Hive call to Planetary Government for CPU-PEACE ceasefire! - Page 3

Maniac · March 4, 2004, 05:21

GeoModder, since you have a history of thinking to join the pirates and thus would be more likely accepted as their legitimate regional leader, and since you're in command of the military which has a strong presence in the PEACE region, I made you the democratic representative of PEACE in the Council. I hope you don't mind.

The idea is of course that we have right to the Pirate council seat, and that the remaining and fled Pirate elite in Crossbone Way doesn't represent the whole of PEACE. A bit like Communist China claiming the UN Security Council that Chang Kai Shek, who fled to Taiwan, held for some time after.

GeneralTacticus · March 4, 2004, 05:23

Somehow, I don't think that's going to be accepted unless we can persuade the existing Council members that our war is justified, and if we can do that, the necessity for having a vote in the first place vanishes.

Maniac · March 4, 2004, 05:27

Who cares if it is accepted? This is just their silly roleplay to justify what they want to do anyhow.

laurentius · March 4, 2004, 06:29

Should I post this:

"I'd like to point out that without Hives approval the whole war between PEACE and CyCon would never have started at all. It was with Hives support that we decided to go to war. And the Hive was never neutral in any way about this, nono. They PROVIDED US with infiltration information of PEACE for example. So they KNEW and APPROVED the current situation beforehand. Now the winds have turned I see, well all I can say is HIVE BETRAYS ONCE AGAIN. They dont seem very trustworthy. As a victim of this backstabbing I warn any ally of Hive to be very careful with them, because you could be the next they decieve.

kassad omicron-9, second function of CPU"

GeneralTacticus · March 4, 2004, 06:37

Looks fine to me.

MrWhereItsAt · March 4, 2004, 07:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Arnelos
If CyCon is proposing that the sovereignty of PEACE be transferred from the currently recognized government to a new government, such a proposal will need to pass a vote of this council before it becomes official. Until that time, the original government of PEACE will retain its council membership, its voting rights, and international recognition of its sovereign rights over its territory.

Ah, I see Arn has entered the fray...

Expect things to get more meticulous and logical, and thus more difficult to argue against.

May I reply with the following?

The flaw of official conclusions such as this is that they do not work in situations that are not the status quo. This same line of logic would lead to confirming the voting rights and sovereignty of a nation that does not exist - if there are enough factions that believe it to be the case or are willing to show that they do for their own ends, it must be the case. Certainly such an idea is completely irrational, and thus it appears we cannot trust implicitly in such reasoning without appealing to all the facts.

The fact is that PEACE was, and still is a threat (until such a time as they enter into negotiations with us by SOME means) to the peoples of the CPU, who wish only to strive for efficiency and safety. When such core principles are undermined for any faction are we all to submit to a vote from factions who do not necessarily hold those cores values to be self-evident?

Would the Hive submit to a vote by the other factions where its core principles were undermined and attacked? I should hope not. Why should any faction have to submit to the wills of those different to it, who cannot understand, no matter the vote count.

laurentius · March 4, 2004, 08:08

Sure, I'm eager to see arnelos starting the mud slingin ala civ3 DG

GeoModder · March 4, 2004, 11:30

How about this response to Kody already:

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
Firstly you already had the army ready to go before you were given the peace base information.

Both parties had an standing army before hostilities started. As is normal for factions.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
I no longer hold those views and apologise to the Peace for my actions.

Care to share why your views have changed?
I realize that you have no legitimaty anymore in this game, but as you just put it you did start the sequence who led to this situation.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
It was only after I left that I realised my serious mistake, but since I was already officially out of the Hive it was too late to made reparations to the Peace.

Your former faction members had always the possibility to make 'reparations' for those 'mistakes', yet appearantly choose not to do so. Also, you were always in a position to ask them to do so.

This last ditch attempt to stop this war is then a farce in one more way.

First the Hive leadership (under you, then) allows this war to happen, probably to weaken two factions who have still easy means to expand further. Then later recognizes too late the efficiency whereupon the CPU follows their course of action. And third, by getting payment in the form of technology, tries protecting PEACE and starts this farce in front of the Planetary Council.

And this as our answer to the council when all 5 legitimate factions (according to Tass) have posted their vote on the Hive motion.
But I still need work a bit on a fitting begin.

The reasons brought up by the Hive (humanitarian disaster, atrocities, etc...) are even more contemptious in light of the long standing war the Hive is performing versus the Data Angels. And before the Hive responses with "our war is a non-violent war" or the likes, our present information reveals that the Hive has plenty of military vessels in the vicinity of Angel territory, thus showing that the Hive itself does not shies back from the destruction of human lives, causing civilian casualties and breaking the sovereignity of independant factions/states/nations. Whether or not Hive was first to initiate that war, it appears that it still continues it with no restraint, and surely isn't keeping this a "defense" war till agreements can be reached with the opposing partie.

Does the Hive in this light cares to stand next to those they accuse?

As on the Hive appeal for a ceasefire:

CyCon, and later CPU, have brought forward unification proposal(s) to PEACE leadership. It is off course within the right of PEACE leadership to refuse those proposals, but by not sending out counter proposals to CPU, they show their disregard of a diplomatic solution in the face of an escalating war, having gone so far in their contemptious silence towards CPU that they even refuse to directly communicate with CPU, but are appealing through a member of the Planetary Council, and so bringing in danger the stability of the whole planetary society.

At any moment the last 7 MY, PEACE leadership could have asked a halting of hostilities, sparing their soldiers lives, and acknowledging their losses, but they refuse to do so.
Instead, their troop movements and 'burning ground' tactics at nearly conquered bases show a disregard for those staying behind and the remainder of population under their surveillance.

PEACE leadership may continue to moan as they see fit, but cannot deny the fact that they refuse to enter into negotiations with CPU and let former PEACE citizens suffer from lack of appropriate facilities by destroying those unnecessary.

laurentius · March 4, 2004, 11:37

guys wait up...im onto something.

Please dont post at that thread until further notice. Flame war could compromise possible solution to this at hand....

more soon

Drogue · March 4, 2004, 16:39

Sorry about my absence, have been offline. I know they seem to be voting, but can I post this:

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
the ruling and will of this Council

The council has not voted or ruled, and has no precident to do such. We have never ratified the UN Charter, and our acceptance is not part of being part of this council, since we cannot opt out of this council. As for your allegation that war is an atrocity, it is clearly not defined as such, since the game defines atrocities very specifically, as we have said all along. War is not illegal, the UN Charter is not our guiding doctrine, else the Peacekeepers mission to make it our doctrine would have already been accomplished, and thus this council has no legal basis for any kind of ruling on the matter.

I also find the irony of a faction that is so against democracy that their official newsletter states that democracy is wrong, a faction that runs a Police State form of government, is advocating a democratic way of enforcing their so called morals.

In short, we will happily enter into council supervised negotiations, providing you can get PEACE, the faction that has so far not agreed to such, to agree. However we will not call a ceasefire, as that would be illogical, allowing our military to soak up government funds when they are not being used.

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
I plead to the people of the CyCon on behalf of the People of the Human Hive to look at your leaders

The people have once against elected the CyCon government, which came into power a few days ago.

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
look at the atrocities they are committing in your name

We have not committed an atrocity, as we have continually said. The council and game defines atroicities specifically, and we haven't committed any.

Ladies and gentlemen of the council. The Hive had produced not a single shred of evidence for these so called atrocities they claim we have committed, and as you are well aware, atrocities are clearly defined, and war is not one of them. War is not illegal. The UN Charter is a piece of old earth legislation, and has never been ratified on Chiron. Brother Lal did try, in the begining, but his followers quickly disbanded.

CPU has broken no international law on Chiron, despite the wild allegations of the Human Hive. We are willing, as we have always been, to negotiate with PEACE. However hostilities will not cease until an agreement is reached.

********

And then say that this is not a council matter, since the CPU have the ability to decide what we do with our military forces, and there is nothing illegal about what we have done, that is in contravention of international law.

Maniac · March 4, 2004, 16:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
However we will not call a ceasefire, as that would be illogical, allowing our military to soak up government funds when they are not being used.

Though it is of course true, I wouldn't mention this. We would probably get lots of reactions that this comment shows that we intent to attack another faction as soon as PEACE is finished, and prove that CPU is aggressive.

As for the rest

GeoModder · March 4, 2004, 19:28

Quote:

Originally posted by laurentius
guys wait up...im onto something.

Please dont post at that thread until further notice. Flame war could compromise possible solution to this at hand....

more soon

Next time you better send an PM to all 'buddies', then you're sure the message is heard before they post anything damaging.

Drogue · March 4, 2004, 20:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Though it is of course true, I wouldn't mention this. We would probably get lots of reactions that this comment shows that we intent to attack another faction as soon as PEACE is finished, and prove that CPU is aggressive.

I think we need to address Voltaire's direct question, but I'll take out the bit about our military, just that we will not accept a ceasefire while talks go on.

MrWhereItsAt · March 4, 2004, 20:50

Sorry - I couldn't resist.

Voltaire was going off topic, so I called him on it and asked that, if he wants us to stay on topic, he should do so himself. Also, I noted that he refuses to acknowledge the union of CyCon and University. I called this, in effect, a slap in the face, and that I hope that this is his personal problem with the CPU and not a reflection of the Hive itself. Due to this clear problem with us, I asked that he either hide his illogical emotional responses or ask a less biased Hive member to take over.

Except in much more diplomatic language, natch.

Sorry guys, it just takes so long for someone to respond here, and when they do it is usually when I am at work or asleep. I want to contribute to this debate, not be shut out of it due to my timezone! Hopefully no-one has a problem with what I say. Already the last post I put up for approval here is out of date

Nubclear · March 4, 2004, 21:07

Hmm....Well, the motion to stop the CyCon-PEACE war must be voted on now.
The Hive has voted for it, and CPU has voted against.
The Drones and PEACE have not voted, though I'm sure it won't be that difficult to guess PEACEs vote

Drogue · March 4, 2004, 21:14

Have replied. Added bits as they came to me. Trying to show why the council isn't even allowed to be legitimate on this, which it isn't.

Skanky Burns · March 4, 2004, 22:52

Quote:

If war is illegal, the Hive in pursuing their Vendetta against the Angels would have broken it. If declaring war is illegal, then the Drones, in declaring Vendetta upon PUT, would have broken it before. However it is not illegal.

We should attack them on this part too. If we are forced to stop a war, then they too should stand trial over their wars. And since their war started before ours, they should stand trial first so as to set a precedent.

Drogue · March 5, 2004, 00:20

Ok. I have had a long and relatively fruitful chat with Voltaire over MSN, chaired by Tass. Basically we've reached an impass. The Hive is threatened but the CPU. They feel we upset the balance, of Drones, Hive and us, and feel that we're getting too powerful, especially if we finish of PEACE. They feel we are militaristic and wish to destroy the Hive. I tried to alay his fears, to some success, but many inside the Hive do not trust us. I pointed out for safety that resigning the pact would be sensible, and while received well, it won't get passed the rest of the Hive.

The Hive does care about PEACE, but to a limited extent. They care about us getting too powerful, and are prepared to go to any lengths to stop that. I pointed out that a war between the two of us would be long and draining, and that the Drones would gain a lot. That was accepted. The Hive wants a ceasefire and us to enter talks. I agreed to the talks, but said unless we were offered an agreement that benefited us, we couldn't agree to a ceasefire yet. This is the impass. The Hive will go to 'any lengths' to stop us completely killing PEACE. And we wont agree to a ceasefire without a reason. Hence, at the time, war seemed inevitable. I have a couple of things that might help. Suppose we offered to stop and let the Hive take their last base[s]? Or to split original PEACE territory (with us having the lions share of course)?

Voltaire also mentioned his concern about CPU attitudes to the Hive. I tried to alay those fears, as I am positive, but he didn't really buy it. He said a lot of this tension has come from Hive feelings that some CPU members are anti-Hive. This may be true, in fact, I'm pretty sure it is. He knows from Maniac's posts that he is not pro-Hive, and so is scared that with him being Prime Function we are likely to go to war against the Hive. I used his logical of showing why it would be illogical of us to do that, and that as Prime Function he cannot decide on his own, and that helped greatly.

In short the problem is thus:
If we take all of PEACEs bases, the Hive feels that we're too powerful, too militaristic, and is scared. War may well ensue. However we wish to exterminate PEACE, for in and out of game reasons, such a turntime and fun. This is the impass. One side has to give. Neither have yet, although we're coming closer to the middle.

The good news is, the Drones and Hive are not as stable as they once were. The Drones have not publicly supported the Hive motion, dispite the Hive trying to get them to. There is a chance to be kingmaker here. I talks of alliances to Voltaire. An alliance with the Hive, to alay all our fears and go co-op victory, he found interesting. It would be great, but a long shot. Maybe ask the Drones? We sign a Pact with them, and vote for their supreme leadership, hence a co-op? Either way, it's a chance. My personal opinion: War would not be good, but I will not support any course of action that leaves PEACE in place.

GeneralTacticus · March 5, 2004, 02:48

For those who don't already know: the motion has passed.

Mart · March 5, 2004, 03:34

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
For those who don't already know: the motion has passed.

so what are actual consequences of that?

GeneralTacticus · March 5, 2004, 03:37

Probably none; we had no friends in the other factions anyway, and our enemies aren't going to be made more so as a result.

Nubclear · March 5, 2004, 04:05

Quote:

Originally posted by mart7x5
so what are actual consequences of that?

Well, members of the council will be able to claim that any action taken against CyCon to enforce this motion will be backed by the council.

I think I pulled that off quite well

GeoModder · March 5, 2004, 09:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Well, members of the council will be able to claim that any action taken against CyCon to enforce this motion will be backed by the council.

I think I pulled that off quite well

Tass, I have a question here. IF CPU takes PEACE out of the game, what happens then to that PEACE vote?

I mean, in your ruling now about the legitimacy of the council, they have a vote, but if we destroy them, is their council vote then still valid for future council votings like this ceasefire topic which recently came up?

GeoModder · March 5, 2004, 10:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
I tried to alay his fears, to some success, but many inside the Hive do not trust us. I pointed out for safety that resigning the pact would be sensible, and while received well, it won't get passed the rest of the Hive.

Yes, that shows if they were willing to end our pact a few years ago. But about your last sentence, did you sugggest a pact breaking between Hive-Drones?

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
I have a couple of things that might help. Suppose we offered to stop and let the Hive take their last base[s]? Or to split original PEACE territory (with us having the lions share of course)?

I'm in favour of the latter proposal. Since most of our members want PEACE finished, I think it's better that we do the job (Hive taking PEACE's last bases would do harm to their diplo rating anyway). But we can propose that they get Yard... Long island for colonisation, and that we disband all bases in the vicinity (Calico and Crossbone). With disband I mean that we quickbuild a colony -and seacolonypod in those two bases just before they grow to 2 citizens. If that is not enough for them, I propose to give them control over 1 or 2 colony pods when Hive founds a base on Yard... Long island.

Btw, I write this in the presumption that bases can't be transfered to other human players in a MP game.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Voltaire also mentioned his concern about CPU attitudes to the Hive. I tried to alay those fears, as I am positive, but he didn't really buy it. He said a lot of this tension has come from Hive feelings that some CPU members are anti-Hive. This may be true, in fact, I'm pretty sure it is.

The voting about whether or not going to war with Hive was with a big majority in favour of not doing so. I like to think that sets the trend within our faction.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
The good news is, the Drones and Hive are not as stable as they once were. The Drones have not publicly supported the Hive motion, dispite the Hive trying to get them to. There is a chance to be kingmaker here.

Either way, it is us agreeing with the prime position of one of those factions, and it means a long and dreadfull war against at least 1 AI faction and 1 human faction. Not to mention that in each case we have to take the brunt of it because of our distance from the AI factions.

I can't see Angels agreeing to supreme leader victory of Hive, and Believers to the same for Drones.

MrWhereItsAt · March 5, 2004, 11:03

Finally! Some real diplomacy instead of just public postings! If you think it will help the Hive;s overall feeling of us, Drogue, I could contact the Hive and generally banter in a positive aspect. I have been on good terms with HongHu before, and I daresay some of the other Hive members. I think I'm quite likeable too.

Either of those proposals sounds good. If it is just Hive jitters, we must do whatever we can to reassure them (the Drones too!) that we are not aggressive towards them, but I still say PEACE must die, whether by our hand or not.

If necessary, I volunteer to be special emissary to the Drones to try to find out what their problem is and how we can avoid conflict with them too (I daresay they are just nervous like the Hive is). I did attempt to join the Drones once, but decided against it when I found out they were based off-Poly.

No, bases can't be traded at the FAM screen in SMAC(X)

Nubclear · March 5, 2004, 14:45

Quote:

Tass, I have a question here. IF CPU takes PEACE out of the game, what happens then to that PEACE vote?

No, the PEACE vote would be invalidated.

UnOrthOdOx · March 5, 2004, 15:50

Yes. Send WIA to the Drones!

MrWhereItsAt · March 5, 2004, 20:21

What's going on? Rereading the (now edited) thread that Hive former turn player HongHu posted in the main forum, it seems that there are several Hive citizens posting strongly against any conflict with us. Also, they affirm that CPU has in fact done nothing towards the Hive. I really think that, should the push for the Council vote get ugly again, we can use that to show how out of touch their leaders like Voltaire and HongHu are - these are Hive citizens holding a completely opposite stance, and clearly unhappy with their leaders' attitudes towards us!

Speaking of the motion, what is happening now? Is there a ceasefire, are we obliterating PEACE? Is it time to work on the Hive and Drones to try to get them to agree to PEACE dying, even if what's left of them needs to be partitioned up? We could even give up a strategic base to each of the Hive and Drones, in the interests of promoting closer exchanges between the three of us, and show them that we just wanted PEACE gone, and their territory was not the real issue.

Instructions and updates please!

Nubclear · March 5, 2004, 20:22

Until such time when Voltaire is disposed, Voltaire will be the official leader of the Hive.

MrWhereItsAt · March 5, 2004, 20:38

Can't you make him choke on the fruits of the Hive workers' labours?