I don't get the whole heaven thing

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by paiktis22
As the scriptures says you have to actually believe with all your heart the way you contact yourself. So heaven is not a prize if you do. More like what's coming to you if you think feel act a certain way. If one behaves a certain way only in order to go to heaven he's not doing what god allegendly wants so he won't go.

But salvation is a gift, given freely to us by God. It is not a reward nor wages nor a prize nor anything else related to our work.

A gift, free. Our inability to accept that is one of the primary impediments to our salvation. Too good to be true in human reasoning, but that is why it has been referred to as the "Good News". Look what God has done and rejoice!

[Elok]

Heaven is selective for the same reason that the Prodigal Son had to give up hanging around with whores before returning home, rather than hanging around his dad's place and inviting the hookers in for a drink every once in a while. We're always welcome, but our obnoxious habits aren't. That's all.

[Robert Plomp]

I am not comfortable with the word servant. The relationship God desires for us is much fuller than that.

Servant is just a part of the relationship we have with God. And not in the traditional sence of the word, the negative sence of the word.
I do want to serve a good 'boss', if he respects me and loves me, and gives me all I need.

But I agree with the rest of your post, it's more than that. Father/son is a very good example as well, but in the end our examples fall short of the real meaning.

if he want fellowship then why idea that some will go the heaven to be with god...and some will not...this creates a breach between humans...so that fellowship with each other isnt a possiblity.

Be with God is a choise everyone can make for himself. Why force anyone to be with God forever?
And why can't we have a fellowship with unbelievers? I can.

why is absence of god a punishment? what does god do? i am not trying to get people mad...but well what does god do?

I'm not sure if it's meant as a punishment. Remember that to start with, it wasn't God who chose to leave us. It was us who decided to leave God.

But why it's not good?
Because we are designed / created by God. He knows what is good for us, and bad. He knows in what way we will be most happy. He knows how we can fullfill the goal we are made for.

If we are not with our creator, our possibilities cannot completely be used. Not to mention that God is good. Not as in "the car is red", since 'red' is just a property of the car. God = good. He IS good itself. He's the origin of good. No God = no good.

And that's not very good.

Well if all Hell is is the absence of God, then I certainly wouldn't mind going there.

And God will let you go there. Though I'm afraid you have no idea what you're talking about

but if god is onmipresent...why did he create such f*ckups like us then?

Good question. Sometimes I wish I knew the answer.
But I know that I'm happy that he made me as an individual, able to make my own choises, rather than an animal.

A better question is: if God is omnipresent / omnipotent... why did he not abandon f*ckups like us then.........?
That's because he loves us.
Like a father always loves his son, either if the son deserves it or not.

and which of the 2 is it...do we have free will or are we controlled by fate?

Difficult question.
The problem with us, humans, is that we cannot imagine the concept of having free will while God controls it.

We have free will. The bible calls us to repent. God calls us to chose. Why would God do that if we can't chose?

The problem is that God is omniscient. He nows all our choises. Our current choises and our future choises as well. At the beginning of everything He knew my choises. My choises about the sence of life, and my choises about what I'm about to put on my bread.

He knows who I am, as the sum of what I was, what I am and what I will be.
He knows that I will love him if he attrackts me to Him.
But it is He who atrackts me to Him.

The problem is that I don't know if you will love Him.
I don't know what your choises will be, I don't even know your current choises or your past ones.
Do you?

We shouldn't worry about predestination (free-will or not) we should worry about our own choises.
We are free to chose. If you decide to follow God today, then nothing is going to stop you from that. And if you don't chose to do so today, don't bother about the question if it's God who stops you.

but cant people create all that good by themselves?

I think we can't.
We have no control over good and bad.
We didn't design good and bad. We try to control it, but we can't. Even if we know that it's not good to eat hamburgers every day, much people do so anyway.
If we have problems controlling hamburgers, how can we control all aspects of good?

is it just believing in god, something not-material or proveble, that makes us saved?

It's not the believing itself.
It's accepting and admitting that we cannot make the right choises, and that we are doomed if it were not for the sake that God came to earth to solve it Himself.
I believe that the above statement is true, I can see it in my own life, and I can see it when I read the newspaper (that we are doomed, that we, humans, cannot live a good life)

That's quiet a hard thing to believe, that we are no good and we will not be able to be good.
It's the hard truth, imho.

If you dislike that, you can always join any other religion. All religions claim that we can in the end be good and deserve the prize.
That shows how human those religions are. We cannot solve it, I don't believe we can.

if that is so god is asking complete and utterly loyality and faith from humans. then we would be servants to him/her and not childern of god

I would be very happy to be a servant of anybody who's completely good, and knows what is good for me best, and gives that to me as well. Who loves me, and died for me. He served me first, and I am very eager to serve Him for that.

But it's more than that. I serve Him bc I love Him. And I love Him bc He loves me.
And what's with serving if I agree with what he asks from me? Serving is a burden if one has to do things he dislikes. That is not the case though.

Danta probly had it best when the devil says "its better to rule in Hell then to serve in Heaven".

Danta doesn't know either hell or heaven.
One would be a fool to listen to someone who hasn't expierenced the things he speaks about.

Jesus both experienced hell and heaven. I'd rather follow Him than just another human who has an opinion that fits his own needs most of all.

The Devil then is the ultimate loner having comited to total independence.

Were it not that satan does not rule in hell.
I don't know who came up with the concept that satan is the king of hell while God is the king of heaven.

I also think you would be keept ignorant in Heaven as that would be blissfull.

Paul says that on the new earth we will see face to face, and understand all the riddles of life. I think we will finally understand good and evil. We will know it all.

the new earth will be not like the paradise for that reason. In paradise we were ignorant indeed. But on the new earth we'll be mature followers of God. People who were able to chose both good and evil, and made the right chose.

In hell we will never know anything.
How can we know if there's nothing. Who'll teach us?

[DeathByTheSword]

ok well thanks all for answering my questions....it gave me a very nice inside into believing in God...Thank god that it all was about believing and not religion...while i accept your answers and believes...i am not a believer or am seeking some truth...i am if anything an taoist. not from upbringing but bby choice...and ahving submerged myself in that 'culture' / 'truth' i had totally no reference or idea anymore about believing in God....so yet again thank

[DeathByTheSword]

then more in general:

i believe that ytou (everone that responded to my questions) have to little fate in the individual human. i have found out by trail and error in my very short time on this earth (i am 19) that a human being can do very much in the way of spiritual growth and trust...what is very funny about what you all said is that heaven is a place were we all go back to a childish and blessfull state...Taoisme goes from the assumption that every man or woman can create that state right her on earth. it is very funny to see so much the same...we all strive for the same think...but have totally different view on a) how to get there and b) what it actually is

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Capt Dizle
But salvation is a gift, given freely to us by God. It is not a reward nor wages nor a prize nor anything else related to our work.

A gift, free. Our inability to accept that is one of the primary impediments to our salvation. Too good to be true in human reasoning, but that is why it has been referred to as the "Good News". Look what God has done and rejoice!

Why can't God make us all able to accept it?

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by paiktis22
As the scriptures says you have to actually believe with all your heart the way you contact yourself. So heaven is not a prize if you do. More like what's coming to you if you think feel act a certain way. If one behaves a certain way only in order to go to heaven he's not doing what god allegendly wants so he won't go.

So you have to want it bad...well, not too bad, but seriously enough....but not too seriously ...

how much again?

[Robert Plomp]

i have found out by trail and error in my very short time on this earth (i am 19) that a human being can do very much in the way of spiritual growth and trust

Sure we can grow and learn from our mistakes.
But there are always new mistakes to be made.
Not to mention mistakes we don't notice, eventhough those mistakes influence our lifes, or the lifes of other people.

If everybody is learning from their mistakes, and we're all growing, and most people want to live a good life. Then why it's still such a mess on earth? And why are things still getting worse?

what is very funny about what you all said is that heaven is a place were we all go back to a childish and blessfull state...

It's surely funny since I didn't say that
This is what I said on that issue:

the new earth will be not like the paradise for that reason. In paradise we were ignorant indeed. But on the new earth we'll be mature followers of God. People who were able to chose both good and evil, and made the right chose.

Taoisme goes from the assumption that every man or woman can create that state right her on earth.

And, after thousands of years of modern history, did anybody so far achieve this?
In fact I believe that it's true that we're all trying to esteblish such a state right here. We're trying to found our own kingdom here, in which we can be happy and in which we can be king. Ruling over good and evil.

The problem is that all those kingdoms rule out all those kingdoms. My kingdom can't exist next to all those other kingdoms. We humans need each other. We can't live all by ourselves. And for some strange reason we can't agree on most issues. I don't see that end soon.

Pherhaps you can reach this state if you live on a deserter island all by yourself. But I wonder if that would make one happy.

Besides that, I wonder if that would make me happier than I currently am.

it is very funny to see so much the same...we all strive for the same think...but have totally different view on a) how to get there and b) what it actually is

That's funny and disturbing at the same time.
I'm happy that we can have our own opinions on it. And I wish all opinions are right, and everybody will be happy in the end.
But I'm afraid most opinions are wrong. Not because I want them to be wrong, but since I have no influence on the fact if they're wrong or not.

But the fact that it might be that some of us are wrong shouldn't be a stay in the way to have some good discussion on the issue. Since we can't prove our opinions, we should be humble, and accept and respect other opinions. I'm sorry that much christians do not. But understand that it comes from our certainly that 'you are wrong' while we wish the best for you.

It's as if we see you driving with 200mph to a blind wall. We want to stop you, but you insist on keep on driving. That frustrates us. Not bc we want to be right, but bc we don't want you to do.

But people are right. Pherhaps that blind wall only exists in our imagination. Pherhaps....

And that's why it's good to discuss these issues!
On a respectfull base.

Kucinich: Why can't God make us all able to accept it?

Have you ever tried to make anybody who disagrees with you accept your opinion? It's hardly possible.
If God will make you accept it, ?He has to change you totally. You won't be the same person. Do you want to change?

[bipolarbear]

Ok, if you do good things you are supposed to go to heaven, right? This doesn't make much sense to me, because it means god is either arbitrary or trying to bribe us:

If simply doing good things, not having good intentions, is what you have to do, then heaven is essentially a bribe from God. You would do good things not because you are a good person and stuff, but to get into heaven. This seems to make the whole concept rather shallow. In the other case, if you have to actually have good intentions, not simply be trying to get into heaven, then it's kind of pointless. The fact that good people would get into heaven wouldn't change anyone's behavior, because a person who wasn't inherently a "good person" would gain nothing by being altruistic, and a person who was altruistic would be that way anyways. It's essentially arbitrary on God's part, then - OK, everyone who is naturally a certain way, you go to heaven, the rest of you can burn forever.

God Jesus, his Holy GHost, and christainity are a friggin scam man. Not wroth a dime, let alone ten percent of your income.
I tried riding on that whole Jesus wagon ever since the day I was born, and got nothing out of it. Then all of a sudden, they tell em that they want the Bishop to come down and slap me, and have me swear in my fiath, nad life to god. Mna F*** THAT!! I'm not going to swear s*** at 14 yrs. old. How much of the world have I seen by then, for me to be able to swear my life over to some possibly fake diety. That's when I said screw thta man, I'm giving up this wholeCatholi(CUlt) CHristainity(Cult) thing, and exploring. I went Buddhist for a few months, until I found MARX!!!
Religion is the opiate of the masses, that sums up everyting. Find god, but not through some bs dogmatic ritual that is older than a friggin dinosaur skeleton.

[Ben Kenobi]

Holy thread resurrection, batman!

[Ben Kenobi]

Yeah, it's a bullshit bribe invented by some dude to get other dudes to do what he wanted.

Invented by whom?

It is entirely possible for a person to choose their personality - I've been doing that, so it is possible for a person to become inherently 'good', even by 'evil' motives.

How much control do you have over yourself, E-Nova? I think you are kidding yourself when you say you have complete control over your personality. If this were so, then none of us would need grace in order to be good persons.

[Ben Kenobi]

Death by the Sword:

what is living with god?...

We all get glimpses of what CS Lewis calls the 'far horizon.' What we get here on Earth is just a fraction of what we will receive when we die. There are several reasons for this.

First of all, you have to remember that our own bodies are flawed vessels. They can only take so much before they fall apart. This is why God has to replace our bodies, with better ones. We cannot get as close to God during our time on Earth, as we will in heaven because of the limitations of our bodies.

Still, we do get glimpses.

Living with God is like never being alone because you know that there is always someone who loves you, who cares about you, no matter what. Sometimes he shows you things, though most of the time you don't realise this until much later.

He fills your heart, and helps you through the hard times.

Sometimes he makes things tough on you to see how you respond.

I hope I helped you with your question. I still have much to learn myself.

[Ben Kenobi]

bipolarbear:

I tried riding on that whole Jesus wagon ever since the day I was born, and got nothing out of it.

Maybe you have to stop riding the wagon, and let him help you ride? There can be only one driver, and it's either you or him.

He can't do anything for you, until you admit that you need his help.

How much of the world have I seen by then, for me to be able to swear my life over to some possibly fake diety.

Well, I agree with you. If you don't want to be confirmed, you shouldn't be. Everyone has a different time when they are ready, and some take longer than others.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Have you ever tried to make anybody who disagrees with you accept your opinion? It's hardly possible.
If God will make you accept it, ?He has to change you totally. You won't be the same person. Do you want to change?

Is heaven merely the acceptance of God's goodness? Or is it actually being in his presence or whatever? Why can't he give us the opportunity to have all the good stuff of heaven? Or why can't he provide a fun "alternate activity" for those of us who opt out?

[Berzerker]

Emp Fab -

Uh...Pluto was discovered last century. Are you saying that all these cultures knew about it and all forgot?

Yes, Democritus, the Father of Greek astronomy, visited Egypt and Mesopotamia and announced upon his return to Greece that there were more planets than could be seen by the naked eye. There is a cylinder seal from Mesopotamia dating back ~4200 years showing a star surrounded by 11 planets ALL corresponding to the relative sizes of the planets in our system (given the limitations of the cylinder seal). This knowledge has lived on through mythology and sacred numbers, specifically 7 and 12, but since people cannot see these outer planets it's easy for the knowledge to be forgotten. In Dante's Inferno there is a description of Mars as a red river guarded or accompanied by 2 companions. In Greek mythology these 2 companions were the God of War's horses, Phobos and Deimos - the names given to Mars "moons". Mars has 2 moons and Dante, who merely used information from the Roman Virgil who in turn took information from Homer the Greek who undoubtedly used earlier knowledge, describes Mars as having 2 companions.

Impaler -

P.S. That stuff about the Firmements, planets and such reminds me of Immanuel Velikovsky. Basicly Psudo Science used to try to justify matters of pure faith.

Velikovsky claimed Venus was a comet that entered the system roughly 3,500 years ago and caused various phenomenon experienced at the time of Moses leading the Hebrews out of Egypt. Velikovsky did not write the Bible or invent "Heaven" so he's irrelevant to a discussion about the Firmament.

Basicaly an atempt to "half-belive" and "half-doupt" a position I find contemtable.

Velikovsky attempts to find a scientific explanation for "mythical" events, that's hardly a contemptable position. But you clearly don't know what I'm talking about, so use your ignorance elsewhere to "justify" your contempt.

I can atleast respect faith or ratinalize doupt but nothing in-between. Pick ONE faith OR doupt their is no middle ground!

I'm not impressed by "faith", it's a rather weak position to believe in something because you were told that's what others believe without evidence. However, since the notion of Heaven comes to us from antiquity, if we're to have any understanding of it we must learn what they believed. Dismissing the origins of Heaven based on the notion that people were primitive and ignorant back then is also a matter of faith. We are better served by learning what they believed and then adopting or dismissing their claims based on the facts.
When I see evidence of ancient knowledge of our solar system I cannot dismiss it, I'll keep looking...

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Kucinich


Is heaven merely the acceptance of God's goodness? Or is it actually being in his presence or whatever? Why can't he give us the opportunity to have all the good stuff of heaven? Or why can't he provide a fun "alternate activity" for those of us who opt out?

God's spirit fills the world but in heaven he dwells in His fullness, and those who have faith and are saved dwell there in his presence. For the opportunity is given through faith in the sacrifice of the Christ. If you opt out, you are on your own.

[Berzerker]

Btw, the reason "faith" was important back in ancient times was because people lacked the science to understand God and the nature of existence. According to myths from around the world God, or the Gods, were here interacting with people but left at some point leaving us on our own, and that's when faith became more important.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Capt Dizle
God's spirit fills the world but in heaven he dwells in His fullness, and those who have faith and are saved dwell there in his presence. For the opportunity is given through faith in the sacrifice of the Christ. If you opt out, you are on your own.

On my own where? Are you saying hell is just a sort of limbo, where I sit in a sort of sensory-deprivation tank or something?

Plus, why does God demand that I worship him in order to get the good stuff? Isn't that a little childish?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Kucinich


I'm an atheist, I'm just posing a question so that I can prove that being religious is stupid.

There -- I think this is what you meant in explaining the purpose of your thread.

[Robert Plomp]

Is heaven merely the acceptance of God's goodness?

The new earth (no christian goes to 'heaven') is for those who accept the truth about humanity and God's intervention. Everybody who accepts that he cannot become good by himself, but only by divine intervention will be made good by divine intervention.

Of course, somebody who doesn't believe that God is good doesn't want to be 'changed' by God, since he doesn't trust God. I trust God, I want him to change me.

Or is it actually being in his presence or whatever?

God will live on the new earth among us.
As he was with 'us' in the paradise. That's what we are made for, to be compagnions of God.

Why can't he give us the opportunity to have all the good stuff of heaven?

Because he already gave us, but since we are no good we messed it up. As long as we're no good, God can give us the good things, but we can't handle it.
God needs to renew us.

If you don't want to be renewed, you can stick to the person you are. But don't ask for the good stuff. You can't handle it.

It's as with a computer.
If you have an old computer, but want to play the newest game anyway, you won't be able.
You can try to get a better computer, but if you're a complete rookie, you can try but you can't achieve it.
You need to trust your computer supplier to renew your computer, so you can play the game
The problem is that we, humans, are either in denial that our computer isn't good enough, or trying to fix it ourselves. While the computer supplier wants to help us for free! He's knocking on our door.

Plus, why does God demand that I worship him in order to get the good stuff? Isn't that a little childish?

This question has already been commented on earlier in this thread. Did you read your own thread?

I'm an atheist, I'm just posing a question so that I can prove that being religious is stupid.

I agree, religion is stupid. Christianity is not a religion (eventough much people, even christians think)
The christian faith tells us the truth about our situation. It's not a 'way of life to achive something'

unfortunately most people think so

[Berzerker]

"Heaven" is the asteroid belt, or more importantly, it's where "the Creator" passes through the solar system at perihelion. That's why the "cross" is so important in mythology, "Nibiru", the name given this planet by the Sumerians means "the planet of the crossing". The cross symbolises a highly eccentic ellipse crossing a circle at a virtually perpendicular angle...

[Impaler[WrG]]

I fell that "Religion" as in a group of people, customs, rituals, buildings ect ect that exist to indoctrinate the youth with a set of ridgid belifes is the ultimate Evill.

How many wars have been though because of ridgid befief systems about god or the afterlife? How many cities destroyed, people killed or maimed, people worked to death and other alowed to grow fat off their labors all in the name of a Religion.

Now how much evil has been done in the world because a man doupted what someone else told him. Because he though first, because he found out for himself what to think. NONE I say!! It has been the key to every fredom we enjoy, the foundation of all knowlage and social progress no less.

Doupt is truely what will make the world better, but it will not bring us the bliss that most desire. Doupt is by its very nature distressing, it naws at you, drives you, keeps you from being comfortable. Look at all the great Doupter of History Socrates, did he say happyness was the greatest goal? No, it was self examination and doupt that was our goal. As he said "the unexamind life is not worth living" and this is what we need to do endlessly examine everything around us and in us and never have the vanity to think we have found an untimate answer, the doupt must always remain with us.

I dont consider Jesus to be devine, rather he was a Profit like many before and since. Basicaly a man who examined the world around him and came up with an idea and dedicated his life to spreading that idea. His idea was one of the most significant in history and not suprisingly he like most Profits got killed by the athority figures of the day. Its unfortunat that a "Religion" has usurped and encrusted itself around many of histories greatest Profits and acted to distort their ideas or deflect people from them.

[Robert Plomp]

How many wars have been though because of ridgid befief systems about god or the afterlife?

yeah, that's what most people say these days.
It's a very shortsighted thing to say. And it proves that todays people are indoctrinated with modern theories. It doesn't matter if these theories are true or not.

Many wars have been fought. Some over racial differences, others over power and indeed others over religious issues. The thing is that we, humans, tend to make war over things. No matter what the subject is.

It's not as if people stop making war if they lose their religion.

But if you examine it very well, you would see that christianity is against making war over religion.
Any person that tries to force someone else to live to his faith can't be a christian (or at least doesn't know what he's believing)

The christian message is a personal message. You can't force anyone to live to that message. You have to believe it yourself.

[Kuciwalker]

Cybershy, you're right - it's not that Christianity is bad, it's that there've never actually been Christians. There never will be, either.

[Ben Kenobi]

it's that there've never actually been Christians.

Christians do bad things. So do atheists.

If this is your standard, why are you an atheist?

Secondly, there has been a proper Christian who inspires all the rest of us.

[Kuciwalker]

But doing good things isn't a part of atheism. Atheism has nothing to do with morality. Thus, there have been atheists.

[Berzerker]

Why doesn't atheism have anything to do with morality? Right and wrong require neither a god nor the absence of a god...

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Secondly, there has been a proper Christian who inspires all the rest of us.

BK -- your high praise of me is an embarrassment.

[Ben Kenobi]

But doing good things isn't a part of atheism.

So why be an atheist?

[Ben Kenobi]

BK -- your high praise of me is an embarrassment.

Where's the nail marks?