morals, which is not to say an all encompassing code of ethics, rather a very simple rule "Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't cause undue suffering" - some religions use this guiding rule.

And summarily go on and kill the unbeliever in violation of their own "guiding rule". You're describing a pipe dream. Individualistic doesn't mean no laws. Yes, there are certainly less laws in the Data Angel society, however one could easily argue that this is due to there being less laws against social and economic freedoms, something usually associated with capitalistic economic models.

Originally posted by Blake
Also the Data Angel society involves near perfect free flow of information, it is very important to make the distinction between freedom and lack of accountability, Data Angels are free do anything they want, but must face the consequences of whatever they do, in this sense they are individualist in that they have to think for themselves and not blindly follow a set of laws.

Perfect free flow of info? Well duh. Didn't the name "Data Angels" tip you off to the fact that they originally came from a group of dissatisfied and individualistic hackers? It's the slashdot effect. But what you describe here is, in effect, modern western society. The statements about blindly following a set of laws hardly apply when the laws in that culture wouldn't be limiting civil or economic liberties in the first place. That isn't the kind of culture it is.

Originally posted by Blake
When someones behaivour is immoral they must be punished, which is generally the natural outcome of their behaivour with free flow of information. Lets say someone renges on a deal, takes the cash but doesn't deliver the goods. Word of his bad reputation will rapidly spread and he will find it far harder to make future trades, also anyone reluctant to indentify themselves is viewed with extreme suspicion and must live at the fringes of society.

Yes.....so what? This is a red herring, having nothing to do with the point. Indeed, if anything, it supports my assertion of a capitalistic and individualistic society.

Originally posted by Blake
From a game theory perspective, cheating involves causing suffering (probably for short term gain) and the strategy taken by the population at whole is tit-for-tat. (For those not famialler with game theory, tit-for-tat is an incredibly simple and the most powerful strategy to make cheating unprofitable, it's like eye for an eye, or treat others how you want to be treated)

What are you talking about with "cheating"? Actual cheating, or not going along with a deal you agreed to in Diplo? Regardless of which it is, how does this even support your perspective to begin with?


*Casually notes that you ignored him pointing out that all Fundamentalism flavour text, such as for instance that said by Miriam when you contact her when you do/do not have a Fundamentalist regime, supports the religious fundamentalism position*

[Barinthus]

Originally posted by Blake
There is little point in talking about society models that wouldn't work, if everyone was highly individualistic and looked out only for themselves the society would degenerate into one where everyone carried a gun and murder was fine. Due to the lack of laws the Data Angels needed even stronger morals, which is not to say an all encompassing code of ethics, rather a very simple rule "Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't cause undue suffering" - some religions use this guiding rule.

Also the Data Angel society involves near perfect free flow of information, it is very important to make the distinction between freedom and lack of accountability, Data Angels are free do anything they want, but must face the consequences of whatever they do, in this sense they are individualist in that they have to think for themselves and not blindly follow a set of laws.

When someones behaivour is immoral they must be punished, which is generally the natural outcome of their behaivour with free flow of information. Lets say someone renges on a deal, takes the cash but doesn't deliver the goods. Word of his bad reputation will rapidly spread and he will find it far harder to make future trades, also anyone reluctant to indentify themselves is viewed with extreme suspicion and must live at the fringes of society.

This makes completely sense to me. In Kenya, where the law enforcement is corrupted and ineffective and the society in which tribalism plays an important role in the daily life, people are very polite toward each other. They have a very developed set of unspoken rules on social interaction and conduct. In a society in which thievry is highly despited, this helps to keep people 'controlled' because due to their tribal connections and the size of their own community, should one person gain unsavorius reptuation in a way that's deemed unacceptable by the society at general, that person will be shunned. So there's a great incentive to play by rules in order to be accepted. They also play to that "Golden Rule" in a way - if one tribal member is broke and cannot support himself, his tribe will look after him. One story illustrates this - a man had a brother who was dying. The man tried everything - traditional medicine, prayers, witchcraft, and so on. When suggested that he travel to a missionary church, he said he simply cannot the "white man's medicine." Then the brother died - the man sold everything he had in order to have a funeral with abundance of food and drinks as the customs required. He was also required to feed anybody (including perfect strangers) who showed up. If he did not do this, everybody would consider him with great contempt. He did this, knowing, that his tribe would make sure he has a place to sleep, food to eat and so on. This is why thievry is highly despited because when you steal from one, you steal from everybody else.

Should a thievry occur, the people will take the matters into their hands - they will hunt down the thief and carry out their version of mob justice. I've seen it happen once, not very pleasant.

I'm sure many of you have heard of "there is a code among thieves." I'd imagine it's the same thing with Data Angels. Since there are no laws, a unspoken code would emerge among them governing how they interact with each other and conduct themselves with each other.

In socities in which the individualism is highly prized, individuals tend to give up the burden of enforcing social mores to the Law. They are less likely to get involved and would contact the Law to intervene. However this doesn't mean they would toss out the code of proper social conduct out of the window. Take my skiing weekend for instance - I went to this skiing resort in the mountains in which everybody (mostly) were there for the same purpose - skiing and snowboarding. At the bottom of the skiing area, there's a cluster of shops and cafes. Naturally you cannot walk around with your skiis and boards on so people take them off and you cannot bring those into those shops and cafes. Most people don't want to deal with the hassle of renting locker spaces so we mostly just leave them outside lying against walls. Naturally there is a risk that someone would steal your equipment but most of the time it's not a problem because it seems that everybody knows that if you attempt to steal someone's equipment, it could happen to you later on.

[Mr. President]

I told you the "Capitalism EVIL!!!!11" session wasn't far off.

[Starfarer]

"The only people who think money is evil are those who don't have any."

Paraphrase on a a quote that I cannot recall where from.

People, really. In an idealized version of any society, everybody would be truly happy. Socialism isn't a "devil-spawned evil cult of Satanic commies", no matter how much my teachers tried to tell me so. It's just a system in which everyone gets what they need and gives that they have.

Of course, human nature doesn't let it stay that simple, does it?

Capitalism is, ideally, a system where those who can pull themselves up by the bootstraps do. Where the strongest, smartest, and most charismatic succeed, ultimately in a very Darwinian style, and rise to the top of the pile. In an IDEAL version, the people at the top would do their best to help those at the bottom. But again, human nature doesn't let it be that easy, does it?

In an ideal Anarchic society, everyone can do whatever the hell they want to... as long as they don't hurt the guy next to them. Under such a system, there is no need for police, because the moment someone steps out of line, everyone else tells them so and the offender backs off. Ideally, under such a society, everyone develops, through community and such, a sense of "moral ethics", and sticks to them.

I needn't keep repeating my comment about human nature... do I?

Any of you want to come up with a utopia?

Feel free. go ahead, buy a small island, grab a few thousand people who agree with you, make your society. Make your perfect little world. I guarantee that it'll either fall apart, change, mutate, or corrupt itself within two hundred years.

Oh, I can hear the excuses now. "But my society would work if blah blah blah."

If it were truly perfect, it wouldn't need ifs, people. Get over the fact that perfect doesn't exist.

Every country has a social model they base themselves on, and, as Heinlien once wrote, they persue this model for a single reason and a single reason only.

"Because it works satisfactorily."

Oh, and Blake? I never implied I made the workers happy. *grrin*

I jusrt said I solved the problem. I can't see them and they can't hurt me. Under Free Market, isn't that pretty much the accepted solution?

Ta!

[Frankychan]

Stop ruining the thread! More Yang!