If God is supreme, how does the devil rival him?

[Shogun Gunner]

Ying and Yang. You need one for the other.

Every comic needs a "straight man"

Perhaps God is still awaiting UN approval before he annihilates the Devil.

[Elok]

Originally posted by East Street Trader
Er, do you care to explain?

Are you saying that there are clocks in Heaven and Hell?

Maybe there are, and they live on a different scale or aspect of time from us.

But I'm saying that clocks have nothing to do with it. God is omnipresent in time just as he is omnipresent in space; he doesn't see the future, he's there already. And here. And four hundred years ago. All at once. At least, that's how speculation usually goes. Which is all this is.

I think of God's "omnitemporality" as sort of like a function of space-time. At any given point in time, he is omnipresent throughout space, and at any given point in space he is omnipresent throughout time. But that's just my spin. Whatever the situation is, it's not going to be something we can really understand.

What makes man unique is not free will; like I said, it's not a law, it's a phrase to describe the nature of our consciousness. Chimps pretty clearly have some amount of free will, as do dolphins and other intelligent animals. It's simply less in size and power than ours, and lacking the divine "spark" that really makes us special. Whatever "the image and likeness of God" is, we have it and nobody else does. But it's not unlikely that angels would have their own portion of free will, IMO.

As to Ogie's question, I don't know that the devils would have lost all their power when they turned from God, whether they were subservient or not. We're definitely subservient, and Adam's never described doing anything before the Fall that we can't do. The devils might be merely limited to keep them from causing too much trouble all at once. Like in the book of Job.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ogie:

Not up on my Old Testament but does the OT ever describe God creating Angels?

Not sure where, but Angels are creations of God, similar, yet different from men.

Similiarly does the OT give credence that there may have been other supernatural entities from the beginning times?

No. God is one, in the OT. You do not see any reference to the Trinity until the New Testament.

Could the existance of Angels be that in the beginning there were numerous supernatural beings of which God is the creator of the Universe the other lesser ones were along for the ride.

Nope. Again, Angels are not God, they are created beings. Men are forbidden to worship angels, hence they must be created. Only God existed in the beginning times as you so put it.

God being the (assumedly) most powerful of these other beings had the other lesser beings in his corner as it were until such time as Lucifer decided to part ways.

God had to be the most powerful, otherwise, he would not be God. God created them, hence he can uncreate them, so he should choose. But if Angels have some semblence of free will, then God will not want to erase them utterly, but would prefer to put them in exile.

Seems to me that there is evidence that other supernatural effects were capable of being done through sorcery etc. Refernce the magicians of the Pharoah albeit significantly weaker than the magiks performed by Moses.

Yes, and there are other sections on False prophets, which talk of signs and wonders intended to decieve believers.

If these beings co-existed with God it would explain their ability to show independent action.

No. We show independent action, yet we did not co-exist with God. Angels are created beings just like ourselves. Oddly, man is said to be offered dominion over the Angels in heaven.

I realize Judeo-Christian teachings say their is only one true God the creator, but that IMO does not rule out coexistance of supernatural beings from beginning times that did not play a part in the creationof the universe.

Yes it does. To be eternal with God before all worlds, is to be God himself.

[Ben Kenobi]

Lorizael:

Very good question.

One solution that is offered to your difference is to sift out different categories of Angels. Some of them will be messengers of God, who lack the free will to do things on their own.

Others, will be his host, and do have the capacity to free will. One of his host, would be Lucifer, who would have the capacity of free will.

[Ben Kenobi]

Judges 13:16

The angel of the LORD replied, "Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the LORD ." (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the LORD .)


So we see here in the OT, and angel discourages people from worshipping him, rather than his master.

[sprucemoose3311]

are we talking american catholicism, american protestantism, or others?





Go Unitarians!!

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Ogie:



Not sure where, but Angels are creations of God, similar, yet different from men.

I seem to recall that as well but for the life of me can't find the passage. For the purpose of arguement lets say that it wasn't explicitly stated at least for now (until shown otherwise that is)

No. God is one, in the OT. You do not see any reference to the Trinity until the New Testament.

I don't dispute this within the context that God is the one and only creator of this universe. But... and stretch with me on this one, what if pre-creation God was not alone but had lesser supernatural beings forces that were seperate entities. They played no part in creation of this universe but once created desired to partake in the gift of God. They followed God in that he was omnipotent and omnipresent within his creation (our universe) and in order to have access to his creation had to abide by his rules.

That is until such time as Lucifer saw otherwise.

Nope. Again, Angels are not God, they are created beings. Men are forbidden to worship angels, hence they must be created. Only God existed in the beginning times as you so put it.

Didn't claim they were but that they were supernatural. If you follow the logic set in the previous passage one of the rules was that the true God was the only one who could take credit for his creation. Hence the reason why angels could never be worshipped.

God had to be the most powerful, otherwise, he would not be God. God created them, hence he can uncreate them, so he should choose. But if Angels have some semblence of free will, then God will not want to erase them utterly, but would prefer to put them in exile.

Assuming the above either of the options is available to God excepting that a merciful God would likely side on exile.

Yes, and there are other sections on False prophets, which talk of signs and wonders intended to decieve believers.

But it never truly describes where these supernatural powers are derived from. The Bible gives credence to the fact that witchcraft/sorcery existed just that it paled in comparison to the strength of the Lord.

[quote]
No. We show independent action, yet we did not co-exist with God. Angels are created beings just like ourselves. Oddly, man is said to be offered dominion over the Angels in heaven.
[\quote]

But perhaps the reason angels have free will is because they are independent noncreated creatures albeit lesser ones. AS for the reason why man is given dominion over angels in heaven is that it is man's birthright as occupiers of this universe as opposed to tourist angels.

Yes it does. To be eternal with God is to be God himself.

I'm not sure I follow you here. The life ever after is that we share God's presence, sharing like purposes, knowledge etc. Does it mean we sever our identity as well?

[Ben Kenobi]

Ogie Oglethorpe:

Thank you very much for catching a mistake.

But... and stretch with me on this one, what if pre-creation God was not alone

Cannot work that way. If Angels are created, then how can they be with God before Creation? There are only two persons, Christ and the Holy Spirit that were with God in the beginning, and have always been with God.

Once God starts time, he can make lesser beings like Angels, with free will apart from God.

but had lesser supernatural beings forces that were seperate entities.

But it never truly describes where these supernatural powers are derived from.

Satan apparently, has corrupted powers given to Angels, and bestows them upon these False Prophets to decieve.

The life ever after is that we share God's presence, sharing like purposes, knowledge etc. Does it mean we sever our identity as well?

No. I made a mistake. To be with God 'before all worlds' is to be God himself.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Anacyreon:

Let's combine this statement with the first one. Who can be harmed by sin? Other people for sure. But what about God? One has to recognise that the primary person who is harmed by sin, is God.

Also, by the reverse. Other people cannot forgive us our sins, but God can. As the person we are in most debt to for our sins, he ought to be the one who can restore our credit.

Hi Ben

Sorry for the late reply, there's a time difference of 12 hours between the East Coast and Jakarta

The primary philosophy of Islam disagrees with this approach. God by definition is above coming to harm, as harm is an attribute of the created, it's not compatible with perfection of God. Similarly, he doesnt need our prayers or worship, or our good behaviour in life. He needs nothing and everyone and everything needs him. We do pray and try to be good people for our own sake, for our own trial.

We are speaking through different points of religious reference (which I appreciate ), so I don't know if what I say in this respect in response to what I think I understand from your mention of 'God being harmed by sin' was right in the first place.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
No. There are a couple of reasons for this. One could even look at an Andy Capp cartoon where Andy gives money to the vicar, and the vicar blesses him. After Andy leaves, the vicar notes to himself, but you would not like it in heaven.

That's the key. People who go to Hell, are those who would not enjoy heaven. Think about this for a minute. If you have lived your entire life, rejecting God, are you going to change your mind when you see him? Unlikely.

Well if you saw God, you'd have no other option of rejetcing his existence By 'seeing', of course, I don't mean the visual perception, rather a coming to an absolute awaress of him, as irrefutable as what we define on this world as 'seeing'.

Also, in the basic philosophy of Islam, heaven is not a place of hedonistic pleasure, despite the oft-repeated references to 12 virgins (or was it 70?) or rivers of wine. These (often exaggerated) references were meant to be figurations. Heaven is a state, of happiness and freedom from trouble, of balance and peace, of harmony, of being free of doubts. Therefore, it is not a matter of liking it that would put you there, but rather unpreparadness for it, as evidenced by one's bad behaviour in life.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Even if a person repents before God, what good is it to believe in what you see, and what is before you? It is too late. You have had ample opportunity here on Earth to confess your sins, and you have declined your opportunities.

We do not get a second chance, after the Second Coming. Once we die, we are either lost or saved, and there is nothing we can do about that.

It does not decline our free will to say that, because we have had the opportunities to repent before God.

I would agree with your first paragraph here, in the sense that you should have dealt with your 'bad sides' while in matter form, here on earth.

But then again, we are advised never to take for granted our heaven or hell, because the ultimate judgement belongs to God, the hope and fear should be in balance. Also, God's mercy is more than his wrath, and each individual is deemed capable of making the right decisions (or repentions, failing that) so as to deserve heaven.

So, from what I read from various posts in this forum, I believe there is a different approach to 'salvation' in Islam than the way it is accepted in Christianity. In the latter, Jesus as the saviour is the primary agent of salvation, if I didnt get it wrong Whereas in the former, salvation is assured through personal dedication to 'being good' as defined by scripture, through repention sincerely from the heart. That personal connection is valued highly

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Anacyreon:

No. God is sufficient. He is good, and he is uncreated. If good requires evil in order to be made sense of, then God could not be good, and the nature of God would have to be equally good and evil.

Suppose one were to look at a two deeds, knowing one was good and one was bad. Without some kind of moral guidance, or knowledge of the good, one would be unable to discern the difference between good and evil. You would be just as likely to call what is bad good, and what is good bad.

So not only is good sufficient, but it is a requirement in order to discern evil. In this sense, evil requires good to corrupt, while good can stand alone.

I would agree in general with this definition of good.

What I was meaning by putting good in contrast to evil, was to postulate from a non-religional philosophical definion that we are aware of 'good' only because of the existence of its opposite, 'bad', facilitates our discerning it.

In a universe where 'evil deeds' cannot be commited by the building blocs of the rules of that universe (if you acn imagine one such universe), we wouldnt be aware that 'good deeds' fall into a category of 'good', as we would never need to contrast it with anything else. It's like if we lived in subfreezing temperatures all our lives and never knew warmth in any form (through clothing, fire or in any other means for the sake of this crude analogy), we would not say 'it's damn cold'. But a one day experience of a summer day would make us define, 'oh hot like that day', or 'cold like usual'.

Therefore, our own potential to deviate from 'good' (our ability to 'choose'), is what makes a contrast between 'good' and 'bad' (lame joke: ...and the ugy ) sensible.

It's only a shade of difference from what you say, and probably not opposed to it. The catch here is, our ability to choose necessitates two concepts of good and evil to exist to choose from. At the same time, the consequent materialisation of 'evil' does not mean God would have to be equally good and evil.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
In giving us the ability to discern evil, through knowledge of the good, it also gives us the ability to choose evil over the good. Hence, in order to promote the good among beings with free will, one must risk the chance that they choose the evil over the good.

Satan is constrained by God. If you read Job, you see that this is the case. God gives Satan power over certain areas of Job's life in order to test Job. He is never the instrument of evil, any more than he may allow evil to occur.

I understand this perfectly, it actually conforms with what I believe on the issue

Having said all these, I must also say here I'm not a religious guy in general...I don't pray five times a day, I miss out on some of the other musts of religion, but I took a personal interest some time ago on the philosophical aspect of religion...So, threads on Christian topics and the atheist/agnostic scorn thereof are quite interesting for me to reflect back on my days of curiosity

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Elok
Er, angels are free to move between Earth and Heaven, but they are NOT omniscient, have shown no ability within scripture to transcend time and space entirely (which is IMO a facet of omniscience, not another attribute), and if capable of rebellion they must have some form of free will. Heaven and hell are not magical lands outside time. Transcending time is simply an aspect of God's own existence. He can voluntarily extend that "extratemporality," but it isn't intrinsic to His presence.

I've said this before, but it's a mistake to think of free will as a theological equivalent to the right to free speech. Free Will is simply human consciousness, without which we would not be humans at all.

If this is how Christianity defines angels and free will, I have to say it's in large part in conformity with that of Islam.

I even remember a verse in Quran saying to the effect that "one second for them [angels] is like a thousand years for you". I don't remember where in Quran but this also has the merit of fitting into the Theory of Relativity; as speed increases relative to a reference point, references of time start to differ between the 'mover' and the reference point.

[Berzerker]

The origin of this "competition" between God and Satan goes back to 2 traditions, one being the creation of "heaven" and Earth by the "gutting" of Ti-amat - the celestial dragon - by the sky deity with one part becoming a "hammered-out bracelet" located somewhere nearby the Earth and the other part becoming the Earth.

The second tradition also comes from the Sumerians (Abram/Abraham was a Sumerian) and their belief in 2 divine brothers who were competing for power on Earth, one (En.Lil) was the "sky" deity in charge of Mesopotamia and the other (En.Ki) was in charge of the "Absu" which can be translated as meaning Africa. The latter brother, symbolised by the Serpent, together with his wife or sister, created humans by combining the "blood" of the gods with an earthly creature. The sky deity took a couple of the more perfected "earthlings" to his domain but became angry at the proliferation of humans thru their procreation and his brother's help, i.e., the Serpent was responsible for creating humans who could procreate.

On an interesting sidenote, a Zulu "myth" about the olden times speaks of a war between the "apemen" and "the artifical ones" (humans). According to the Sumerian myth, the creature used to help create humans roamed the Absu (Africa).

[Berzerker]

Btw, angels are not as portrayed in modern symbolism. They aren't benevolent guardians of man. The wings merely symbolise their ability to fly much the same way a pilot earns his wings and they were usually in charge of slaughtering people whenever "God" had a tantrum.

[Ben Kenobi]

Anacyreon:

I'm not on the East Coast, but the West, your debating partners shifted Westward with the time difference.

Sorry for the late reply, there's a time difference of 12 hours between the East Coast and Jakarta

np. If I see the thread, I'll catch the points.

God by definition is above coming to harm, as harm is an attribute of the created, it's not compatible with perfection of God.

One clarification. God is not harmed, in the sense, that he is physically worse off by our sins. But God does grieve. It is just as he is able to love, so does he grieve over us.

Similarly, he doesnt need our prayers or worship, or our good behaviour in life. He needs nothing and everyone and everything needs him. We do pray and try to be good people for our own sake, for our own trial.

I agree. God is self-sufficient. He asks us to pray, not for his sake, but for ours. He genuinely wants to help us, but in his mercy, we must ask him for help.

We are not good people merely for our own sake, because it would be impossible for us to live up to the standards that God sets. We love God, and from that love, comes the desire to do his work, as best as we can. When we fall short, we are to confess our sins, so we will no longer be burdened by them.

I don't mean the visual perception, rather a coming to an absolute awaress of him, as irrefutable as what we define on this world as 'seeing'.

Why can no man look at God in his current state?

Therefore, it is not a matter of liking it that would put you there, but rather unpreparadness for it, as evidenced by one's bad behaviour in life.

But yet God can redeem our bad behaviour, for who in his life is pure?

It is not so much the unpreparedness, but rather the desires of the person. Why would he want to be close to someone in heaven for eternity whom he does not love?

Whereas in the former, salvation is assured through personal dedication to 'being good' as defined by scripture, through repention sincerely from the heart.

Yeah, that is a difference, for it is only through repentence, for Christians, that one can ever live a moral life, and even then, we need to confess our sins.

I have to say it's in large part in conformity with that of Islam.

From my knowledge of Islam, all Angels bear the will of God, and cannot have free will, in contrast with Djinns.