Hive call to Planetary Government for CPU-PEACE ceasefire!

[Nubclear]

Perhaps I should, because he refuses to worship his god.

Perhaps I'll kill everyone who refuses to worship me....MWIA....

[laurentius]

/me chokes on the fruits of CyConian labour!

[GeoModder]

And good labour it is!!! Lauri already writes bleu!!!

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


No, the PEACE vote would be invalidated.

Invalidated for FUTURE council rulings, that is.
Not retroactively

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Invalidated for FUTURE council rulings, that is.
Not retroactively

Damn, almost thought I had a usefull godly precedent here...

You have outsmarted me, Tass. This time...

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Perhaps I should, because he refuses to worship his god.

Perhaps I'll kill everyone who refuses to worship me....MWIA....

WIA ain't got no problem with Tass... why should Tass have a problem with WIA?

WIA could be deliberately opposing you, but WIA isn't. WIA thinks that should be worth SOME consideration. Also, WIA has never bad-mouthed Tass, unlike certain others...

[DeathByTheSword]

ok to recap....we need to start talk with PEACE and probably the HIVE sitting in about peace... this means no attacks on PEACE units for now...but i would like to suggest not giving away ANY BASES or MONEY or TECHS to PEACE to creat peace...a de-militarized zone is handy and a max-cap on PEACE bases are needed to secure safety of CPU bases...that is what i think needs to come out of the peace talks

[Maniac]

How about sending this full message to the Hive, and the eight points to PEACE? Anything else I should add? Point 6 is to prevent they can easily launch fusion planet busters or air raids against us. Since the Hive has the CBA and they'll probably have planet busters earlier than us, this is rather important.

---

Greetings Chairman Voltaire, Ambassador Jamski and Former Operator t_ras,

Despite what I assumed after Octavian X posted his Planetary Council thread, it seems that the Hive would not yet have decided whether or not to declare war with CPU, and thus that diplomacy isn't yet pointless. Therefore I would like to react on a chat Voltaire had with Drogue, of which Drogue posted a summary in our private forum.

To begin with, apparently Voltaire feels the CPU upsets the balance between Hive, Drones and us, that you feel threatened and that CPU wishes to destroy the Hive. I would ask why you think so? At first, what can be more balanced than three factions of roughly equal power? Second, this year the Drones have become more powerful than the Hive and probably CPU, thus technically you should feel more threatened by them. Third, despite asking numerous times, I still haven't received a reply as to why some Hiveans think CPU has aggressive intentions towards the Hive and would want to destroy you. I'd say it's the opposite: we have the impression the Hive wants to destroy us at all costs, while we just want live in peace and safety now our archenemy PEACE can no longer threaten us.

Another point Voltaire mentioned is that a lot of this tension would have come from Hive feelings that some CPU members are anti-Hive, and that Voltaire thinks I am not pro-Hive, and so is scared that with me being Prime Function CPU is likely to go to war against the Hive.
First, if you think some CPU members are anti-Hive due to the 3D roleplay, I'd say it's just that: roleplay. Also a lot of that roleplay is not the consequence of CPU members supposedly wanting to attack the Hive (as our poll this year on whether or not to declare war on you shows), but instead of the Hive breaking pact and all your other anti-CPU actions.
Second, I'm not per definition pro or anti any faction. I just pragmatically judge who is willing to cooperate with us and base my opinion on that. So how do you expect me to think about the Hive if I offer a Hive-PUT pact, tech trades and ask what caused the bad Hive-CC relations lately, and the reply I get is a severance of the Hive-CC pact and Hive cooperation with our enemies? I'm perfectly willing to cooperate as much as you want with the Hive, but the initiative lies in your court: we have made repeated attempts to cooperate; it's the Hive that keeps refusing.

Anyway, I suggest we move to the issue of PEACE. Below is my proposal. The main line of this proposal is CPU security and safety.

1> We have the ability to eliminate PEACE. But we are willing to allow PEACE to survive, as long as they aren't in our immediate vicinity. Our security concept can't allow a hostile faction remaining in our immediate vicinity. I guess the Hive destroying all Angel defences in Conshelf 57 and the remaining PEACE ship taking that base is the best possibility.

2> Crossbone Way comes under CPU control or is deconstructed voluntarily by PEACE.
Just like you can't tolerate a CPU base on that island near the Hive mainland, we can't tolerate a PEACE base in the middle of our sphere of influence.

3> CPU, Hive and PEACE should agree to the sphere of influence I proposed in the Council thread:

(32.46), (34.40), (36.38), (42.38), (43.37) and the two islands between those coordinates become a demilitarized zone.
Everything northwest of that is Hive/PEACE territory, and everything southeast of that is CPU territory.
Any unit of any faction which trespasses the DMZ or enters the territory of the other faction, is considered in violation of the treaty and may be destroyed.

4> We will retreat that colony pod from the DMZ island mentioned above as soon as possible, and not found a base there.

5> Hive and PEACE should withdraw their units as soon as possible from our sphere of influence as described under point 3.

6> No new CPU/Hive/PEACE bases can be founded within 16 squares of an existing CPU/Hive/PEACE base. Nor can any Angel base be captured by CPU, Hive or PEACE (besides one base to let PEACE survive). This is to keep a buffer faction between us.

7> The Hive should show signs to be more willing again to cooperate with CPU, meaning for example a re-signing of our pact (the best way to ensure no one has hostile intentions towards each other) or a trade of technologies. That way we have a reason not to give in to the requests of the Angels to declare war on you.

8> If PEACE survives, the main advantage you get is a free vote in the Planetary Council. We would like assurances you won't abuse that. Therefore we propose a CPU veto right on all Council motions except all the official in-game ones. This is to prevent you can propose any motion in the out-of-game Council you want, and CPU being outvoted 3 to 2 every time. I would propose a similar veto right for the Hive and Drones to make things equal.

If your intention is not to destroy CPU, but really only is your own security, this seems to me a good deal for the Hive. So I hope you will see the rationality in it and accept it.

Friendly greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
Representative for the CPU

[DeathByTheSword]

well they wont take all of this...and i really dont think they will take number 8 because we already have 2 votes and then they hive and peace will have 2 too...with each time the drones as tiebreaker...again...i would subtle change the wording so that it sounds more like a offer that can be talked about then an order.

EDIT: read my proposol in the public forum of 2 people of each involved faction to sit down and discuss terms

[laurentius]

Looks ok to me, maniac.

[GeoModder]

For point 6, I would add that they can't conquer Angel landbases as well within that distance. In essence letting the Angels exist as a buffer faction on the western borders. But this also means we do not do so, effectively limiting our 'warmongering' to the Believers.

[Maniac]

Ok I sent it, with some word changes to make it sound more like a proposal.

[Maniac]

Just read Geo's comment. Should I cancel the PM and edit it to include Geo's comment?
The reason I left out the Angels though is exactly to still leave open the option for us to assimilate them.

[GeoModder]

If Hive feel threatened by our presence even if we don't are that close to them, what do you think their reaction would be if we assimilate the Angels' Monsoon bases. We're well within missile range then. Keeping it as a buffer seems the best solution to me for now, and it hinders Hive expansion a great deal as well, whereas we still can expand if we wish.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
we are willing to allow PEACE to survive, as long as they aren't in our immediate vicinity.

Really? I would be against this. I would rather let the Hive conquer the last bases. Sure, it's personal, but I want to see the PEACE government in our prison. I would have asked for a poll on such a biug decision. I would also have worded point 8 differently, starting by saying that CyCon, Drones and Hive should have a veto on all out of game council decisions (I'd rather see no out of game council decisions, but RP being what is is...), as opposed to sasying we should, and throwing that in at the end.

However I can live with it as is.

[MrWhereItsAt]

I would agree with Drogue - ideally I want to see PEACE gone (matters not who takes what remains of them), as that is what I voted for in the poll. However, if the Hive and Drones want none of it, I would tolerate their survival, on the strict proviso that, if they threatened CPU again, we obliterate them and remove their ability to destabilise the political climate of Planet forever more.

[Maniac]

GeoModder:

Ok I've sent them a modified version of point 6 with the proposal not to attack the Angels included.

Drogue:

Really? I would be against this. I would rather let the Hive conquer the last bases.

They currently have only base left, so that one would have to be obliterated anyway. Who destroys it wouldn't make a difference in game terms (besides that the Hive would have to move a strong force right through our sphere of influence to destroy that base ).

Sure, it's personal, but I want to see the PEACE government in our prison.

Me too, however I fear that might not be possible. Probably the turn before we would eliminate them, PEACE would unify with the Hive, allowing the pirates to remain in the game even if their original faction is destroyed. And even if that doesn't happen, due to PEACE unwillingness to complete that discussion, there still isn't clarity on what happens to members of defeated factions: Are they thrown out of the game, or can they rejoin any faction they want? And reviving that discussion now would of course be a signal we want to eliminate PEACE completely after all, and turn Hive public opinion against us once more.

MrWhereItsAt:

I would agree with Drogue - ideally I want to see PEACE gone

Just like about everyone as that poll a while back showed, me too. However also like everyone as the other poll showed, I'd like to prevent war with the Hive if reasonably possible. So we have to weigh what of the two is most important to us.

Personally if we could eliminate PEACE without taking any unit losses, I'd be in favour, even if it meant war with the Hive. However if, like HongHu suggested in the "PEACE urgent message" thread before editing it away, the Hive helps PEACE capture an Angel base like Conshelf 57, to capture that base our forces would have to move for three turns through an area vulnerable for Hive air attacks. We could probably destroy the PEACE base, but none of our units would make it back alive. That isn't worth it IMHO.

I've sent FlameFlash a PM though to ask if Makahlua moved the PEACE ship out of our sphere of influence and towards the Angel sea base. If they have, I'd suggest to let PEACE indeed live. If they haven't, they are most likely unable to capture another base before we can take out Crossbone Way. Then I'd suggest to put the Hive before a fait accompli and eliminate PEACE after all, with the reason that they have broken the sphere of influence treaty we proposed.

I agree to a new poll, but I'd suggest to wait until we have an answer from FlameFlash.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Indeed, Maniac, circumstances have changed a lot since we voted in that poll. I think I would revise my vote to mean that I voted to see PEACE no longer a threat to CPU, whether they survived or not. Staying friends, or at least TRYING to be friends with the Hive and Drones is more important.... right now.

[Archaic]

There is a problem with that. Namely......PEACE surviving gives them an important vote on the council. The other teams know about our vulnerability to having the sea levels rise, correct? Care to make a guess just what they might do, being able to have 3 votes for it against our 1, before including AI?

We need not be friends with the Hive and the Drones. We need only manipulate them into turning on each other. I say......it's time for us to start forging notes for each team, supposedly from the other team to us, and play them off against each other. Surely they must be somewhat suspicious of each other's growing power at this point?

[GeneralTacticus]

Well, actually, we have two... and I rather doubt the AI would vote in favour, at least without some serious bribery. Besides, what makes the Hive and Drones any less vulnerable than us?

[MrWhereItsAt]

I haven't seen the map for ages, but IIRC someone posted that the Hive was on higher elevation land. We're on lowlands, 'marsh', I think someone said.

Yes, ideally I would like to see PEACE's vote gone, but again, I think winning back the Hive's (and myabe Drones') confidence is way more important, whilst possible.

[Archaic]

I still believe however that the way to win back their confidence is to play both sides against each other. Without being too obvious about it of course.

Does anyone know what the Drones elevation levels are? If they're similar to ours, then making them think the Hive intends to sink land through industrial might and the council (It's not *that* hard to manipulate the AI, trust me), then that may just create the wedge between them that we need.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Archaic
I still believe however that the way to win back their confidence is to play both sides against each other. Without being too obvious about it of course.

Does anyone know what the Drones elevation levels are? If they're similar to ours, then making them think the Hive intends to sink land through industrial might and the council (It's not *that* hard to manipulate the AI, trust me), then that may just create the wedge between them that we need.

Check my map (will be updated soon). Drones have some elevations which compose near 40 percent of their alleged teritory, I suspect. Hive is mostly on heigths and cant be affected with sea levels in near future. I think Drones are as vulnerable to sinking as we are, perhaps even a bit more.

[Drogue]

Maniac: Even if they post a unification, as is the case with PUT, you can declare vendetta against PUT without declaring against the CyCon, even though we treat it as one. We could just take it and make them destroy it, since they cannot gift it or allow the Hive to capture it. Either way, we could pursue our vendetta and destroy that base, and then there would be no more PEACE, and the Hive would have a choice of a vendetta alone (the Drones wouldn't join without something to gain, IMHO) or peace without PEACE being there. And thats if they unify.

As for the defeated faction members, I thought we decided that they could join another faction after a time specified by Tass (either 3 or 5 weeks, IIRC) or join the conquering faction immediately. Tass, can you clarify, and poll if needs be?

[Maniac]

Archaic: I like the idea of playing the Hive and Drones out against each other, but how to do that in concreto? Buster hardly responds to any message we send to him: in the past we've offered him a pact and tech cooperation offers. He doesn't even say "no" to those offers; he simply ignores them and doesn't reply. I get the impression every message we send to him simply falls on deaf man's ears, so I'm a little pessimistic if any attempts to make buster dance to our will could ever succeed.

Also sending forged notes to them is a rather risky strategy, especially since we still don't know the exact relation between the Hive & Drones. Such a forging strategy is IMHO bound to come out sooner or later, and then they'll trust us even less than before.

Drogue:

The PEACE in-game faction would be destroyed, but wouldn't the ex-PEACE members be able to continue as Hive members if they unified before PEACE destruction? I assumed it was the PEACE members you wanted out of the game, and not simply the in-game faction. Was I wrong?

[Drogue]

Well, mostly wrong. I'd rather they couldn't join another faction, but destroying PEACE in game is my objective.

[GeoModder]

Well, in case that the remaining PEACE ships must be pursued, there are only 3 locations where the PEACE schooner can go next turn without being visible for us.
If we use the mindcontrolled cp as a scout, he covers the western part of his isle and the surrounding sea, checking if the schooner is there. If not, then 2 cruisers can go in the straits between the isle and Angel territory, and just shoot at those remaining tiles which are a possible location. The tricky thing here is that we have only 2 shots and 3 tiles to cover, thus the schooner has 33% chance to escape pursuit.

Something nasty for PEACE The closest Angel base to Conshelf 57, the one Hive will likely try to open up for PEACE, is constructing an Impact Cruiser... (finished in 3 turns). Imagine the Angels destroying PEACE

And that brings me to another question: If a human player defeats another human player, the last base must be transmitted, or else the game crashes, right?
But what happens then if an AI destroys a human player in a PBEM? Also a crash?

[Archaic]

Drones are potentially more vulnerable? Excellent. If we could only get a complete map of their territory.....oh well, this will have to do. We already have PEACE's map I assume? Do we have the Angel or Believer maps? It's possible they may know more.

In concerto might be difficult, yes, since they could very easily put two and two together. It might not necessarily be impossible however. In any case, we can certainly throw one of them off. I believe the Drones are probably the easiest to sway. They have the least members who are familiar with my diplomacy style (In fact, probably none, unless Darsnan's playing with them), and we've got a perfectly believeable situation to feed to them (The sinking). If it falls on deaf mans ears coming from you.....well......maybe I can do something about that. If the communication comes from me, and is made on the CivGaming forums rather than here, I don't even need to forge a communication from the Hive, at least initially. Forging things later might be a bit difficult, or at least time consuming though, but I suppose that'd be the case regardless, if I'm going to go and force an entire forum topic. In any case, it wouldn't necessarily be that hard to present to him the idea of me pulling a double cross on you people in spite for what you've done with "my" faction, and give him the details of this supposed secret Hive/CPU.

As for ramifications.....really, it's not like we have anything to lose at this point, and you can all blame it on me later to save your PBEM reputations if need be.

[Maniac]

Archaic, is your plan perhaps to tell the Drones that the Hive (with highlands) and CPU (with CyCon having MCC) intend to raise water levels, and that you strongly oppose that as it would submerge many PUT lands?

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Drogue
Well, mostly wrong. I'd rather they couldn't join another faction, but destroying PEACE in game is my objective.

Is a new poll necessary?
As I said before, the next 2 turns is our only chance to do this easily.
Ok, under the assumption then that in case the 'peace-talks' will fail, I prepare some MAF orders for a continual of the pursuit.

Any news on that front, Drogue? Have those talks with PEACE already started, or are you just stalling them?