The War Debate - Persia or Spain?

Paddy · March 1, 2004, 01:56

Should we attack Persia or is Spain the better target?

This debate has been seen on a few threads and now has a focal point.

So lets us debate this and get our thoughts onto the thread so that we can come to a concensus...

and please remember Egypt is watching all, and has cities all around us.

Paddy · March 1, 2004, 06:41

hmm, had thought that major Rasputin would be here by now

theViking · March 1, 2004, 07:05

We have probably the 3 largest nations around us,
Egypt with a total city size of 100, Persia with 92 and Spain with 91 while we have 57, of the nations we have not met yet there seems to be 5 with less population than us the rest of same size or larger.
Currently both Egypt and Persia have Knights and it will be a waste of good Vikings to try to fight them with sword. The best scenario I can see is to wait until we get Berserker and then do a sea attack on Spain’s many costal cities, the problem is that we will need to buy techs from the 3 big nations to get Berserker quick enough.

ormuzd · March 1, 2004, 08:02

I suggest we make some espionage of the persian colonies near us. I guess they are defended with only one or two spearmen. We should be able to take them quickly. After this we will wait for their knights and destroy them with swordsmen and archers until we make peace with them. Hopefully we will get the needed technologies for free.
After this we can launch an attack against Spain with berserkers and pikemen.

theViking · March 1, 2004, 16:31

Quote:

Originally posted by ormuzd
I guess they are defended with only one or two spearmen. We should be able to take them quickly. .

They have pikemen.

Jonny · March 1, 2004, 18:50

Quote:

Originally posted by theViking

They have pikemen.

Not in the cities we're planning to attack first. We haven't seen them move any pikemen into the target cities, and these cities don't have harbors connecting them to the Persian mainland, so they can rush-buy them after our DoW.

Why we must attack the Persians:

The Persians control cities on our home island. These must be taken from them to secure our home island and prevent the Persians from having a staging area for a land attack against us. After all, the AI is much more competent at land invasions than sea invasions.
We should take out the Persian island cities before they build Harbors and thus build Knights, Pikemen, and such.
We've already spent much time positioning our troops on the Persian border; if we spend more time repositioning them, we'll be even further behind!

ChrisiusMaximus · March 1, 2004, 18:55

Ive taken a look at the last save and Oops!!

Sorry first off let me say Im new to this here demo game, and I obviously need to get up to speed with how everything works etc.

Please bear with me if I seem abrupt I do not mean to. To me after studying the last save from your most recent turnchat it is clear that the Vikings are behind!

The debate here is who to attack next, Spain or Persia! I would have said Persia without doubt, as they have cities on what is in reality your land. Sorry our land, got to remeber Im a Viking too

if youll have me that is

I even have some startegies that I think would work well for an assault on mainland Persia, But!! there is a very juicy target sitting very close to our lands. Madrid!! and the Great Lighthouse!!

I believe that if alliances can be arranged at the optimun moment! we could with enough force, storm Madrid and capture this prize, and from the map it seems it would be quite possible to defend.

Their cities are sprawled out on some very stringy landforms with plenty of 1 tile links. Their culture is far lower than Persia or Egypt, thus far less risk of flips. But dont forget that if you nick there capitol there culture will take a right big knock, making them even more susceptable to the Viking doctrine

I may be wrong as I have not scrutinised the save with a fine tooth comb but of the three civs you have contact with Spain are the weaker neighbours and ripe for the picking.

Let Persia wait until you are more powerful, and until you have your beserkers on line. Which is some way off.

If we can grab The Lighthouse then a couple of explorers should set out to find more civs to trade with and hopefully aquire some more techs, or alternatively open embassies and steal the tech instead

Of course this requires cash and to get more cash we need more cities, Spanish cities

from the top 5 cities screen and the wonders screen it looks as though some of the as yet undiscovered civs are even more developed than your imediate neighbours, so the chances of finding a weaker chicken to pluck than Spain are quite remote, and they are right next door!!

Duddha · March 1, 2004, 20:32

Reasons to attack Persia

1. We've fought them before. The computer hold grudges.

2. They hold colonies on our continent and islands we lay claim to.

3. Our advisers say their armies are roughly equal to ours. I don't think this takes into account the tech gap.

4. We Hate them.

5. They are baby eaters.

6. We want their land.

7. Our troops are already deployed near their border, ready to strike.

Reasons to Attack Spain:

1. They are not Persia.

Hot Mustard · March 1, 2004, 22:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Duddha
5. They are baby eaters.

And you're not?

Duddha · March 2, 2004, 00:05

I have only advocated baby eating in the defense of this nation.

Paddy · March 2, 2004, 00:09

You are a diplomat Duddha

BigFree · March 2, 2004, 03:56

Persia or BUST!

But we must take out a huge part of Spain before they get to their UU. They wont harm us much on their own lands, but to see those 6 move Conquiestadors (sp?) on our island would be terrible.

MrWhereItsAt · March 2, 2004, 05:04

Welcome Chrisius! Thanks for the post, you've just saved me posting all my reasons why I thought Spain should be our first target. I had this opinion last I saw the game, when I was President back in term II (or was it III, or both?), so I am not fully up to date.

However, something no-one has touched upon - the Persians have Immortals! Nasty, evil, spiky Immortals! They will have their GA too, inevitably. Although Persia is the closest and likeliest target, they will be the hardest too. Spain may be the easier of the three (no UU, no GA), but just a little further off. Keep these things in mind. I cannot say further until I get home to NZ and can check the save (17 hours to go!)

Paddy · March 2, 2004, 08:22

Persia or Spain...

Yes we have troops stationed around the two Persian cities on our 'Homelands.'

The SMC has stated his desire that we have 15 to 20 Spearmen before we start war. So we are several turns from kick of date.

We do know that the Persians have Immortals, Knights and Pikemen. Against these we have Swordsmen.

Immortals are 4-2-1
Knights are 4-3-2
Pikes are 1-3-1

Swordsmen are 3-2-1

I do not want to be squimish, yet the stats show that our Swordsmen will have to work very hard against such troops.

The following pic shows our current armed forces...

It must also be noted that next turn we get the technology of Monarchy...

Paddy · March 2, 2004, 08:26

Here is a pic of the Persian Cities on our Homeland Isle.

There is a Pikeman now stationed in Sidon. This is only a very recent development.

Paddy · March 2, 2004, 08:50

In the last few turns Persia's Culture has grown and our troops were automatically moved back from the Persian territory.

Just thought you should be aware of this for the troops outside of Sardis.

Jonny · March 2, 2004, 09:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
The SMC has stated his desire that we have 15 to 20 Spearmen before we start war.

Actually... I'm pretty sure I said 15-20 swordsmen, not spearman. We need to start war soon, especially considering that the Persians are taking advantage of our trade network to upgrade units in Sidon.

Hopefully, it will be no later than this weekend.

Paddy · March 2, 2004, 09:02

ahh my error, thanks

well we have plenty of Swordsmen for your requirements then

ormuzd · March 2, 2004, 12:47

let attack persia as fast as possible.
We should take their cities in one blow and after this destroy the landing troops. Our sowrdsmen should be enough to keep the shores clear without leaving persians troops to attack us.

Paddy · March 2, 2004, 18:10

Are you talking of cities on the mainland? or just the ones on our homelands?

Rasputin · March 2, 2004, 20:29

strike persia hard and fast clear our homeland ...

Vikings ride to glory ....!!!!!

Paddy · March 2, 2004, 20:37

Which Cities do we take???

Sidon and Sardis are on our home island.

We have a mass of troops out side Sidon.

We have four Swordsmen outside Sardis.

Do we attack Tyre? small island

Do we attack Samaria? another small island

or do we go for the main land???

as an example we could land two main forces here and here...

Rasputin · March 2, 2004, 20:51

my goals are to clear our home land.. get those cirtys first the offer peace whilst we look for our next target...

Paddy · March 2, 2004, 21:00

yes well while at WAR with them, why not pick up one or two of these size able cities...

Rasputin · March 2, 2004, 21:18

dont want to spread our army too thin, prefer targeting one section at a time

Paddy · March 2, 2004, 21:36

ahh but we have have:
27 Swords
4 warriors about to be upgraded to swords
with more warriors on the way
10 archers
2 catapults, with another almost finished
5 galleys, with two more on the way
and 13 Spearmen, with more on the way

how many do you think are need to take Sidon, we have it surrounded at this time with most of the Swords and the catapults... way over kill I feel, but they needed to be stationed somewhere.

how many do you think are need to take Sardis, we have 4 Swordsmen there now, with a swordsman and an Archer on board 'The Big Free' which is sitting in the waters nearby.

So if we were to commit 4 swords to each of these towns we still have 19 left.

with all of our galleys at the jump of points we could only move 14 units for the first wave at this time.

The invasion could be of mixed units, and with 7 galleys we could have a strong second wave within two turns.

we could even be cautious and attack Sidon and Sardis with 6 units each...

That allows us 15 units for the first wave for an attack on the Persian mainland.

Paddy · March 2, 2004, 22:53

A good point of atacking Spain is that Madrid has The Great Lighthouse....

which really should be in our control afterall.

Madrid stands rady to be taken and held.

It is right within our Sphere of control anyway.

We could easily land two forces either side of Madrid.

Battle Force Gold. To the North of the city, Blockades the approaches to the city so that no relief troops can get through.

Battle Force Blue. To the south of the city is the attacking force.....

Paddy · March 2, 2004, 23:02

Just another option on the proposed Persian War

If we are looking to only attack one city on the mainland of Persia, then Tarsus may be a good starting point... maybe...

points:

- it shares a border with the Egytians thus sandwiched...

- it is close to Thor's Hammer for support

as mentioned I have only added this as another option.

My personal preferences that if we attack the Persians then we need to take out Gordium. I would also hope that we could also take out either Susa or Bactra.

Moonbars · March 3, 2004, 09:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot

My personal preferences that if we attack the Persians then we need to take out Gordium. I would also hope that we could also take out either Susa or Bactra.

If we take any persian mainland cities, we need to burn them. They will culture flip back very quickly.. and we cannot risk stationing a huge force in them while we build culture in case they flip anyway and we lose the army..

I favour attacking BOTH persia and spain. Take Madrid to speed our exploring, and take the persian cities in our heartland ASAP.

Paddy · March 3, 2004, 09:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Moonbars

If we take any persian mainland cities, we need to burn them. They will culture flip back very quickly.. and we cannot risk stationing a huge force in them while we build culture in case they flip anyway and we lose the army..

I favour attacking BOTH persia and spain. Take Madrid to speed our exploring, and take the persian cities in our heartland ASAP.

Yes, I do like the idea of leaving their cities in ruins

A strike against madrid, yes... preach it !!!