"Heads will roll...just watch me"

[Asher]

http://www.canada.com/national/story...B-A28D78CCC8DF

Heads will roll ... just watch me
Via Rail - Business Development Bank of Canada - Canada Post - RCMP among Crown agencies in Martin's line of fire

Anne Dawson
CanWest News Service

Friday, February 13, 2004

Prime Minister Paul Martin said Thursday he believes "political direction" was given to the small group of rogue civil servants who perpetrated the $250-million Quebec sponsorship scandal and vowed "heads will roll" at the Crown corporations which he said were also "accomplices" in the scam.

"I do know that clearly there . . . had to be political direction," Martin told a news conference. "It's a small group of people and the auditor general talked about the 12 or so people who worked for Public Works, but there certainly has been other people in Crown corporations who were accomplices, and at the same time, it is impossible to believe there was no political direction."

Martin said he will leave it to the public inquiry to find out which Crown corporation officials were complicit in the scam cited in auditor general Sheila Fraser's report, but he left no doubt he intends to make those people pay.

"To quote another prime minister, 'You just watch me,' " he said.

Fraser revealed that five Crown corporations -- Via Rail, the Old Port of Montreal, the Business Development Bank of Canada, Canada Post and even the RCMP -- were involved in funnelling $100 million to Liberal-friendly ad firms in Quebec to pay for work that was incomplete or did not benefit Canadians.

Martin praised his predecessor Jean Chretien as a "man of great integrity" but declined to speculate what he knew about the sponsorship scam, saying that would be up to the inquiry to discover. He said he takes "personal responsibility" for the sponsorship mess and is prepared to testify, but it would be up to Chretien to decide if he would testify if asked.

"I'm not going to speculate. I happen to believe that the former prime minister is a man of character, is a man of integrity and he's made a great contribution to the country," said Martin.

He also said any ministers who knew about the scandal and did not act to stop it should resign, and he demanded anyone with information to come forward. He also suggested a "few" Quebec cabinet ministers may have known more about the real dealings behind the sponsorship scandal than he did.

Martin dismissed a CanWest News story on Thursday that quoted his senior advisers laying the blame for the scandal at Chretien's door.

However, a senior Martin adviser repeated similar allegations to CanWest again Thursday, saying that although they do not believe Chretien knew about the millions of dollars worth of fake invoices and the huge commissions paid out for little or no work, they believe he initiated the "culture" that allowed the culprits to do whatever was necessary to address the Quebec post-referendum crisis.

While Martin was on the defensive, auditor general Sheila Fraser testified before a Commons committee that Parliament was misled and misinformed about what was going on in connection with the government's $250 million sponsorship program.

"The role of Parliament was not respected," Fraser told the public accounts committee. "It was either not informed or misinformed about the management of this program."

Many of the questions Fraser faced were designed to tie political players to the scandal and determine just where the money went.

Fraser also faced questions about her own office and why it hadn't caught the sponsorship scandal earlier.

However, Fraser said her office can only audit a fraction of the government's transactions, chosen on the basis of risk.

As much as I don't like the Liberals, Paul Martin seems like a good guy.

Chretien is still scum, obviously.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

wait wait wait...you guys got a new Prime Minister?

[St Leo]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
wait wait wait...you guys got a new Prime Minister?

He wasn't elected and I'd never vote for him, but yes.

[Sava]

what was bad about Chretien?

what is good/bad about Martin?

[Asher]

Chretien was involved in many scandals, he was generally clueless on the foreign relations angles too.

Paul Martin was his finance minister when they had a respectable budget with surpluses. He's now replaced Chretien as leader for a couple months.

He's more right-wing than Chretien is.

[Wezil]

"Paul Martin seems like a nice guy"


WTF? What have you been smoking?

Political thieves and crooks are NEVER nice guys.

[notyoueither]

Peter Warren just broadcast a joint statement from the Mafia and the Hell's Angels.

The spokesman denied any ties with the Liberal Party of Canada, and insisted that anyone who said otherwise would be 'fixed up'.

[Wezil]

Liberals don't want to be connected to the Liberal Party at the moment. Witness the lying and squirming Martin all week (finally blaming it on the old boss but refusing to say as such..).

Shameful.

[notyoueither]

Yeah, and from the looks of it heads will roll, but some of them may not be the one's Mr. Martin had in mind.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

Scandal drives Liberal popularity down: poll

CTV.ca News Staff

The sponsorship scandal has dealt a punishing blow to the Liberal Party's popularity -- and one casualty could be a spring election, a new poll suggests.

On Jan. 15, the last time Ipsos-Reid conducted a survey for CTV and The Globe and Mail newspaper, the Liberals enjoyed the support of an estimated 48 per cent of Canadians.

In a poll released Friday - three days after Auditor General Sheila Fraser released a damning report on spending abuses in a now-terminated federal sponsorship program in Quebec - the Liberals fell nine percentage points nationally, to 39 per cent.

The Conservative Party rose five percentage points to 24 per cent, while the NDP gained two percentage points, rising to 18 per cent support.

The Bloc Quebecois and the Green Party didn't really change.

It is one of the most sudden plunges ever experienced by a sitting government outside an election.

"This is an issue Canadians are paying attention to. They're making judgments about this government and they're basically finding it wanting in a very short period of time," said Darrell Bricker, president of Ipsos-Reid.

"We've seen polls and polls and scandals and scandals and finally it's taken," said Conservative MP John Reynolds. "People are seeing here this is not just Jean Chretien, this is the Liberal Party."

Prime Minister Paul Martin knows the scandal, which had its origins when Chretien was in charge, is hurting his government.

In an interview with CTV's Question Period, to be aired Sunday, Martin said, "I am mad as hell that some people did this," adding, "What I think is really important here is to get to the bottom of the matter."

An election had been expected for this spring. But when asked Friday whether that was still the plan, Martin would only say an election would be called "when it is appropriate to do so."

To form a majority government, a federal party needs about a 40 per cent share of the popular vote.

The polling was conducted between Feb. 10 and 12. It sampled 1,055 Canadians and is considered accurate within plus or minus 3.9 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

The regional and other sub-groupings tell an interesting story, but the because the sample sizes are smaller, the potential for error increases.

Prime Minister Paul Martin was hoping to end Western alienation, but Westerners seem to have taken the news about the scandal particularly badly.

Here is a breakdown:


B.C. - 27 per cent, down 15 points from 42 per cent
Alberta - 28 per cent, down seven points from 35 per cent
Saskatchewan/Manitoba - 33 per cent, down 13 points from 46 per cent

Ontario dropped 10 points, down to 47 per cent from 57 per cent.
In Quebec, support for the Liberals went from 45 per cent to 40 per cent, a drop of five points.
Atlantic Canada barely blinked. Liberal support fell from one point, from 43 to 42 per cent.

Rural support for the Liberals plunged by 17 points, falling from 45 to 28 per cent. Conversely, it went up by 11 points for the Conservatives, rising from 25 per cent to 36 per cent.

B.C.'s support for the Conservatives shot up by 15 points, going from 20 to 35 per cent.

Alberta, already a Conservative bastion, only saw Conservative support rise three points, going from 47 to 50 per cent.

Conservative support only rose three points in Saskatchewan/Manitoba, going from 20 to 23 per cent.

Ontario will be a key battleground in the next federal election. If the Conservatives want to form the government, they will have to break through there.

However, while the Conservatives went up seven points in Canada's most populous province, they only went from 18 to 25 per cent.

Quebec is the second-most populous province, and the Conservatives are barely on the radar there. The party did rise three points, going from two to five per cent.

In Atlantic Canada, Conservative support actually fell four points, dropping from 37 to 33 per cent.

Saskatchewan is the birthplace of the NDP, and the party gained nine points there, going from 24 to 33 per cent. In Ontario, the NDP went up five points, going from 17 to 22 per cent. It gained three points in Alberta, moving up to 16 from 13 per cent.

The party also experienced slight rises in Quebec and Atlantic Canada. However, it fell by five points in B.C., going from 27 to 22 per cent.

[Wezil]

I heard those numbers last night.

Sadly, most Canadians don't really give a damn when it comes time to vote. Martin will be reelected despite his sleaze.

Surely we have some Liberal voters here at ACS. Come on guys, let's hear the defense of this crook.

[FS*]

I don't think it's as much that Canadians don't care as it is a lack of any reasonable/credible alternative.

Being so close to this, could Martin have been completely ignorant? Enquiring minds wish to know.

[notyoueither]

I'm sure a lot of people in Cabinet at the time who were in a position where they could have known did in fact not know exactly what was going on. I find it difficult to believe that you would find many people willing to participate in a conspiracy to commit criminal acts.

Until I hear facts to the contrary, I am prepared to accept that Martin and others may have been aware that some good old-fashioned pork barreling was going on, but they did not know how outrageous the rip offs were.

However, that does not mean that I think we should keep the same party in power for consecutive majorities running into decades of time in power. That is simply begging for this sort of thing to happen, frequently.

What is really interesting... if this hurts the Liberals sufficiently to prevent a majority in the next election, which party in their right minds would prop them up in a minority? How do you think a Bloc-Tory-NDP minority government would hold up.

We may be entering interesting times.

[Oncle Boris]

Originally posted by Sava
what was bad about Chretien?

what is good/bad about Martin?

First, I hate the liberals.

Still, I think Chretien was underestimated. Chretien is a 'streetfighter' kind of politician, cynical and corrupt. Contrary to popular belief, he's a very astute man. His social policy was center by Canadian standards, and definitely left by American standards.

Martin is the typical corporate scum, lowering the rich's taxes, and interfering against fiscal laws that would make tax evasion harder. Plus, he won't ever answer a single question. He's way too hypocrit to state his opinion on anything other than obvious, widely-accepted facts.

[Oncle Boris]

Originally posted by notyoueither

What is really interesting... if this hurts the Liberals sufficiently to prevent a majority in the next election, which party in their right minds would prop them up in a minority? How do you think a Bloc-Tory-NDP minority government would hold up.

We may be entering interesting times.

We shouldn't count on it. At best, the Bloc will damage the Liberals enough to let a Tory victory slip in.

[FS*]

Originally posted by notyoueither What is really interesting... if this hurts the Liberals sufficiently to prevent a majority in the next election, which party in their right minds would prop them up in a minority? How do you think a Bloc-Tory-NDP minority government would hold up.

We may be entering interesting times.

If only the Conservative/exAlliance/Whatever could get it together, there might be some chance of opposition. Certainly hasn't been much happening with the NDP...

But if Martin can't turn this around- assuming he isn't implicated- it could get very interesting, indeed.

Rhinos, anyone?

[joncha]

Ah... but a big part of the Liberal vote came from small-l liberals and social-democrats afraid of the Reform/Alliance. Now that the new Conservative party is more "respectable" and the Liberals are more openly big-business sleaze... well, let's just say the NDPs chances are looking better ever day.

jon.

[mrmitchell]

Would any of you Canadians explain to an ignorant from down here the major political parties and issues that Canada has, eh?

[cinch]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
Would any of you Canadians explain to an ignorant from down here the major political parties and issues that Canada has, eh?

(Assuming you is serious...)

Well, this is my half-assed version (NYE or Ben could probably do it much better than I, but I'll try):

There are 4 Main Political Parties in Canada as of the moment:

1. The Liberals. They are in power, and have been throughout most of our nation's history. They define "brokerage party". They basically try and take whatever's popular and make it their platform. It's not particularly heartwarming, but it can get the job done most of the time. However, since they're in power so much, they've become corrupt and bloated.
POLICY SAMPLE: Pro-gay marriage; pro-Kyoto; pro-fiscal responsibility; pro-social-programs; that's right... PRO-EVERYTHING. They promise the world.

2. The Conservatives. This party was created last year due to the amalgamation of the Progressive Conservative Party (soft right; itself an amalgamation) and the Canadian Alliance Party ('hard' right in Canada, regular right in USA). This party is still being formed, in a way, so it's hard to say exactly HOW right-wing it will be. It could either wind up as a fiscally conservative / socially progessive party, or it could go all-conservative... Perhaps depending on who wins the leadership race, which has yet to be conducted.
POLICY SAMPLE: Unsure. Definitely looking towards stuff like tax cuts, reduction in social programs, possible 'tiering' of health-care system.


3. The New Democrats. This is the hard left party. Hard left to most Canadians, so these guys are like FARC to most Americans, I'd say. They have little chance of ever winning the election, but they do look to possibly gain some seats (in the house of parliament) in the upcoming election, as hard-left liberals defect from the "corporatist" Paul Martin regime Liberal party.
POLICY SAMPLE: Increased social spending; pro-gay marriage; pro-corporate-taxing; pro-Svend Robinson being a character


4. Le Bloc Quebecois. This party only runs candidates in Quebec, yet it has still garnered enough seats to be Official Opposition once in the past. It has proven extremely popular in Quebec, though they don't look to be going up anytime soon.
POLICY SAMPLE: Pro-separation; pro-making every policy benefit Quebec first and foremost.


**************************

Now, the Liberals have just elected a new leader: Paul Martin. This makes him our unelected Prime Minister. As is customary, he will likely call an election this spring. Since the Conservatives are in such disarray (and since many Easterners still see them as dominated by redneck Westerners), the Libs look to be headed towards another huge majority government. The NDs may gain some ground, and the Cons may stay strong, but I expect the Libs to gain ground in Quebec and possibly even in the West. Ontario will stay red (the colour of the Liberal Party), I'd wager.

[joncha]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
Would any of you Canadians explain to an ignorant from down here the major political parties and issues that Canada has, eh?

I'll give it a shot. It's from my own "fair and balanced" leftest perspective, so any of the Canadian righties (and centerists for that matter) should feel free to "correct" me:

The ruling party in Canada now (and for the past 10 years or so) is the Liberals. They have about 2/3 of the 301 seats in parliament. They're a centre-right party roughly equivalent to the Democrats in the States (so by American standards, they're basically communists). Their leader (and thus Prime Minister) is Paul Martin. Martin recently succeeded in pushing out the former Liberal leader (and PM) Jean Chretien. He is widely seen as taking the socially-liberal, fiscally conservative party further to the right, by hardening the fiscal aspect and waffling on, or dumping outright, many of the social aspects of the Liberal platform.

The next largest party is the Conservatives. They're in the midst of a leadership race, as they only recently formed out of a merger of the Alliance (formerly Reform) party and the rump of the old Progressive Conservative party. The Alliance was a mix of hard-right, Pat Buchanan-style politics and grassroots populism, although they have spend most of their 10 year existance toning down both. The PCs were an old-style Tory party with a significant social-liberal wing. Together, the new party has about 50 or so seats.

The third party is the Bloc Quebecois. Their main platform is Quebec independence. As such, their an odd mix of social democrats and business leaders (mostly former Tories) who have put aside their other political differences in order to promote Quebec nationalism.

Finally, there's the New Democratic Party, a social-democratic party like the Labour Party in Britain. The NDP have about 15 seats, but are expected to increase that total in the next election.

There are some big social issues (Gay Marriage tops among them), but right now the corruption issue that Martin inhereted from Chretien seems to be dominating the agenda. The Liberals were expected to hold an election early this spring or summer, but they may well hold off in the hopes that the scandal will blow over.

jon.

[Ben Kenobi]

Mr. Mitchell:

I'll just tinker a bit with cinch's post.


1. The Liberals. They are in power, and have been throughout most of our nation's history.

(ie, the Natural Governing Party.)

PRO-EVERYTHING. They promise the world.


2. The Conservatives.

Policy depends on who wins the leadership race, which has yet to be conducted.

Three options we are looking at. Barbara Stronach would cater to the soft right Progressive faction, who is basically pro-gay marraige, pro everything the liberals are for. She has yet to really flesh out her policy ideas.

The other two candidates, one is Tony Clement, who has picked up on a clever idea for students, offering your first quarter million in lifetime earnings will be tax free, and the other is Stephen Harper, the former leader of the Alliance


3. The New Democrats.

pro-Svend Robinson being a character pretty much sums up the party.

4. Le Bloc Quebecois.
POLICY SAMPLE: Pro-separation;

[Ben Kenobi]

lack of any reasonable/credible alternative.

Hello settler.

[Ben Kenobi]

B.C. - 27 per cent, down 15 points from 42 per cent

BC cannot stomach porkbarrelling, because they know all the pork benefits Quebec.

[mrmitchell]

Thanks guys

Now in return I'll give you some Murrican parties

-Democrat Party: Large party that has American left/world center policies. But it has been in control for most of modern times so it is bloated and corrupt.

-Republican Party: Large party that has American right/world ultranazifascist policies. But it has been in control for most of modern times so it is bloated and corrupt.

[notyoueither]

cinch and the others have some good points. This is my take. I spent too long typing to junk it, dammit!

Liberals: The Natural Governing Party of Canada. The Liberals maintain power by adapting the best ideas from all sides and taking them down the middle of the road. Canadian chickens do not cross the road, they stop when they reach the centre. Strongest in Central Canada and the Atlantic Provinces.

Conservatives: Recently patched up party of the right. All they agree on is fiscal Conservatism (and some things that go with that, like small government). Some supporters are quite socially conservative, while others who would naturally support them are socially liberal. The question is if enough of the social liberals-fiscal conservatives will be able to see their way to supporting the new Conservatives. That will depend on the platform the party adopts. Base of support is in Western Canada, but has prospects in parts of Ontario, Quebec, and the Atlantic Provinces (if they can keep the social liberals).

NDP: New Democratic Party... the Left. Every 'good' idea they have ever had that had mass appeal got ripped off by the Liberals. They have been in government federally only once, as a partner to a Liberal minority government. They have governed several provinces, with mixed results. They are the establishment in Saskatchewan and have governed well there for a long time. They have had recent disasters in larger provinces (BC and Ontario) and have been driven from power after governing with majorities. The NDP stand to be large winners if this corruption scandal sticks to Martin's new Cabinet. However they will have a very hard time gaining the support of the vast flocks that inhabit the middle of the road without toning down the extrme left rhetoric, a lot. They will gain support from leftists who have supported the Liberals for strategic reasons, but who cannot stand the stink any longer (not sure how many of those there are though). Base of support is also Western Canada (ironic considering the Conservatives) and industrial areas of Ontario and a bit elsewhere.

The Bloc Quebecois: Leftist(?) seperatists from Quebec who sit as Members of Parliament to further the goal of sovereignty for Quebec It might not be too strange though, because any lessoning of Federal power and increase for the provinces makes them happy as well. For many people from Quebec, independence might not be the best thing, but being their own masters in as many areas as possible and feasible is a damn good idea. Ironically, this goal is shared by many right leaning (and perhaps otherwise) inhabitants of Western Canada.

The Old Conservatives (Tories): the historic alternative to the Liberals for forming governments to keep the Liberals at least a tad honest. Also the check on the Liberals going too far left. They formed a government after a lengthy period of Liberal governments in the 60's and 70's, then won another election fought on Free Trade. The bitterness of the issue of Free Trade and a couple of other issues (Constitution and taxation), instances of corruption and allegations of further corruption, together with an undermining of their traditional support led to their devastation in the late 80's. The party never recovered, and has recently merged with Reform/CA to 'Unite the Right'.

Reform/Conservative Alliance (CA): Originally a Western protest party (snit fits that crop up every 20 or 40 years). Their appearance coincided with the bitter issues of the last 5 or 6 years of the last Tory government. They capitalised on every issue the Tory PM (Mulroney) and his government handed to them (corruption, taxation, the Constitution, regional issues) where Tory support was based and ate the Tories' Western seats for breakfast. However, they never broke through in Central or Atlantic Canada, probably because they were viewed as too right wing. Vote splitting between them and the Tories in Ontario certainly didn't hurt the Liberals in winning successive majorities since the late 80's.

Those are/were the major actors of Canadian politics. The major issues would be:

1. Being neighbours of the United States.
2. Healthcare and how to fund it and improve it.
3. Trade, especially with the United States whose administrations do not seem to realise that there is a treaty in effect.
4. Corruption
5. Foreign Policy and how to repair the damage done to relations with the US done by the recently departed moron and his cronies. Chretien's one real weak spot (aside from blatant theft from the Canadian taxpayer) was thinking that Canada could act like some French and Germans and insult the American administration with impunity, but things would all be good, eh.
6. Can the Leafs really win it? What happened to the Oilers and the Habs?
7. Security and the War on Terror, seeing as we share the largest undefended (used to be and we'd like to keep it that way) border in the world with the United States.
8. Federal-Provincial relations: funding for social programs and the Constitution (the big C word is on the back burner, but social program funding is always a hot topic). You could say that this is the same as healthcare, but healthcare is a whole issue of its own in Canadian politics.
9. Human Rights and the role of our courts and Parliament in legislation.
10. Having the United States as neighbours.

Those would be the top ten. Repeated references to the US is only partially exaggerated. Seperatism, taxation and balanced budgets, Parliamentary reform, education, economic development, language laws... and assorted other 'minor' issues jump up to number 10 from time to time for a short while.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by FS*
Certainly hasn't been much happening with the NDP...

NDP has gotten several new high-profile candidates and Jack Layton is doing a fine job as leader. Certainly, had Copps defected and not just talked about it, the NDP would be in a better position, but it's doing well.

[mrmitchell]

Thanks NYE. Although I'm surprised you would care so much about US. Was thinking you'd have more issues of your own...want to have some of ours? We've got too many issues and not enough viewpoints on them, maybe we could make a trade, eh?

[Ben Kenobi]

The NDP stand to be large winners if this corruption scandal sticks to Martin's new Cabinet.

Why? The Tories do much better, while the NDP has always been seen as the fringe, despite the media coverage.

I don't see NDP support fluctuating, compared to the Conservative party which is currently going through some big changes.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
Thanks NYE. Although I'm surprised you would care so much about US. Was thinking you'd have more issues of your own...want to have some of ours? We've got too many issues and not enough viewpoints on them, maybe we could make a trade, eh?

There's a Canadian proverb about an elephant and a mouse. The elephant hardly notices the mouse, the mouse pays attention.

[Ben Kenobi]

NYE!



Beat me to the punch.

[St Leo]

What Canada needs is for the Liberals to split into two parties.