Thread Tools
Old March 1, 2004, 21:54   #1
Oncle Boris
Mac
Emperor
 
Oncle Boris's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Directly from the FART international airport
Posts: 3,045
Why are we so illiterate about Art?
Yes, this is the only conclusion I can come to.

There are plenty of intelligent persons on Apolyton, who can debate politics, history, economics, science and philosophy in a competent way.

Why is it that everyone is so illiterate when it comes to Art? The trend is generalized: only a fraction of usually intelligent people have something intelligent to say about Art. Could it be that art is not considered seriously? Why is it that an intelligent person would accept that art is here to manipulate emotions, and that's it?

Discuss.
__________________
"Now you're gonna ask me, is it an enforcer's job to drop the gloves against the other team's best player? Well sure no, but you've gotta know, these guys, they don't think like you and me." (Jol Bouchard, commenting on the Gaborik-Carcillo incident).
Oncle Boris is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 21:55   #2
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
Because art is homo-gay?
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 21:56   #3
Nubclear
NationStatesCall to Power II Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamRise of Nations MultiplayerACDG The Human HiveNever Ending StoriesACDG The Free DronesACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessGalCiv Apolyton EmpireACDG3 SpartansC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameDiplomacyAlpha Centauri PBEMCivilization IV PBEMAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG Peace
PolyCast Thread Necromancer
 
Nubclear's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: We are all Asher now.
Posts: 1,437
Quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Because art is homo-gay?
Nubclear is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 21:57   #4
mrmitchell
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG RoleplayCall to Power Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamNationStatesPtWDG2 Tabemono
King
 
mrmitchell's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,394
Art cannot be measured.
__________________
meet the new boss, same as the old boss
mrmitchell is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 21:58   #5
BeBro
Emperor
 
BeBro's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,278
Does the "we" include yourself, or are you, Boris, the only guy at Poly who's not illiterate in this matter?
__________________
Banana
BeBro is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:00   #6
Oncle Boris
Mac
Emperor
 
Oncle Boris's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Directly from the FART international airport
Posts: 3,045
Quote:
Originally posted by mrmitchell
Art cannot be measured.
Well, the point of 'measuring' art (in a metaphoric sense) is to put aside your personal preferences when judging it.
__________________
"Now you're gonna ask me, is it an enforcer's job to drop the gloves against the other team's best player? Well sure no, but you've gotta know, these guys, they don't think like you and me." (Jol Bouchard, commenting on the Gaborik-Carcillo incident).
Oncle Boris is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:00   #7
monolith94
Mac
Emperor
 
monolith94's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: New England
Posts: 3,572
I'm art literate.
__________________
"mono has crazy flow and can rhyme words that shouldn't, like Eminem"
Drake Tungsten
"get contacts, get a haircut, get better clothes, and lose some weight"
Albert Speer
monolith94 is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:00   #8
Verto
Apolyton Storywriters' GuildNationStatesMac
King
 
Verto's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,824
Because the art I like is not the modern-throw-some-paint-at-canvas art.

I doubt anyone wants to talk about, say, Thomas Kinkade, since he's probably not considered avant garde by the psuedo-intellectuals.

Verto is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:02   #9
Oncle Boris
Mac
Emperor
 
Oncle Boris's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Directly from the FART international airport
Posts: 3,045
Quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
Does the "we" include yourself, or are you, Boris, the only guy at Poly who's not illiterate in this matter?
I don't know if it includes myself.

Illiterate was not the exact word, I fear. It has more to do with the (wrong IMO) conception that art is purely subjective, that if you like it then it's fine, etc.

I had thought Brecht would have put the last nail on the coffin of this dumb idea.
__________________
"Now you're gonna ask me, is it an enforcer's job to drop the gloves against the other team's best player? Well sure no, but you've gotta know, these guys, they don't think like you and me." (Jol Bouchard, commenting on the Gaborik-Carcillo incident).
Oncle Boris is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:04   #10
Oncle Boris
Mac
Emperor
 
Oncle Boris's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Directly from the FART international airport
Posts: 3,045
Quote:
Originally posted by Verto
Because the art I like is not the modern-throw-some-paint-at-canvas art.

I doubt anyone wants to talk about, say, Thomas Kinkade, since he's probably not considered avant garde by the psuedo-intellectuals.
This is a problem, too. There is nothing wrong with traditional stuff. However, by definition, art has to be in some part avant-garde. When it ceases to be, it becomes a social construct at the hand of the ruling elite.

(Though some would argue that even the avant garde is a social construct used by the elite, which is another debate).
__________________
"Now you're gonna ask me, is it an enforcer's job to drop the gloves against the other team's best player? Well sure no, but you've gotta know, these guys, they don't think like you and me." (Jol Bouchard, commenting on the Gaborik-Carcillo incident).
Oncle Boris is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:06   #11
monolith94
Mac
Emperor
 
monolith94's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: New England
Posts: 3,572
That's a good painting, but your snotty attitude actually makes me want to like it less.
__________________
"mono has crazy flow and can rhyme words that shouldn't, like Eminem"
Drake Tungsten
"get contacts, get a haircut, get better clothes, and lose some weight"
Albert Speer
monolith94 is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:08   #12
joncha
MacNationStates
Emperor
 
joncha's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:38
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 7,173
Quote:
Originally posted by Verto
Because the art I like is not the modern-throw-some-paint-at-canvas art.

I doubt anyone wants to talk about, say, Thomas Kinkade, since he's probably not considered avant garde by the psuedo-intellectuals.

[img]
Verto! Are you sure you're not really my grandmother? The similarity in taste is uncanny.

jon.
__________________
If Tehben spits eggs at you, jump on them and throw them back. ~ WTF is Eventis? ~ Belgium Doesn't Exist!

And just in case a disputant, calls you to dispute about their claims,
Do not, then, dispute on them, except by way of an external dispute.
joncha is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:09   #13
Asher
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
President of the OT
 
Asher's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
That's because people who insist they know art have crap taste. It's a no-win situation.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
Asher is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:10   #14
Oncle Boris
Mac
Emperor
 
Oncle Boris's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Directly from the FART international airport
Posts: 3,045
Quote:
Originally posted by joncha


Verto! Are you sure you're not really my grandmother? The similarity in taste is uncanny.

jon.
__________________
"Now you're gonna ask me, is it an enforcer's job to drop the gloves against the other team's best player? Well sure no, but you've gotta know, these guys, they don't think like you and me." (Jol Bouchard, commenting on the Gaborik-Carcillo incident).
Oncle Boris is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:11   #15
Asher
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
President of the OT
 
Asher's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
Quote:
Originally posted by Verto
Because the art I like is not the modern-throw-some-paint-at-canvas art.

I doubt anyone wants to talk about, say, Thomas Kinkade, since he's probably not considered avant garde by the psuedo-intellectuals.

We have several Thomas Kinkade paintings, and they really are nice.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
Asher is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:11   #16
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Quote:
There is nothing wrong with traditional stuff. However, by definition, art has to be in some part avant-garde. When it ceases to be, it becomes a social construct at the hand of the ruling elite.
This is a problem. That art which is 'hand of the elite' is automatically bad. Bah!
__________________
I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:12   #17
Verto
Apolyton Storywriters' GuildNationStatesMac
King
 
Verto's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,824
Quote:
Originally posted by monolith94
That's a good painting, but your snotty attitude actually makes me want to like it less.
Are you talking to me?


Verto is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:12   #18
Oncle Boris
Mac
Emperor
 
Oncle Boris's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Directly from the FART international airport
Posts: 3,045
Quote:
Originally posted by Asher
That's because people who insist they know art have crap taste. It's a no-win situation.
I had once this cinema class where the teacher showed us a very long and drawn movie, with no real beginning and ending, no climax, no resolution of conflict, etc.

Of course, most of the class complained. Then he made a speech as to how Art was like a refined roquefort: you have to practice your taste in order to enjoy it. I agree.
__________________
"Now you're gonna ask me, is it an enforcer's job to drop the gloves against the other team's best player? Well sure no, but you've gotta know, these guys, they don't think like you and me." (Jol Bouchard, commenting on the Gaborik-Carcillo incident).
Oncle Boris is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:14   #19
monolith94
Mac
Emperor
 
monolith94's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: New England
Posts: 3,572


The bronze cast you see in the foreground is a sculpture of a person's head. I had to write a paper on it and a painting in this exhibit. It was one of the more interesting assignments I've had.
__________________
"mono has crazy flow and can rhyme words that shouldn't, like Eminem"
Drake Tungsten
"get contacts, get a haircut, get better clothes, and lose some weight"
Albert Speer
monolith94 is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:14   #20
Verto
Apolyton Storywriters' GuildNationStatesMac
King
 
Verto's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,824
You mean, force yourself to believe something is good, because others do?
Verto is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:15   #21
Verto
Apolyton Storywriters' GuildNationStatesMac
King
 
Verto's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,824
Quote:
Originally posted by joncha


Verto! Are you sure you're not really my grandmother? The similarity in taste is uncanny.

jon.
I hope not.
Verto is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:16   #22
Oncle Boris
Mac
Emperor
 
Oncle Boris's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Directly from the FART international airport
Posts: 3,045
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
This is a problem. That art which is 'hand of the elite' is automatically bad. Bah!
You agree or not? Well, since you are you and I am me, I don't expect much.

The reason why 'ruling class' art is bad is quite obvious. It is 'mythologic' in nature, in that it uses language (a moving media) to fix history (stagnate it) in a balanced, pleasing representation, destined to manipulate the masses.
__________________
"Now you're gonna ask me, is it an enforcer's job to drop the gloves against the other team's best player? Well sure no, but you've gotta know, these guys, they don't think like you and me." (Jol Bouchard, commenting on the Gaborik-Carcillo incident).
Oncle Boris is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:18   #23
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Quote:
The reason why 'ruling class' art is bad is quite obvious. It is 'mythologic' in nature, in that it uses language (a moving media) to fix history (stagnate it) in a balanced, pleasing representation, destined to manipulate the masses.
And this is bad 'art' because...?

The Sistine Chapel was commissioned by the elites, that doesn't mean it isn't amazing.
__________________
I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:20   #24
monolith94
Mac
Emperor
 
monolith94's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: New England
Posts: 3,572
"I had once this cinema class where the teacher showed us a very long and drawn movie, with no real beginning and ending, no climax, no resolution of conflict, etc."

L'Aventurra?

"That's because people who insist they know art have crap taste. It's a no-win situation."

You have no right to talk, mister. We've all seen your desktop background!
__________________
"mono has crazy flow and can rhyme words that shouldn't, like Eminem"
Drake Tungsten
"get contacts, get a haircut, get better clothes, and lose some weight"
Albert Speer
monolith94 is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:21   #25
joncha
MacNationStates
Emperor
 
joncha's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:38
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 7,173
I figured that since I jumped all over Verto, it's only fair game that I post some of my "art."

This is the current wallpaper on my desktop. I likes it.
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	lissitsky_wedge.jpg
Views:	75
Size:	184.3 KB
ID:	65995  
__________________
If Tehben spits eggs at you, jump on them and throw them back. ~ WTF is Eventis? ~ Belgium Doesn't Exist!

And just in case a disputant, calls you to dispute about their claims,
Do not, then, dispute on them, except by way of an external dispute.
joncha is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:23   #26
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
I like Verto's art .
__________________
I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:23   #27
Verto
Apolyton Storywriters' GuildNationStatesMac
King
 
Verto's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,824
Must...avert...eyes...

Verto is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:24   #28
BeBro
Emperor
 
BeBro's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,278
Quote:
Originally posted by Oncle Boris
(...)destined to manipulate the masses.
Isn't in a certain sense any form of art manipulating? Not that I think art is generally brainwashing, but it appeals to our senses.....
__________________
Banana
BeBro is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:25   #29
Oncle Boris
Mac
Emperor
 
Oncle Boris's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Directly from the FART international airport
Posts: 3,045
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Quote:
The reason why 'ruling class' art is bad is quite obvious. It is 'mythologic' in nature, in that it uses language (a moving media) to fix history (stagnate it) in a balanced, pleasing representation, destined to manipulate the masses.
And this is bad 'art' because...?

The Sistine Chapel was commissioned by the elites, that doesn't mean it isn't amazing.
Yes. When talking about art, we need to make a distinction between anything prior to the 19th century and the rest.

We also need to make the distinction between technical prowess (inherent to painting, sculpture) with the rest.

Finally, you have to keep in mind that it was only with the appearance of cartoons and cinema that art was destined directly for the masses. Understanding the Sistine chapel requires erudition, that was highly unlikely held by the masses of the Italian Renaissance.
__________________
"Now you're gonna ask me, is it an enforcer's job to drop the gloves against the other team's best player? Well sure no, but you've gotta know, these guys, they don't think like you and me." (Jol Bouchard, commenting on the Gaborik-Carcillo incident).
Oncle Boris is offline  
Old March 1, 2004, 22:28   #30
Verto
Apolyton Storywriters' GuildNationStatesMac
King
 
Verto's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:38
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,824
Quote:
Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Finally, you have to keep in mind that it was only with the appearance of cartoons and cinema that art was destined directly for the masses.
Not true.
Verto is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 14:38.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright The Apolyton Team