If God is supreme, how does the devil rival him? - Page 3

Nubclear · February 27, 2004, 02:28

I'm a Christian commie too

Sava · February 27, 2004, 02:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
I'm a Christian commie too

no, yer an pvil ruskie

Nubclear · February 27, 2004, 02:30

Americans are _________, throw _________ at them!

Imran Siddiqui · February 27, 2004, 02:31

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he's a christian commie.... that's like a "moderate libertarian"

Yep... since I'm quite aware of many Christian Communist scholars

. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Shi Huangdi · February 27, 2004, 02:32

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Originally posted by Aeson

This doesn't make any sense. If God created perfect entities who then chose to become 'demons' or whatever outside the world and the temporal system then why can't someone make the opposite choice under the same circumstances? Does free will cease to exist after we die?

If they are still capable of repenting and there is enough good left in them, then yes, they can be saved.

But keep in mind that the world exists in time. The afterlife does not. While on Earth, we can work on our soul, can choose to turn away from God or move towards him. But after death, you are now outside of time and your soul is locked into place as it was when you died. Time in its most literal sense, is up.

Ancyrean · February 27, 2004, 02:33

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Originally posted by Sava
but if god is omniscient, he knew there would be evil... so he knowingly created evil... doesn't that make god evil?

God did not create evil. He gave the created the ability to choose. That refers to human beings, for us, God is not as visible as the comp screen before you, but rather, you have the choice of believing him or rejecting him. This ability to choose is what makes man superior to angels. And Satan is angel too, and angels by definition are intelligent but God is obvious to them, unlike us, so they have no choice. For them, it's not an issue of believing, it's one of seeing. Satan rebelled against God in full knowledge of God and his infinite wisdom. That was why he's an outcast now. Cursed, that is.

The whole idea of God vs Satan is a misconception of God, and elevation of Satan to a contender to God. There's no contest. We as humans everyday make choices and decisions. We are responsible in this world before the law and in the other before God for our choices. Satan's role is he reminds of the "bad" choice, he whispers it into our heart. This as such is not a war against God, but against man.

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YOU SEXIST MALE PIGS! GOD IS NOT NECESSARILY A HE!!!!!!!!!! IF I DON'T SEE YOU REFFERING TO GOD A S/HE SOON I'M GONNA HAVE THE GUERILLA GOIRLS ON YOUR ASS FASTER THAN YOU CAN SAY FEMINAZI!

God has no sex, sex is an attribute of the created, not the creator. God needs no reproduction. As such, God is not a he or she, but the structure of western languages imposes a sexual difference in concepts in the minds of their speakers. In Turkish for example, there's no gender for third persons, everybody is referred to as the same third person singular ("o"). I don't know how to sole this dilemma in English, but I guess I have to stick with the conventional "he"

.

monkspider · February 27, 2004, 02:34

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Originally posted by MrBaggins

Does pro-god or anti-god have anything to do with social justice issues?

Philosophies that represent the opposite of God's nature are anti-God. Jimmytrick has made it quite clear on numerous occassions that he supports such philosophies and has shown considerable disdain towards philosophies that do manifest God's nature in one form or another.

As for the priest, well, I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

Aeson · February 27, 2004, 02:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi

Because God created us, and Satan moreso, so with a strong intellect and will that would be capable of comprehending such issues. Being able to comprehend the choice to love God or to not love God, and especially to have the capacity to choose to reject God, is nessecary in order to freely choose to love God. And if we did not have that choice, our love could not be genuine.

So he created us with the knowlege. Do you thus agree that having knowlege (as would pertain to the choice and it's consequences) is a prerequisite of having the ability to choose?

If he gave us the knowlege to know how to choose, and like you say, being with him is where we are most happy (eh, whatever that means), why would anyone or anything choose to be anywhere but where they were most happy? (while given a perfect knowlege of the choices available and the consequences of their decision)

Why are we on the other hand required to chose without a perfect knowlege?

Shi Huangdi · February 27, 2004, 02:35

"Perhaps, however they are further away from God than a devout Christian, correct? "

While the devout Christian may have a closer relationship with God, both the Christian and the athiest are equally in a God-Filled world that was God's good creation.

"Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven".

I don't know what authority anyone can have in hell, but the choice is certainly there for anyone to make if they don't want to serve God.

Aeson · February 27, 2004, 02:37

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But keep in mind that the world exists in time. The afterlife does not. While on Earth, we can work on our soul, can choose to turn away from God or move towards him. But after death, you are now outside of time and your soul is locked into place as it was when you died. Time in its most literal sense, is up.

Still doesn't make any sense. If a choice could be made outside this life and world... outside time as you say... before when Lucifer made his choice, then why not after we die as well? You say they chose to move away from God while not alive, why can't we move towards God while not alive? If you can't move towards or away from God outside of this life, then how did Lucifer move away from God without ever being born into this world?

monolith94 · February 27, 2004, 02:38

Shi, you seem to be under the impression that demons (fallen angels) have free will. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that Angels have free will.

"But why would they rebel if they don't have free-will?" one asks. And there is the problem: the solution of course is to realize that they are tools of God's wrath, which is the mirror of God's grace.

Nubclear · February 27, 2004, 02:38

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While the devout Christian may have a closer relationship with God, both the Christian and the athiest are equally in a God-Filled world that was God's good creation.

But a devout Christian is closer. Therefore happier, correct?
Your acting like a religious fundie....

Shi Huangdi · February 27, 2004, 02:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeson

So he created us with the knowlege. Do you thus agree that having knowlege (as would pertain to the choice and it's consequences) is a prerequisite of having the ability to choose?

If he gave us the knowlege to know how to choose, and like you say, being with him is where we are most happy (eh, whatever that means), why would anyone or anything choose to be anywhere but where they were most happy? (while given a perfect knowlege of the choices available and the consequences of their decision)

Why are we on the other hand required to chose without a perfect knowlege?

Whether or not we know of God, he still acts on us through the Holy Spirit and through our conscience. If imperfect knowledge was the impediment, we hold out hope that through the extraordinary power and grace of God that they can be saved.

With perfect knowledge, you ask why anyone would not choose God. While it is certainly in our interest to choose God, and that would be the most rational choose, we don't not always make the best or most rational choice as is plainly visible.

Imran Siddiqui · February 27, 2004, 02:40

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the choice is certainly there for anyone to make if they don't want to serve God.

Humanity decided slavery to other humans was wrong. I think it is about time to say being slaves to a deity is wrong as well.

Drake Tungsten · February 27, 2004, 02:40

I'm a slave to Allah.

Shi Huangdi · February 27, 2004, 02:41

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Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar

Quote:

While the devout Christian may have a closer relationship with God, both the Christian and the athiest are equally in a God-Filled world that was God's good creation.

But a devout Christian is closer. Therefore happier, correct?
Your acting like a religious fundie....

It depends. That person may acknowledge God publicly, but we don't know the interiror state of the relationship with God. But to answer your question, yes, if they are much closer, and their wants and desires are most pefectly aligned with God's as we have seen in some of the Saints, that is when we will have the most true happiness on Earth.

Ancyrean · February 27, 2004, 02:41

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Originally posted by jimmytrick
I believe in God. I believe that the Bible is inspired, that the Bible should be spiritually interpreted rather than literally, but God, who is a spirit, is also real, alive and among us always.

Satan is the master of this world only by the will of God, which surpasses our understanding. Satan is no rival of God, but is also a spirit and also real, alive and among us always.

God cannot be defined as "alive", which connotes there's death for him too. He's omnipresent and allpowerful

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You have the wrong idea of heaven. It's not a place of a bunch of clubs and fat babies with wings playing on harps, nor is hell a cafe with a bunch of men in red tights poking you with pitchforks.

Heaven is complete and perfect spiritual union with God, and the spiritual state in which we are most happy. Hell is the state of complete and perfect isolation from God, and the spiritual state in which we are most unhappy.

If you don't love God, why would you want to be in heaven and united with that which you do not love.

Heaven is a state and a place of happiness and maturity from "sin".

Hell, on the other hand, is as much a place of pain as it is one of maturation, a process of getting rid of your side that forced you to do the "sins" that you did. It's a place of purification

Even the satan will get his share of purification, but it will be rether, ah, "long", before this happens.

And God's onminpresence means that nowhere are you isolated from God. He's the creator of all the universes, known and unkonwn to us, he's present all around us, in all of those universes. He knows our heart and mind. He's forgiving

By the way, this is the way some (not all) aspects of God and heaven or hell or evill is explained in Islam. I find it much more consistent

monkspider · February 27, 2004, 02:42

Titles like Christian, Communist, Libertarian, they are ultimately meaningless.

There are ultimately only two schools of thought in the world. Those that choose to represent God's true nature of love, cooperation and brotherhood and those that choose to represent the opposite.

I have chosen to adopt the title of Communist simply because it is mankind's best effort so far to manifest God's true nature. It is not perfect, but it is a decent first step and that is something that humanity can be very proud of.

Aeson · February 27, 2004, 02:42

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With perfect knowledge, you ask why anyone would not choose God. While it is certainly in our interest to choose God, and that would be the most rational choose, we don't not always make the best or most rational choice as is plainly visible.

But we don't have perfect knowlege. Hindsight is 20/20, and most of us would do things differently given our knowlege of what occured due to our choices. That is given a better knowlege of the circumstances and consequences. With a perfect knowlege of the circumstances and consequences, wouldn't we all make the choice that is best for us? (ie. one that we would not regret and want to redo, because it would be our 'perfect' course of action and we would know so)

Sava · February 27, 2004, 02:43

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God did not create evil. He gave the created the ability to choose.

so? he still knows what we will choose... and he still knew that Satan would be evil... so he created evil

Nubclear · February 27, 2004, 02:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi

It depends. That person may acknowledge God publicly, but we don't know the interiror state of the relationship with God. But to answer your question, yes, if they are much closer, and their wants and desires are most pefectly aligned with God's as we have seen in some of the Saints, that is when we will have the most true happiness on Earth.

Alright....

Athiests, are you miserable?

Shi Huangdi · February 27, 2004, 02:45

"And God's onminpresence means that nowhere are you isolated from God. He's the creator of all the universes, known and unkonwn to us, he's present all around us, in all of those universes. He knows our heart and mind. He's forgiving "

God also wants to fufill what we want, and some people just don't want anything to do with God. For those who don't want God, he withdraws or conceals his presence from them.

Aeson · February 27, 2004, 02:46

I'm miserable, but I'm agnostic. I was Christian growing up, and was just as miserable.

monkspider · February 27, 2004, 02:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
so? he still knows what we will choose... and he still knew that Satan would be evil... so he created evil

God created us to have the option to choose, some of us choose evil, others do not. Lucifer just happened to choose evil.

Shi Huangdi · February 27, 2004, 02:49

Also, Ancyrean, I pose to you this, if Hell is temporary, what if I don't want to ever be with God or a slave to him if I hate him so much? Why should I ever have to go into perfect union with Allah? If in the end we all have to choose Allah anyway, that there really isn't a whole lot of free will.

"Athiests, are you miserable?"

I never said that. As I said, Athiests are still in God's world and God can still act on them through their conscience.

Shi Huangdi · February 27, 2004, 02:50

Monkspider, would you mind relieving me here? It's late here on the east coast and i'd like to get a bried workout in before I go to bed.

Nubclear · February 27, 2004, 02:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
I never said that. As I said, Athiests are still in God's world and God can still act on them through their conscience.

But what of their free will? Why would god influence them when they clearly want nothing to do with them?

This is fun

monkspider · February 27, 2004, 02:51

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Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Monkspider, would you mind relieving me here? It's late here on the east coast and i'd like to get a bried workout in before I go to bed.

No prob. Good night.

Shi Huangdi · February 27, 2004, 02:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar

But what of their free will? Why would god influence them when they clearly want nothing to do with them?

This is fun

Free will persists. The Athiest can choose to ignore any external influence and do what they want should they so choose.

Shi Huangdi · February 27, 2004, 02:52

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider

No prob. Good night.

Night Monkspider.