How far did the Gibson apple fall from the tree?

[Drake Tungsten]

So the church encourages ignorance, and unquestioned belief?

No; it isn't Islam.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Maybe you forgot about the Islamic scholars during the middle ages in Europe. Far from unquestioned belief and ignorance.

[Berzerker]

Strangelove -

Who ran away?

You did, when I refuted your BS you changed the subject to me allegedly wanting to make it illegal for Christians to practice medicine, i.e., more BS.

You made a sweeping bigoted proclamation of your disrespect for Christians and I revealed it for what it was. You made no rebuttal.

First, why is it bigotry to reject someone's belief as bogus? Second, I never mentioned all Christians or Christianity, just Gibson and people with his religious view that blames us all for killing Jesus. You and Imran have tried to turn that into a comment about all Christians, but anyone reading what I said can see I was referring only to Gibson and people who share his belief...

That is what you said, and apparently most of the witnesses agree with me.

Most? So far only Imran has duplicated your mistake while Ben and Gepap understand what I said.

Let's go over it again: You pronounce your disdain for all Christians.

You aren't using a quote, why is that? Oh yeah, because you can't. Where did I say I have disdain for all Christians. Ben is a Christian and he doesn't agree with you, he agrees with me. I reject a belief held by certain people, real simple.

I point out the basic bigotry of your statement.

No, you called it bigotry after changing what I said. That doesn't point anything out except your inability (wilfull?) to comprehend what I typed.

You then announce that anyone having these beliefs is unfit to practice medicine.

I did? Can you quote me on that one too?

I reply by pointing out that your implied desire to cut off a segment of the population from the profession of Medicine is somewhat ironic coming from someone who calls himself a libertarian.

Hmm...I never mentioned Christians who practice medicine, I merely expressed astonishment someone like you could get a license to practice given your inability to employ logic in this debate. Do you now represent the mental capacity of all Christians? God I hope not, and certainly you don't represent Ben.

The term "collective guilt" is yours, not Gibson's or mine. What Christians believe in isn't "collective guilt" per se.

It isn't my term, it's the term used by Jewish critics of his movie and the alleged portrayal in the original version of Jews as guilty by association - a collective guilt for Jesus' death - a guilt Gibson replaced by indicting us all. Why is it wrong for Gibson to have a line in the original cut where a Jew says Jesus' blood is on them and their children but it's okay for him to replace that line by indicting everyone and their children?

Christians believe that we all have the capacity for evil, that we all express this capacity throughout our lives, and that the people who executed Chirst are all like us and we're all like them. When Mel Gibson says that he killed Christ he doesn't mean that literally. He means that he isn't perfect, and that he has no special claim for moral superiority.

So now you speak for Christians? Gibson didn't say "he" killed Christ, he said "we" killed him. And I reject the notion that because we all have a capacity for evil the people who killed Jesus are like us. Why not just exonerate the Nazis with that gibberish? Hey, they are just like us... Speak for yourself, Doc...

[Drake Tungsten]

I guess that's a tacit admission that modern day Islam is, for the most part, a religion that encourages ignorance and unquestioned belief...

[Imran Siddiqui]

You and Imran have tried to turn that into a comment about all Christians, but anyone reading what I said can see I was referring only to Gibson and people who share his belief...

You were talking about all the members of Gibson's religion. Tell me, what is Gibson's religion, Berz?

[Berzerker]

He belongs to some branch of catholicism. Are you suggesting there are no differences among the various sects of Christianity?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I guess that's a tacit admission that modern day Islam is, for the most part, a religion that encourages ignorance and unquestioned belief...

As much as Catholicism .

He belongs to some branch of catholicism. Are you suggesting there are no differences among the various sects of Christianity?

Are you suggesting he isn't a Christian? You didn't say the members of his sect, you said the members of his religion. His reliigon is Christian. His sect of that religion is pre-Vatican II Catholic. The different between the sects is my entire point! Thanks .

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Remember, you had many Jewish communities in the Roman Empire and only Jerusalem revolted and was crushed. The rest stayed obedient.

Not quite true. There were three main Jewish revolts, the third taking place after the destruction of Jerusalem, a messianic revolt that encompassed the province of Judaea.

[Drake Tungsten]

As much as Catholicism.

While I would never defend the dirty papists, I've never seen or heard of them doing any sort of brainwashing that compares to what goes on in madrasas all over the world. The sight of all those kids rocking back and forth, memorizing the Koran scares the living **** out of me.

[Ben Kenobi]

Berz:

We have an episcopalian, a Catholic and a Mennonite just in this thread. If you include Mad Monk, you have a reformed, and apologies to anyone I forgot.

There are different denominations, but on this point they all agree.

So your point again?

As for the good Doc speaking for all Christians, on this point, I have no problem having him speak for me.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The sight of all those kids rocking back and forth, memorizing the Koran scares the living **** out of me.

So no child in all Christianity memorizes the Bible? No one memorizes how to say a "Hail Mary"?

What is the brainwashing you speak of?

[Ben Kenobi]

You SOOOO left yourself open for a snarky remark with this

Never thought of that when I made the post.

Drake:

Thank you

[Ben Kenobi]

No one memorizes how to say a "Hail Mary"?

Not in my church.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You aren't Catholic... stop it .

You're a Reformed Church member, IIRC.

[Drake Tungsten]

So no child in all Christianity memorizes the Bible?

It's not that common and it certainly isn't considered the end all, be all of education as memorization of the Koran is in many parts of the world.

What is the brainwashing you speak of?

You don't find being forced to memorize a religious text and treat it as the word of God and basis for all laws and governance to be slightly reminiscent of brainwashing? I don't think learning to be a "slave of Allah" is something most kids set out to do of their own accord.

Drake:

Thank you

No problem.

[Ben Kenobi]

Imran:

episcopalian, a Catholic and a Mennonite

And remember the good Doc is the Episcopalian.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's not that common and it certainly isn't considered the end all, be all of education as memorization of the Koran is in many parts of the world.

Like where? If you are studying to be an Imam, it's something. If you aren't, no one cares. Really, you should know about a religion because you slam it .

You don't find being forced to memorize a religious text and treat it as the word of God and basis for all laws and governance to be slightly reminiscent of brainwashing?

You mean like Baptists do? You mean like they did around 1000?

How many states are run like that? What, 5? Iran, parts of Nigeria, Yemen, damn I don't know any others . Even Saudi Arabia isn't run that way.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Berz:

We have an episcopalian, a Catholic and a Mennonite just in this thread. If you include Mad Monk, you have a reformed, and apologies to anyone I forgot.

There are different denominations, but on this point they all agree.

So your point again?

As for the good Doc speaking for all Christians, on this point, I have no problem having him speak for me.

any reason you don't include me

Jon Miller

[Drake Tungsten]

Like where?

Pakistan? It would probably take me five minutes to find a madrasa in Peshawar, as long as some nutjob didn't cap my infidelic ass first.

We don't even need to talk about Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, Indonesia, etc...

parts of Nigeria, Yemen,

Damn, forgot about them. I bet I could find some in Sudan, Somalia and Malysia, too; maybe even the Phillipines and Kuwait. I'm probably forgetting other, as well.

You mean like they did around 1000?

Who care about what happened in 1000? Live in the now, where the Christians are the normal ones and the Muslims are the insane zealots...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Pakistan? It would probably take me five minutes to find a madrasa in Peshawar

My parents are from Pakistan. No one in my family has memorized the Koran. Try again.

We don't even need to talk about Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, Indonesia, etc...

Again, memorizing the Koran is only important if you want to be an Imam. I bet there are plenty of priests who have their favorite biblical passages memorized.

Who care about what happened in 1000?

So you admit that Baptists treat the Bible like the word of God and use it for their basis of law and governances. Good, we are getting somewhere .

[Ben Kenobi]

and apologies to anyone I forgot.

Jon:

Sorry.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[

So no child in all Christianity memorizes the Bible? No one memorizes how to say a "Hail Mary"?

What is the brainwashing you speak of?

"Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man."

The Jesuits.

Well, I memorized the Hail Mary, the Lord's Prayer, the Magnificat, the De Profundis, and my catechism, because you get tested on it if you're a Catholic.

And I read and memorized the Bible too. I was real Catholic. Of course, if you're really fervent, you go on retreats, and meditate on Christ's wounds, et cetera, et cetera. And in the Philippines you get yourself nailed to a cross, although possibly not as part of a holiday package..

[Imran Siddiqui]

Thanks molly... I almost forgot those Mormon's too, who also believe society should be organized on their religious texts.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

So no child in all Christianity memorizes the Bible?

Some idiots probably do - but the bible is so contradictory you would be totally confused.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Thanks molly... I almost forgot those Mormon's too, who also believe society should be organized on their religious texts.

Ecumenically yours.

Let's not forget the religionistas who want civil marriages to adhere to their religious beliefs, too- and certain judges who want their religious beliefs enshrined in stone.

Any religion worth its salt hopes to 'brainwash' its followers- group meetings, reinforcement of a community focus, sodalities, religious instruction from an early age, Sunday school, school prayer in religious schools- the Catholic church ran my infant and junior schools, we had holy days of obligation, when you HAD to attend mass before school, memorized prayers and hymns, had rites marking passage into different stages of faith (first Holy Communion, Confirmation) we chose another name for ourselves based on a saint, we watched films on religious subjects, some went on pilgrimages to Lourdes, or Fatima, or Walsingham, we read books on early Christian martyrs.....

Not much difference between my Muslim friends' upbringings and mine, except they were allowed to have Protestant friends and I wasn't.

[Drake Tungsten]

My parents are from Pakistan. No one in my family has memorized the Koran. Try again.

I never said everyone in Pakistan memorizes the Koran in a madrasa. A large number do, though, particularly in regions like Baluchistan and Waziristan. Those are the people and regions that scare the **** out of me. Quit trying to change the subject.

Again, memorizing the Koran is only important if you want to be an Imam.

Not true. It's the main focus of education for youths in fundamentalist areas. They certainly don't teach science or any other ideas thought up by the infidels.

So you admit that Baptists treat the Bible like the word of God and use it for their basis of law and governances.

I really wouldn't know, as I have no clue what Baptist religious doctrine is like. Try again.

Well, I memorized the Hail Mary, the Lord's Prayer, the Magnificat, the De Profundis, and my catechism, because you get tested on it if you're a Catholic.

I doubt you sat in a room all day for years, rocking back and forth in an almost trance-like state whilst memorizing every word in the Bible. Let's try to get some perspective here, people.

[Shi Huangdi]

"Well, I memorized the Hail Mary, the Lord's Prayer, the Magnificat, the De Profundis, and my catechism, because you get tested on it if you're a Catholic."

Not for most catholics today.

[Berzerker]

Imran -

Are you suggesting he isn't a Christian?

I'm suggesting his views aren't necessarily shared by all Christians. Is he a Christian? Not in my opinion, but he can call himself whatever he wants. You didn't answer my question, learning from Strangelove?

You didn't say the members of his sect, you said the members of his religion.

There's a difference? If all Christians don't share that specific belief, then obviously "his" religion doesn't represent all of Christianity.

His reliigon is Christian.

No, his religion is a branch of Catholicism, apparently one that doesn't even agree with the Vatican's exoneration of the Jews.
That's why Christians divide themselves into different religions or sects within Christianity, to reflect disagreements thay have with each other. The Protestant religion is not the Catholic religion and neither is the Quaker religion...

His sect of that religion is pre-Vatican II Catholic. The different between the sects is my entire point! Thanks .

If that was your point why are you claiming a reference to Gibson and his religion actually refers to people who don't belong to his religion? I've never heard the phrase "the Catholic sect", have you? Why is Catholicism by itself a religion if it can only be a "sect" according to your argument?

Ben -

Berz:

We have an episcopalian, a Catholic and a Mennonite just in this thread. If you include Mad Monk, you have a reformed, and apologies to anyone I forgot.

Are these religions?

There are different denominations, but on this point they all agree.

On what point?

So your point again?

The claim shared by Gibson and members of his religion that "we" killed Jesus is bogus and I reject this belief and their religion.

As for the good Doc speaking for all Christians, on this point, I have no problem having him speak for me.

Do you speak for all Christians? I have to ask because I didn't ask Strangelove if he spoke for you... But since you now say he speaks for you, would you care to defend the accusations he made on your behalf?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Indeed... I guess that it must be inherant in any religion. It's a way to keep followers and have a ready base from the children of current believers.

[Alexander's Horse]

Yes but you're not a real catholic, only a pretend one.