HOTW4.0 Out of Charcter Thread part III

Rasputin · February 16, 2004, 20:01

Ok last one hit >500

Please continue discussion here...

past thread for info

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...98#post2729698

Frank Johnson · February 16, 2004, 21:20

I don't care for your tone Ras. You seem like you don't want this game to go on? If I suggested a ban on diplos/caras, what really makes you think an ancient unit is going to pass that same test when we're talking about paratroopers?

Just remember, I don't HAVE to do anything. You act like you can prove one thing or another.

This is just becoming another case of a diplo game where the fun has left it. The argument itself is reason enough to quit, much less having to listen to your pathetic ranting of how you extract joy from serving deity.

I find it very unlikely that there is any intregrity remaining in this game. While diplomaticly I flashed signs of war, it was a limited and defensive one, with no time table. In return, total dimanteling of my military or my whole land burns? I will just start making new accusionations I can't prove, but I don't believe this game has any integrity anymore. I don't believe the events before were merely luck.

deity · February 16, 2004, 21:33

If you want to talk about 'tone' Frank I think I've been incredibly restrained with you unfair allegations against me and the 'tone' you have used. I've tried to respond in a measured way.

Frank Johnson · February 16, 2004, 21:46

All the tone is for you is, cheating is ok, and do whatever you have to to win. IF you can mislead people about the rules, and the nature of the game, thats all the better.

Ill be leaving now. This is sad, to see the majority of players misled the entire game, only to have the game end up like tihs. I've talked to everyone about it. And given their responces, none of them wanted a game like this, except for Deity and Raz who are locked into positions defending themselves.

We are playing a 8 year old game with many bugs and flaws. That is why I believed that the burden was on us, as players, to regulate ourselves and our actions, to maintain a fair gaming environment, since we can't expect the game to do it for us.

deity · February 16, 2004, 22:11

I posted lots of warnings in this thread about the end game and people not getting upset. Everyone acknowledged how the end game operates. It's the civ we love. It's great to win. Tough to lose, but it's just a game. I'm trying real hard to accomodate the situation regardless of the fact that I know I have done nothing wrong. I want to maintain friendship with all you guys and particularly Frank. So, I'll go back to the beginning of my turn.

As far as exploiting game mechanics goes:
* I used limted guiding. I did not need to but it save time. Guiding was not banned at game start. Most I've played use diplo guiding.
* I rush built a lot on the last turn. Everyone rush builds.
* I used a lot of Engineers to rush a railroad extension. Everyone does this and it is an investment that many players make in having lots of Engineers.
* Unit bribe and Unit & City ceding were specifically allowed in this game.

So, how is this exploiting game mechanics?

This is what Civ is!

If I used it effectively why I am being treated like this?

I've praised many players for effective strategies they've developed (Makeo, atawa, Markus, Nappy, MarkE, etc) and learnt from them.

If there is no city limit you have a huge grey area about what consitutes a reasonable attack and sorry, I can't see what that reason is. I play Civ to win. I prefer SS victories but because of who I am or something I get drawn into wars. If I go to war I leave no doubt about it. I'm not a galah! If I just took one Chinese city what would Frank do next? Now, think about that.

Zylka · February 16, 2004, 22:34

Quote:

regardless of the fact that I know I have done nothing wrong.

keep the act up

oh btw guys - I also used wait command on tiremes which wasn't techincally banned to colonize half the world on early resource. I truly know I did nothing wrong

Zylka · February 16, 2004, 22:44

PS - "This is the civ we love". Now doesn't that make everything better??

deity · February 16, 2004, 22:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Zylka
keep the act up

oh btw guys - I also used wait command on tiremes which wasn't techincally banned to colonize half the world on early resource. I truly know I did nothing wrong

We agreed on Rah Rules as our backstop Zylka. I obeyed Rah Rules:
Wait command on triremes is banned. Diplo guiding is not....

There is no act to keep up. I'm not sure what else I can say.

Zylka · February 16, 2004, 22:59

Well I didn't know RR was agreed upon
Messt planning, boys

Zylka · February 16, 2004, 23:02

I will unfortunately have to support continuation of this save and D's actions on the technicality of RR dipguide conclusion. Even I'm surprised to now see it listed as legitimate; and since you agreed on those rules as backup - that's what sticks.

Still lingers as a stain of character for you D - especially when "Mr. World Diplomacy" has been so convincingly feigned in past games and instances. What a shame this action lay contrary to all dipomacy fantasies you so openly stood for.

Berzerker · February 17, 2004, 02:07

I just read the quotes from the last thread wrt our discussion about guiding and I see that I requested all guiding be banned. But then I withdrew that request so I can't hold Deity guilty of any rules violation.

Did we discuss guiding after my last quote? If not, and I can't remember one way or the other, then Deity played within the rules as far as I'm concerned. Hell, did Deity even take part in that discussion? I don't see anything from him even acknowledging a discussion of a ban much less agreeing to it...

*sigh* I better go back and read the threads...more work...

Berzerker · February 17, 2004, 02:38

Damn, can someone link the rules thread?

deity · February 17, 2004, 08:10

Ok, I like Raz idea to replay my turn with just him me and Ljube plus Frank before the next session.

I'll repost Azande demands and we'll take it from there. It is entirely possible that the current situation will be repeated.

Ljube · February 17, 2004, 08:33

It is also possible that your demands will be accepted this time.

OzzyKP · February 17, 2004, 11:29

With all the bad feelings now, I doubt Frank would be any more likely to accept the peace deal.

Frank Johnson · February 17, 2004, 13:01

I'll do the following. Start with the same save as last session. Deity can do the same thing over, perhaps short a city or two. If he wants.

I will disband my howies and armor and we set up the scenario for the alien invasion.

Ljube · February 17, 2004, 13:10

Once again you have proved to be above petty quarrel Frank. I salute you!

OzzyKP · February 17, 2004, 14:06

Well whatever y'all decide to do, please, for the love of God, don't make me sit through another 4 hour Deity turn.

Rasputin · February 17, 2004, 21:07

and once again i get the blame LOL

why is it that a nation tha t plays it diplomaticaly and schemese behind the scenes and does deals and backstabs and does mroe dealing , basically a nation that palys diplo to the max, get blamed whenever these games get to this stage.

i did what i felt was best for my nation in the game, not necessairlu what would make my nationswin, never a chance of that. but the best to make sure those that hav enot helped my nation do not win.

i palyed this game out based on the fact that china would not and still has not given a single thing to egyppt. i always paly my games to make sure those nations that do not help my nation are my enemies. so china has been my number one enemy since very early in game,

india, azande, england and serbia, have all given either techs or citys or money to me during game, china and tartar did notihng. so after tartar left game i onyl had one enemy left, china, once that was establsihed and china offered no help during my "fake" war with india , it was decided to allow any and all cross nation attacks on china..

my whole game plan was to get "highways" across asia to link africa and asia with all so any one could cross the continents.

whilst i fully hate the idea of railroads being unlimited movements, i unfortunaly use them as well.

so in relaity the turns are over ten years each at present and so ten years is not too long to move units via rail from africa to china

Rasputin · February 17, 2004, 21:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
I don't care for your tone Ras.

dont read into a text chat a tone it uis assumptions

Quote:

You seem like you don't want this game to go on?

not once hav ei suggested ending the game, i have in fact fofered 3 suggestions for conti9nuing, if you mean ending the game if you not here, no it wont end. we wil continue.

Quote:

If I suggested a ban on diplos/caras, what really makes you think an ancient unit is going to pass that same test when we're talking about paratroopers?

i think nothing of the sort, i beleive all guiding is wrong !!! but it wasnt banned i asked for it and you said no, lets use common sense, well common sense doesnt exist.

Quote:

Just remember, I don't HAVE to do anything. You act like you can prove one thing or another.

personaly i dont care, it only a game to me not a value indication of my life, so i dont need to prove or disprove anything, all i want is oppurtunity for more fun .

Quote:

This is just becoming another case of a diplo game where the fun has left it. The argument itself is reason enough to quit, much less having to listen to your pathetic ranting of how you extract joy from serving deity.

fun only leaving cause you play to win and when you losing yuo dont like it, still fun for me, was stil lfun when i was threateend with total anihalation by india, and he could hav edone it, i lost over 30% of my military and many of my main town in mideast. but istill palyed on .

Quote:

I find it very unlikely that there is any intregrity remaining in this game. While diplomaticly I flashed signs of war, it was a limited and defensive one, with no time table. In return, total dimanteling of my military or my whole land burns? I will just start making new accusionations I can't prove, but I don't believe this game has any integrity anymore. I don't believe the events before were merely luck.

again i did same to india, took two towns and faced total anihlation by them, not once did you junmp up and down about their actions against me, this is not about game stuff this about you losing your citys.

Rasputin · February 17, 2004, 21:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
All the tone is for you is, cheating is ok, and do whatever you have to to win. IF you can mislead people about the rules, and the nature of the game, thats all the better.

tactics used througouht this game and posted about many times , hardly new tactics to suddenly call cheating now.
[quote]
Ill be leaving now. This is sad, to see the majority of players misled the entire game, only to have the game end up like tihs. I've talked to everyone about it. And given their responces, none of them wanted a game like this, except for Deity and Raz who are locked into positions defending themselves. [/deity] i not locked into anything except revealing that you are only upset because the taqctics used on you, notihng said when they usedon serbia or egypt...

Quote:

We are playing a 8 year old game with many bugs and flaws. That is why I believed that the burden was on us, as players, to regulate ourselves and our actions, to maintain a fair gaming environment, since we can't expect the game to do it for us.

which is why we neede dto agree on rules at begiing of game so we all know what is right or worng.... no decision made meant it was ok....

Rasputin · February 17, 2004, 21:21

Quote:

Originally posted by deity
Ok, I like Raz idea to replay my turn with just him me and Ljube plus Frank before the next session.

I'll repost Azande demands and we'll take it from there. It is entirely possible that the current situation will be repeated.

not sure it practical to repeat the whole thing, but wo9rth aqn effort ...

Berzerker · February 18, 2004, 12:48

Do y'all have a save from the beginning of Deity's turn? If we have to start over from that session how do we deal with the problem of replaying the turn the same way we played it except for Deity's diploguiding? Or are we all free to change what we did even if that alters, delays, obstucts, or prevents Deity's attack?

Frank Johnson · February 18, 2004, 15:27

Im going to assume they are going to make you give back the cities. Whatever your responce is to my opression is up to you.

deity · February 18, 2004, 19:24

Quote:

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Well whatever y'all decide to do, please, for the love of God, don't make me sit through another 4 hour Deity turn.

That would be for the love of GOD

deity · February 18, 2004, 19:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Zylka
I will unfortunately have to support continuation of this save and D's actions on the technicality of RR dipguide conclusion. Even I'm surprised to now see it listed as legitimate; and since you agreed on those rules as backup - that's what sticks.

Still lingers as a stain of character for you D - especially when "Mr. World Diplomacy" has been so convincingly feigned in past games and instances. What a shame this action lay contrary to all dipomacy fantasies you so openly stood for.

My reputation isn't worth the paper it's printed on

deity · February 18, 2004, 19:58

I appreciate the result we are now getting in the dialog and great that Frank is still in the game. The most important thing is enjoyment and friendship

BTW, I have my auto save from the start of my turn.

I want to keep everything on an even keel now but because of the things that have been said in the threads I believe I have a right to sum up the position from my perspective:

Firstly, I used a limited amount of diplo-guiding without giving it a second thought. The preceeding posts show that it was NOT banned and we all agreed on Rah Rules as a backstop to resolving issues. RR allows diplo-guiding. I used no exploits at all. End of story.

Thus my turn is entirely legitimate and I need that to be recognised.

However, I offerred to go back to the beginning of my turn to settle things down and because Frank thought that diplo-guiding was banned; and also to keep this EXCELLENT group going. Our numbers at Poly are a bit thin on the ground and we can't afford to keep losing great players.

Disputes MUST be resolved. Do you realise we have played 16 WEEKS of 4-6 hour sessions!! This is a sign of fantastic commitment and a great game. Long live DIPLO and1x1x!

I'll post my save shortly but I need some advice.

Even though diplo-guiding was not banned are we now agreeing to ban it from here on?

I don't want people thinking we are re-playing my turn because a rule was broken. It was not. What I want understood is that I'm more than happy to replay because of the SPIRIT of the game.

---

Now, if we replay what am I allowed to do?

Since it is the end-game I was under the impression that military conquest was legitimate? I had posted warnings about this earlier on.

Are we allowed to conquer a civ?

Is there a city limit? I was told no.

What am I allowed to do that doesn't cause a problem?

---

I'm dedicated to diplo games but need guidance here.

The very early diplo games were SS race. Then Capo re-defined diplo games after drake wiped out Epik and suas who wre about to land SS's.

Capo's HOTW2 ended in World War but players quit and there was a nasty taste in the mouth.

Civ was designed to be won, in one of three ways, when it comes to the end game.

So, with diplo games how do we draw a line and minimise upset?

Incidentally, players get upset in ALL civ games when your civ is wiped out. There is something insidiously invasive about it that pervades the inner psyche. You feel like all power is drained from you and is analagous to rape I guess. I think we need to develop a cultural way of thinking that deals with this so that the military conquest end game is OK and we are still friends.

In the end we have to keep telling ourselves... It's only a game - a brilliant game.

Rasputin · February 18, 2004, 21:06

great time to continue the game....

if we start from deitys saved game, then it doesnt matter what we do, diety will still attack and nothing ccan be donw to prevent it, so no need to worry bout anything else..

i think it was decided much earlier that conquest is an option and alway shas been, it is up to world diplomacy t ostop the conquest if they bleeive it is bad.

any future games i want either howies weakened or a stronger defender made earlier. howies shouldnt dominat egame like they do.

Ljube · February 18, 2004, 22:53

Quote:

Originally posted by deity

Incidentally, players get upset in ALL civ games when your civ is wiped out.

Not me deity. I invite you to wipe me out to satisfy your primal urge to kill.

Why have you suddenly decided to kill everybody? I thought you wanted to build a spaceship.

Whether you are going to wipe somebody out or not depends solely on your character. Personally I think that it's unfair to wipe anybody out. Before I even think about it, I consider that they have invested much in this game and that they would feel empty after I eliminate them, so I decide not to do it. Just like you said, the most important thing is enjoyment and friendship.

As far as what you are allowed to do, well, consider that your actions will cause reactions, so better not try anything exaggerated.

Ljube · February 18, 2004, 22:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasputin
any future games i want either howies weakened or a stronger defender made earlier. howies shouldnt dominat egame like they do.

I fully agree. The way it is now, the civ that attacks firts with howitzers is going to win.